Do you feel connected to the people around you? Do you struggle to get close to those you care about? In this episode I want to discuss how Stoicism can help you develop deeper and more connected relationships with the people in your life.
“One of the most beautiful qualities of true friendship is to understand and to be understood.”
—Seneca
We all crave connection. We all want to feel close to other people, and to have strong connections. Feeling connected and having a close tribe of people is not only important to our mental health, but also to our physical health. In study after study it’s been shown that one of the biggest predictors of living longer and healthier is having a close circle of friends. It’s also one of the key factors for helping those who are recovering from addiction. But in our modern world it’s easy to find ourselves being less connected to others even as we have all this technology that is supposed to connect people.
So this episode came about because a close friend of mine requested that I talk about how Stoicism can help us create better connections with people. I know that might sound kind of strange, given how Stoicism has a reputation for emotional disconnection, but that’s where really understanding how Stoics view emotions is important.
The Stoic Theory of Emotions
The Stoics have a theory of emotions, call apatheia.Apatheia, not to be confused with the English word “apathy”, is a Greek word that comes from a– meaning ”without” and pathos, meaning “suffering” or “passion”. Now the definition of passion in this context means negative emotions such as anger or extreme sadness. So the Stoics believed that we should do our best to remove negative emotions in our lives because they cause unnecessary suffering in our lives.
The Stoics hold that we have negative emotions in our lives because of our misjudgments about events and circumstances around us. As Epictetus reminds us, “It’s not things that cause our distress, but our judgments about them.” Simply put, it’s our perspective, the thoughts and stories in our minds that cause the emotions that we feel, so when we feel negative emotions, it’s because of the thoughts we have about things.
“But wait,” you ask. “You mean to tell me that if I feel angry or upset or sad it’s because I decided to feel that that way?” Well, yes. Every emotion that we feel is because of thought going on inside our heads. We may not even be completely aware of what we’re thinking, but every emotion is caused by a thought in our head.
If you think this is a little strange, it’s because we’re never really taught to think about emotions this way. We just assume that emotions happen and we have no control over them. But let’s dissect this a little further. How many times have you been in a good mood then you start thinking about a sad experience that happened in your life, only to find your good mood has been replaced by sadness?
For example, let’s say you’re walking along somewhere and you came across a restaurant where you and your ex-partner used to go. It brings up memories about how things didn’t work out and you feel the pangs of regret for things you said and did.
Or maybe you have a memory about a parent or grandparent who passed away and you miss them. There again, it’s the story you’re telling yourself at that moment that is causing that emotion. The same goes for when you’re feeling angry or frustrated — it’s the thoughts in your mind, your perspective on the situation is what is causing the emotions that you feel.
Dichotomy of Control
Another concept that we need to dig into is the Dichotomy of Control. The Stoics teach that we need to understand what we have control over and what we don’t. So what do we have control over? Epictetus gives a really clear list: “Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our actions.”
Simply put, we have control over our perspective, opinions, desires, and our actions. Everything else is outside of our control. Everything. Even our bodies. I mean, you can’t control if you get cancer or an illness. You can, however, control your opinion, what you do in response to the things outside yourself. You control your perspective and your actions.
“I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others.”
—Marcus Aurelius
But in that list of things outside of our control is a gem that we really need to unpack: our reputation. Our reputation is always a tender spot for us. We spend a lot of time time worrying about what others think of us, and we also spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to control what other think of us. It’s like Marcus Aurelius explains, “I have often wondered how it is that every man loves himself more than all the rest of men, but yet sets less value on his own opinion of himself than on the opinion of others.”
We want to be liked. We want others to think good things about us.
But much to our dismay, other people are outside of our control. I know that’s often a hard pill to swallow but it’s the truth. It’s a realization that most of us reach at some point in our lives, as much as we might wish otherwise. Even a tyrant with absolute authority can’t control what others think about them. If this were the case then Julius Caesar would have had nothing to worry about. In the immortal words of Brook Castillo, my favorite life coach, “What other people think about me is none of my business.”
So how do these concepts come together to help us to better connect those around us? How does understanding what we control and how emotions are created help us to be better partners, parents, and friends?
Well let’s put the pieces together, shall we?
First and foremost is that we now understand that we can’t control other people, only ourselves. And if we’re honest, other people don’t like being controlled. We also don’t like it when other people try to control us (unless you’re into that kind of thing – no judgment here). We need to understand that what other people think of us, how they respond to us, or how they act in any situation is not up to us. We have to respect the fact that they autonomous beings that will think, say, and do things that are not up to us, and that there will be plenty of things they do that we might not like.
Authenticity
But this news, rather than being a downer, should be a relief. It’s one (or many) things that you can stop trying to control. One more thing off your plate. When you let go of any notion that you can control others, it allows you to focus on what you can control in your relationships—yourself. You work on how YOU want to show up. You make decisions about who you want to be, how you respond, and what actions you take. You take responsibility for your thoughts, choices, and actions, and let others be responsible for theirs.
This new found freedom allows us to be authentically ourselves.
This is especially liberating for people pleasers because we stop worrying about if we say the right thing to get the other person to like us. When we try to figure out the “right” thing to say, in a sense, we’re lying and trying to manipulate others. If they don’t like what we have to say, how they feel about it is their responsibility, not ours. Now keep in mind this doesn’t mean that you can say whatever you want and be free of consequences. It simply means that you aren’t responsible for their emotions. We should still be kind and compassionate, but we should also be honest, communicate clearly, and most importantly, take responsibility for our emotions.
Boundaries
As humans, we often try to control others through emotional manipulation by blaming others for how we feel and expecting them to change to suit us. By taking responsibility for our own emotions and actions, and not taking on the responsibility for others emotions and actions, we’re better able to set boundaries for ourselves. We decide how we allow others to treat us, because the the flip side of not controlling others, is that others can’t control us either, unless we let them.
While we’re talking about boundaries, remember that boundaries are not about telling the other person what to do. Remember that part about not controlling other people? Setting boundaries is all about letting the other person know how you will respond. You’re taking control of what you can, namely, yourself.
Emotions in Relationships
So where does apatheia fit in to all this? Well, I’m glad you asked.
Relationships are challenging because they’re all about emotional connections. How we feel about events and circumstances are created by what we think of them. People are the same. We make judgments and form opinions about others which create the emotions that we feel about them.
For example, I love my father, even though he was often violent and angry when I was growing up. I focus on the things that I loved about him—his humor, his intelligence, his curiosity, and even his kindness. I also accept that he was a conflicted and complicated person, dealing with his own demons. I choose what I think and how feel about him, without having to change who he was, since he passed away when I was 24. It’s not delusional or ignoring his actions, but a rational and deliberate choice from my side to love him as the wonderful and deeply flawed person he was.
Apatheia also means that we have a choice in how in interpret what others do or say in our relationships. We often take our emotional reaction to a situation create stories in our minds about what it means. We make assumptions, and assign motives to others actions based on our observations, and often we’re wrong. If we can suspend our judgments, we have some space to think about the situation and try to shift to a more compassionate perspective. We can begin see how our emotions might be clouding our judgments.
Now, this doesn’t mean that we ignore our emotions. Emotions are very important signals that have kept humans alive throughout history. But often times we feel something really strongly, usually because of some kind of fear, and we react to it. But sometimes our nervous system doesn’t do a good job of distinguishing between some of our base emotions. There is a big difference between the fear of disappointing a partner or friend, and being chased by a saber toothed tiger. If we’re not in any mortal danger, taking a moment to consider how we’re feeling and choosing how we want to respond can keep a disagreement from spiraling into something worse.
Vulnerability
Probably the best way that controlling what you can and being aware of your thoughts as creators of our emotions can help us the most is when it comes to being vulnerable with other people. I know that sounds strange, but hear me out. Being vulnerable is one of the most important aspects of connecting with others at an emotional level. The more honest and vulnerable we can be with others, the more trust it creates for both people involved and the stronger the connection.
Being vulnerable can feel very scary. When we share something that is important and a bit raw for us, we’re worried about what the other person might think about us. Will they hate us? Will they laugh at us? It’s uncomfortable to say the least. But, this is where you have to let go of trying to control what others think about us. Seneca writes, “We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality.”
We should be vulnerable with others because it’s what we want to do, not because we expect a certain reaction from another person. It’s always possible that they will react in a way we don’t like, and that’s something that is not in our control. We need to let go of any expectation of how we want them to respond. As Epictetus reminds us, “The more we value things outside our control, the less control we have.”
When we’re vulnerable with someone and they don’t respond how we want, we also have to remember that what we feel about their response is coming from our thoughts about it. This is what Epictetus means when he said, “It is not events that disturb people, it is their judgements concerning them.”
Basically, we create a story about what their response means. If you share something vulnerable without attachment to any particular response, then you allow the other person to genuinely share how they feel about something as well. Letting go of expectations can really go a long way in fostering vulnerability on both sides.
“It is not events that disturb people, it is their judgements concerning them.”
—Epictetus
Conclusion
Connection with others is one of the most important things for us as humans. We’re hardwired to connect because we couldn’t survive in the world without other people. It’s also what gives life meaning. By understanding that we only control how we show up and not trying to control what others do or say can go a long way towards strengthening connections with others. We take responsibility for our emotions and actions, and not the emotions and actions of others, which allows us to be more vulnerable. We’re better able to accept others for who they are because we recognize that we can’t change them.
So the next time you find yourself struggling in your connections with others, think on what Marcus Aurelius said: “Everywhere, at each moment, you have the option: to accept this event with humility; to treat this person as they should be treated; to approach this thought with care, so that nothing irrational creeps in.”
Erick: Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic philosophy and my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break.
Now this week's episode is another interview episode. I had the pleasure of interviewing J. R. Martinez. He's an Iraqi war vet and a motivational speaker and he won the Dancing with the Stars contest/competition just a couple of years ago. We had a fun and very interesting interview talking about all different aspects of life, overcoming challenges, and how learning how to control what you can't and letting go of what you can't can make your life just that much better.
So this was a really enjoyable interview. I also want to apologize that, for whatever reason, Zoom switched my mic on me, so my side doesn't sound as good as it normally does, because it was using my computer mic instead of my regular professional mic. So I apologize for that rookie mistake on my side for not checking those things.
Anyway, I really hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I enjoyed making it. Thanks again for listening.
J.R.: First and foremost, we're human. And I think that's one of the biggest things I tell people is that, you know, for what people think of when they think of me or what people know of me, they immediately think of like, Oh, you, you just must wake up like Mickey mouse, like, and everything's okay today.
It's going to be a great day. And it's like, no, it's not like that. Right. And that's why I tell you have to practice positivity daily. You have to practice. You know stoicism daily you have to practice whatever it is that you follow that keeps you grounded And allows you to be able to show up in the way that you want to be able to show up Um, you have to practice that every day because there's going to be so many things outside of your control that are going to challenge you and I think that's when you know, listen not to get too deep into this, but You know, I grew up in a very catholic home.
My mother, you know catholic and went to church and um You And my mother was all about, you know, obviously God and, you know, but we're Hispanic. So we believe in like every Saint that existed. Um, and you know, it's like, well, you pray to this Saint because this Saint does this. You pray to that Saint because that Saint does that.
And so there's all these, you can't keep up with all of them. And, um, but I remember, you know, one of the conflicts my mother and I had, you know, years ago was, you know, she talked about faith so much. And I said, you know, faith isn't about having it and, and, and, and reciting scriptures and what, you know, whatever sermon you heard when things are good.
It's about when things are challenging, it's how do you then get to that foundation that you say you have in this and pull from that, that's going to allow you to keep a level head. That's going to allow you to believe that there is, if you believe there is a, you know, Being that is essentially controlling and there's all a purpose of it all then you got to buy into that and you got to believe that And that's always been a challenge i've had not only with my mother and religion But just with people in general like people are so gung ho about this and gung ho about that And then shit hits the fan and people are like, oh my god, I don't know and it's like, okay You're allowed to be human and grieve it and process it and have raw, real emotions about it.
But then at a certain point, you have to then identify that's consuming a lot of your life, a lot of your day. What do I do differently? And if you like that feeling, then cool. But I'm gonna tell you one thing, don't come back to me talking about, this is my anchor. Well, because when I saw shit hit the fan, that anchor didn't help you at all.
That, that thing did not stick, that thing was moving and you were being drifted off into the sea. And so, you know, it's, uh, I think, you know, anyways, that's, that's one of those things JR tends to do is go on a rant for no apparent reason. Just what was on my head.
Erick: Yeah, no, I, I understand that. So I. You know, this is one of the things the Stoics talk about a lot is that it's not about upholding your principles when it's easy, it's about upholding them when it's hard.
That's what's important, you know, because anybody can do, do the right thing when it's easy, you know, like, you know, if it doesn't, if it doesn't cost you much, it's not a struggle. It's not anything that puts you out of your way. It's not anything that really, really challenges you. Of course, you can do the right thing.
But when it's challenging, when you have something before you that, pushes you, tests you, that makes you really, really stay up at night. Like, you know, ethical challenges, for example, it's like, well, you could do this and you probably wouldn't get caught doing it and you would make this much amount of money.
You know, but it's not the right thing to do. And you're going to be sitting there going, well, but if you have, like you said, if you have that anchor, it's not even a question you just simply go, no, that's just not in my wheelhouse. That's not part of my, that's not how I want to live my life. And even if it's easy money, even if I would never get caught doing that.
It's still not the right thing to do. And, you know, and when you find difficult challenges, the same thing, it's like, it doesn't matter how easy or how hard it is. It's like you, your values and your virtues aren't worth anything if they're only applicable when it's easy. And I think that, yeah, it's the same thing.
Like you were saying, you know, they're losing their shit when, you know, something gets hard and it's like, well, don't you have this faith that you've been, you've been relying on, or you say is so important to you lean on that. Yeah,
J.R.: exactly. Like, like, I mean, I can't tell you how many things outside of the obvious that has happened to me where I've just been like.
I got to trust. I don't know what the hell is coming up. I don't know why this happened. I don't understand this at all, but I just got to trust and the shit sucks right now, but I just got to trust. And, you know, it's like that thing. It's, it's, um, The Gandhi quote where it says, Oh God, I'm going to mess it up.
I, I hate when I do that. Like, I'm like, so and so said, and then people are like, what did he say? Or what'd she say? And then I'm like, well, I'm gonna fuck up the quote. But essentially what they said was this, that the people were like, Oh, like it just completely loses its, its power. It's sting. But you know, where Gandhi said like the best way to, to heal was essentially to like lose yourself and other people like doing for others and and you know, it's so true however, I always tell people it's like that doesn't necessarily mean that you just Like you're not paying attention. You're not aware. You're not understanding, you know, the conversations and the things that are happening around you, because all of that, you know, you're talking about software, everything, you know, and technology is about data.
Everything that we gather in the world is about data. Companies are gathering data. You know, brands that data getting feedback, getting information, surveys are being sent out nonstop. Hey, Erick, what could we have done differently? Hey, Jr. What did you like about this? What didn't you like about this data, data, data, data, data, and the more data that you get, you essentially break all that down and it allows us to be more efficient, to be able to create a product or to maybe eliminate a product in order for, to, to make more money, serve more people, have more success.
And I tell people, I was like, I think that's one of the things that has allowed me to succeed is that yes, I have immersed myself in, or in a lot of phases of my life, trying to help other people because it felt right. Not because I felt like, well, I'm going to get something out of this. Like I'm going to learn something.
No, I just felt the right thing to do. But in the mix of me losing myself. And those people in their situations, I also was equally paying attention. I was paying attention to conversations that were being had. I was paying attention to my environment. I was paying attention to a lot of things and all I was essentially doing in some cases, subconsciously.
And I didn't realize it. I'm just gathering data. I'm just getting all this information, this immediate feedback of you, CJR, when you thought this, see how this worked out for that. You, when you felt this, you see. Someone else felt that say like, and so you have to, as much as it's good to get out of your own way and beat in and like lean into other people, it's equally important to not necessarily just means that you forget about everything and just be distracted.
Like there's a time and place for that as well. Like everything's just this weird balance, right? We're all really. Really, we're all gymnasts just trying to, like, trying to stay on the beam as long as we possibly can. I mean, that's really what it comes down to. And you don't do it perfectly well, but as long as you're willing to take that hit and get your ass back up there, I think, you know, you'll be able to stand a little bit longer than the last time.
Erick: Well, it reminds me of what you were saying just to kind of double back and then we'll do the intro because they haven't done that yet. Um, Simon Sinek talked about the best way to get somebody to solve their own problem is to have them help somebody else solve that same problem. Yeah. You know, he, he talks about how the best way, you know, when somebody comes up to him and do things like, I don't have any friends, how do we make more friends?
Well, why don't you go help somebody else learn how to make friends? You know, it's that idea of you doing is teaching not only to the other person or you teaching is how you learn. And so in a way, how you serve is how you learn as well. And I thought it was a really interesting take because he had a friend of his who was having some problems and they would sit and talk and, um, he found that they would have these, you know, discussions and they would sit and talk and she would talk all about her problems, all about her problems, all about her problems. And then he found that she wasn't making much progress on this, even though they were having a weekly meeting on this.
And finally, he said, how about we do this? I get, you know, half the time is mine and I get to talk about my problems and you help me solve those. And then the other half the time is work on your problems. She's like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That sounds good. And then within like a week and a half, she finally, because she was helping him, she was then able to solve her problem.
And it was because she was so stuck in the me, me, me mode that when she got out of herself and start serving, then things started to fall into place. And I thought it was really interesting.
J.R.: Yeah. Uh, you know now, and I remember the Gandhi quote, is, the best way to find yourself is to lose your, lose yourself in the service of others.
That's what, yeah, I just had That wasn't for you. That was for me purely ego driven.
Erick: All right, so before we already kinda jumped into this, but um, but I think we have some good stuff there, so I definitely want to keep it in. So go ahead and introduce yourself, tell my audience what you're about, um, and. Uh, yeah, I think it's just go from there.
J.R.: Oh man, what is JR about? It's, you know, it's, it's one of those questions like now I started doing yoga more frequently and, and I've done it over the years and it's just been sporadic. But then now at this stage of my life, I'm trying to be more consistent with it. Just because one physically, my body's like, dude, stop trying to throw these weights around.
Stop trying to run this this distance.
Erick: Yeah, I do yoga 10 minutes every morning.
J.R.: Yeah. Like just, just, just be, just, just move, just stretch, just, you know, use your body weight. Like, I mean, it's like, and, and, you know, and, and the mental and the emotional and the spiritual, um, practice is to me is what's so incredible. And, you know, I know when you start class.
At least one of the instructors, she's always like, okay, we're going to start with a little meditation and she always says. She always asks, what's your intention? What's your intention for these next 60 minutes? And I find myself when she poses this question, meanwhile, everyone's eyes are closed or they're staring off like, you know, one's really looking around the room.
But in my mind, I feel like, oh my God, like I'm going to be called on. Like there's going to, there's, there's this, there's this, This class participation that clearly I have PTSD from, from my youth of where it's like, JR, it's your turn to read. And I'm like, no, I don't want to read. You know, like when you're like, you anticipate that it's coming to you.
So you try to read ahead just so you can kind of like, okay, work through it in your brain. And then when it gets to you, either you're off or the pressure that becomes too much and you still jack it up. But like, it's such a simple question. As far as what's your intention for this class for the next 60 minutes, what is your intention?
And it's not a question. It's not something that I think most of us practice frequently to think about what's our attention in our relationship. What's our intention with our relationship with, you know, if there's a partner, a friend, children, a coworker with ourselves, right? Because intimacy, you know, we talk about intimacy.
And then when you say the word in certain circles, especially. The guys were like, start getting all giddy and stuff. And you're like, dude, no intimacy before you can talk about intimacy with anybody else. You got to be able to be able to have intimacy with yourself. And again, I don't mean that in the inappropriate way.
It's just more like, can you, do you have the emotional intelligence to be able to show up for yourself, for your own emotions, for your own thoughts? Um, that's important. And so. You know, when you ask this question, as far as like, tell people about who you are and what you're about, I'm like, Oh, Oh, that question, you know, usually, I mean, usually Erick, people do all the work for me and I just didn't have to kind of answer in this case.
You're like, Hey, no, you tell us who you are, which is not a question that most of us get frequently. You tell me who you are. Most of us are like, this is who you are based on information that you either provided and you spent a lot of money to a, uh, a copywriter or marketing firm per word. And so they make this lengthy bio that's pretty much redundant as if they're trying to meet a word count, you know, for a professor, um, you know, But who am I?
What am I about, you know? I think I'm an individual that despite all the things that I've managed to get into and I know we'll probably touch on some of that I think one of the biggest things that I am and I'm most proud of is I'm a cycle breaker and I You know grew up in in a very difficult challenging childhood.
And yes, there were some positives, of course, but there were definitely some challenges and some things that could have easily derailed me and set me on a different trajectory in life. But, um, you know, I, you know, have, my father wasn't in my life. I was raised by a single mother and as much as my mom did as Best as she could with what she had, my mother was a hurt woman and my mother, unfortunately, there were some things that, you know, I was exposed to some things, you know, she, uh, she exposed me to some things that, you know, she probably not intentionally, but some, some sort of behavioral traits and patterns and things that, I mean, there's a book it's called walking on eggshells and I read it years ago and it's such an incredible book.
And when I read it, I just like, ah, like that's. Because that's how I felt a lot of my youth. My mother would get triggered by these different things, whether they were related to me or not. And I'd come home from school and walk in the house and I immediately knew, Oh, Oh shit. She is not in the best mood.
And I immediately started to learn how to walk on eggshells. And then it became this thing of where it's my responsibility to make her happy. How do I make her laugh? That's one of the reasons I'm such a jokester. I think she was my audience. I mean, I was always working through material with her, whether I realize it or not, and.
You know, and so I've As a parent now of two, I diligently try to break that cycle and to show up differently for my kids. Um, but I'm also an individual man that is, you know, that just loves, I'm incredibly curious. Uh, I love people, even though there's a lot of people that have a lot of shit and a lot of baggage and, and it's hard to love some people, but I love people.
I love listening to people. I love hearing what people have been through, what they've learned, what they haven't learned. Um, I just love conversation. And, uh, that gets me into these very long conversations at the grocery store when I only have 10 minutes and somehow I'm there for 45 minutes and I haven't picked up.
Anything and my wife is calling me like where are you and I'm like, oh my god, I ran into this person You'll never believe it and blah blah blah and she's like Dinner's ready. And I'm like, okay, I'll be there in a second. And then of course I show up 30 minutes later, right. Even though the store is five minutes away, but I just, I love learning and I've done a lot of learning.
I still have a lot more learning to do. Um, and, and I'm, I'd like to believe that I'm looking, you know, my, my buddy said this to me the other day, we were catching up, he was in the military, he was injured and he actually stayed in the military, completed this 20 years, and then after that. Went into social work and has become a therapist.
And I mean, one of the coolest, most genuine down to earth people I've ever known, big heart. He's not a, a polished guy in a sense of where like, you're going to put him on TV. Like he's going to go through like, Hey, you better get your shit together. That's kind of how he, that's kind of how he gets down.
And we were catching up the other day and he said to me, He said, you know, man, he's like, I like trauma, not drama. And I was like, you know, I marinated on that and the, and I was like, man, that's so good. And. And I'd marinated on that. And the reason why is because I'm a person that when somebody is going through something, like I like to show up for you, but the minute that someone is like, it's drama, then you see a different side of me where I'm like, I don't want to hear this shit.
I don't have time for this. I don't have the energy for it. I won't listen. I'm not curious about that. I don't do drama, but if there's some trauma, Hey, you know what? I'll roll up my sleeves. I'll lean in with you. But drama? Nah, keep me out of it. Find someone else to roll with for that. So, I mean, that's a very long winded answer to your question.
But, you know, I think it's one of those questions that I had to work through, honestly, to get to where I got to.
Erick: It's interesting. We have a lot in common. So my, my father was that same way. So he, you could come in and you would think things to be fine and boom, you know, you, you slam the refrigerator too loud or something like that.
And suddenly he's on you. And it's just, it was, it made for a very anxious prone growing up because you never knew if dad was just going to flip out sometime and from zero to 60 in, you know, no time flat. And. It was really sad because he was generous and kind and funny and incredibly intelligent, uh, super curious about a lot of things.
But then other times it was like, it was like living with an alcoholic, but there was no bottle to tell you, Hey, stay away from dad tonight. And, uh, I, yeah, I know exactly what that's like. And it's, yeah, it makes it hard to trust other people that when they say they have your back or that they love you, that they really do.
J.R.: Yeah, it is, you know, it's, it's Uh, you know, and not to, you know, derail, like sort of the direction you want this to go into. But, you know, I always find these podcasts are really fascinating because it's, it's, it's, you know, I tell people it's like, it's like a, it's a free therapy session in some cases.
And then it's also like, you know, where it's not, you're intending, intending it to be. But it just kind of takes that path and that direction. And you just, again, the mood is set and you just kind of lean into it. But, you know, my mom was, my mom had been through a lot. And, you know, my mom, you know, I forgive my mother.
Not that I ever felt that I needed to forgive my mother. Um, you know, I just, I never felt that way, but my mom, I guess maybe the guilt when I became an adult, she would say, Oh, you don't like, you don't talk to me because that I did this. And I'm like, I've never even thought about that. Like I, I, I actually.
Maybe in some way, either repress that memory, um, just as a defense mechanism to protect myself or because I've just more focused on the other positive things, the great memories that I just haven't really thought about it. But clearly you keep bringing it up. It must be something that weighs on you. And.
You know, one of those examples was my mother, you know, said to me multiple times as an adult, she said, you know, like, Oh, you have this resentment towards me because I put my hands on you when you were a kid. Now, let me clarify, you know, I'm not sure of your age. I'm 41 years old. Like you talk to anybody our age or older, and you talk about your parents putting their hands and we're all going to immediately start a circle and start reminiscing and sharing stories.
And we're gonna do it with a smile on our face about like, yeah, yeah, mom, your mom and mama will whoop our ass if this, this, this, right? Like, it's just sort of it was the culture. It was the culture. It was okay. Like where I grew up in the South. Capital punishment was a thing. I, at school, my mother gave approval that if I acted out instead of them having to call her, I would go to the principal's office and with the, with the wooden paddles, they would give me three licks and then send me back on my way.
Like it was, it was the way, the way of the world. It was no big deal. Um, however, my mother took it to a different, uh, gear in the sense of where, you know, I remember being a child. Um, and. You know, like, man, six, seven, nine, 12. And my mother would, and I'm going to use this word beat me. And, and it, and it wasn't like the fun, like, Oh, she got the bell or she got a switch.
Yeah, she did that too, but it got to a point and it evolved to a point where my mother would get a rope and she would literally tie my hands and my feet. So I couldn't get away and she would just stand over me and just hit me and I would go to school with these like lacerations all over my body. And I was always protecting my face, always protecting my face because that was my money maker.
And um, but I would go to school and again, I was, there was no space. No conversation of, for my mother of like, Hey, when you go to school, make sure no one sees that's those, those, those wounds on your body. No, I just, I had to protect my mom. She was all I had. So I would change in a separate part of the locker room.
I would make sure no one would see it. Like I was always protecting my mother and. You know, and those are things that I mean easily those are things for me to have resentment and Anger towards her but I never did I was focused on how my mother was just this incredibly vibrant individual big personality big laughter She's only five feet tall But she could fill a room with her energy that she focused in a lot of cases.
She would say to me You know, she was an abusive relationship. She, her mother gave her away. She was abused as a child. She lost the child when she was young. I mean, she's been through it, but culturally as a Hispanic woman, like you don't, you don't talk about these things. Like you just don't deal with it.
You just sort of like, you have to bury it and press on. And so anything that would trigger her, she just. When she got into a mood of like, I'm going to discipline my son, it everything just came out. It was just compounded. And I remember being around 12 years old one time, and she was standing over me and just just hated me.
And I remember looking up at her and looking at her in her eyes and just thinking to myself, like, she's not even there. Like, I don't even see her there. Like and thinking this isn't even about me. What she's doing right now isn't even about what's what I did. What I did does not warrant this. Yeah, I was a kid.
I was a boy like I did stupid shit like of course, but it doesn't warrant this and One of the craziest things After I was injured There was that whole navigation and identity that I was starting to kind of create and figure out who I was and where I fit in a society and, you know, all of the things, I mean, as a normal 19 year old or navigating those, those waters yet 19 years old with all of this, the scars, you know, it just amplifies everything.
And. And, uh, one day after a couple of years after I was injured, one day my best friend sat me down and he's like, man, you're, you need to cry. And I was like, I don't need to cry. I'm fine. He was like, no man, you need to cry. And we just started talking. I started crying and believe it or not, man, a lot of the stuff granted, yes, some of the stuff was about what happened to me and what I'm having to navigate in the world with scars on my body.
But a lot of it was. My youth, my childhood and how that was still weighing on me. And I ended up leaning in for me. It worked. And I went to therapy, traditional therapy. I found this incredible, I mean, I had to go a couple of people and finally found this lady who was in her seventies, probably late sixties.
And. She like, Oh my God, I, I, I tell my wife, I was like, yo, I would have married her in a heartbeat just because like, I was like, I just fell in love with her energy and the way she like, and she introduced this concept about you need to set up boundaries with your mother. And dude, when she said that, I was like, Andrews, with my mom, are you crazy?
We're Hispanic. We don't do that. Like, like, my mom's gonna, like, bring all the saints and pray for all the saints to come on, you know, on me and, and, like, no, you don't do that. And I realized that's what I needed to do because my mother would call me and because of her own fears that she had, you know, She created narratives that were never true.
And as far as like, Oh, you're getting success, you're gonna, you're not proud of me, or you're not proud that I'm your mother. Um, you, you find yourself in these certain circles. Um, you know, I'm not going to be good enough. Like I'm not educated enough. I don't know. Like I've never said those things. I've always elevated my mother.
And. But I just continuously this just became a pattern where it was just like draining me draining me draining me And to the point one day I said to my mom on the phone. I said mom. I love you Like I love you. You are my queen Um, you are the reason I am where I am. I was like and I will never waver from that however In order for me to really live the life that I deserve to live And you deserve to live a life as well I got to set up some boundaries.
Like I can't, when you call me and you want to marinate on things that happened two decades ago, that had none to do with me, first of all, like I can't keep doing this. And, and, and I remember my mother saying, fine, then I'll tell people I don't have a son and hung up. And that was the last thing that like, I mean, my mother and I haven't spoken and she's still alive.
We haven't spoken for four years now. Um, and you know, listen, yes. Does it pain me? Yes, because that's my mom. It's the only parent I had. Like, you know, I met my dad when I was in my late 30s, um, after he left when I was nine months old and that was an experience in itself. Um, but, um, It was just my mom and I for 18 years of my life before I joined the military.
And so of course, like I'm going to fill that void. But at the end of the day, I'm also, I've always truly believed until my mother actually leaned into a lot of that pain, those wounds that existed. If until she does, she is not going to have peace until she leaves this earth. That's just and and unfortunately, um, the hardest thing i've had to learn is that you can't save anybody.
You can't force anybody to do anything that they that you believe that they need to do and in reality they know they need to do but it's just too difficult to do because We spend so much of our energy just trying to control things and afraid and fear Fear of what might happen. And what we don't think of is fear.
This concept of like, we're afraid of this thing happening, this negative thing, death or losing, but what people don't realize is like, there's a. Like that fear is equally keeping you from even living Like it's actually getting in the way of you living and so the more it does that the more you die It's self inflicted in that point and in its own way and And so my mother and i'll just tell this quick story, but my mother I remember I was around six years old my mother was in this abusive relationship and and uh It was like a pattern with this guy for you know, a couple years A couple of years easily where, you know, any given weekend, he'd have a few, few too many Budweiser's and, um, that's just what he drank.
I'm not, no, no knock on Ann Iserbush. I'm just saying like, it could have been a Michelobulcher. I don't know, whatever. But the point is, that's what he would drink and he would have wait, you know, a few too many, something would cue him and he'd put his hands on my mom. And I would call the cops, they'd come and get him, take him away.
A few days later, he's back at the house, you know, and things would look good. And then all of a sudden they wouldn't. It's just a cycle. And one day, um, my mother and I are out and she's smiling, man. She's got this big beautiful vibrant smile and I'm looking at her like this curious kid I'm like and I finally asked her I was like, why are you smiling because I know I know what happened Why are you smiling and she's like I smile to invite the blessings if I sit here and just fixate on that event that happened I'm not gonna be able to receive and see the beautifulness that's coming our way You know, of course, as a kid, that didn't make any sense to me.
And as I got older and I started to experience my own adversity, I was like, Oh man, that makes so much sense. And it's such a beautiful way to look at it. However, given what I've told you and shared about my mother, that is a survival mechanism in the way that she was viewing it and the way that she was utilizing it, the way she was utilizing it was simply like, I need to, I need to look and find for something As if you're being carried down some river and you can't swim and the and the current's too strong And you're just reaching for branches and see if something you can just hold on to long enough She was just literally just reaching the problem was is that she wasn't when she held on to something and found something .She wasn't able really to then lean into like the blessings that really did exist in her life because then she was just worried about the fear of then losing or the next thing happening that branch breaking and now she'd be back into survival mode instead of her really leaning into like, Oh my God, thank God I'm here and, and I got this and, and that's been something that.
Indirectly, she's taught me, or as I've gone through my own adversity, I'm, yes, there was a period where I had just had to be a survivalist and just try to survive and make it through the day. But it got to a point where I'm like, okay, that's not sustainable. And that's not going to lead to true happiness.
Like, and I have to then, when I find these moments of where I'm able to come up for air, I have to then pay attention to the very thing that got me into that freaking water. In the first place, I got to, I got to train myself to learn how to swim. Like I got to train myself to do all these things. So hopefully I'm not in that space.
And if I am in that space, again, I don't react or respond the same way I just did. And. Someone asked me a question the other day. He said, does life get easier or harder? I said, Oh man. And I said, you know, I, you know, we don't, we can't predict the future. We don't know what the future, I mean, all of us have a definition of what hard is.
It's different for all of us. I said, but I could tell you the more that you're leaning in, the more that you're doing the work, the more that you're just in some cases being like the Forrest Gump and just kind of just going through the motions and, you know, and, and just kind of experiencing the journey and picking up things as you go versus being so.
Fixated and focus that you have tunnel vision and you're not able to see what's literally in front of you, not even like what's on your peripheral, what's right in front of you as like, but if you're able to do that and continuously lean in and do a lot of the work and sit in silence and reflect and, and have gratitude and pause, do those things.
Then I believe life gets easier because you. Are able to show up differently. You don't get rocked as easily as
Erick: you once used to. Yeah. For me, I see it as life doesn't get any easier. You just get better and stronger. Yep. And that's really, over time, if you choose to do so, that you become stronger so that what was once hard, you know, what would have been nearly impossible for me 10 years ago is very doable now, so that you can, you know, you just.
But that's like you said, you have to lean into that, you have to be willing to accept that, and you have to have the right perspective on it. And so for me, I'm at a position, like we were discussing at the very beginning of the podcast, where, I mean, this guy basically took 5, 500 euros from me, that's almost 6, 000.
And most people would be, you know, furious about that, and everybody's like, did it make you mad? I'm like, I was frustrated and I was disappointed. I was frustrated because I didn't get the apartment. I was disappointed because I didn't get the apartment, but I was also just disappointed in him because he was pretty nice guy.
And I, I thought this was, this was a good thing. And to have that happen, I was, that was the main thing. I was just frustrated that I didn't have the place that I wanted. And it was like, okay, and disappointed in this other person. And other than that, I just let it go. And people like, well, well, how? And I'm like, well, I just recognized that me getting mad about it would be me deciding to be in a bad mood about something that I can't change that I have no control over.
So I would put myself in a bad mood for a few days for what? Yeah. There's absolutely nothing I can do. So me being in a bad mood would be my choice. So why would I put myself in a bad mood on purpose? Yeah. Yeah, no, I never really thought of it that way. I'm like, because there's nothing I could do, there's absolutely nothing in this situation I could do out of my control.
J.R.: The only thing you do is, you know, in some cases there's, you know, processes and that are in place and that hopefully that you can maybe regain that or partial or maybe you won't, but that's all you can do is like, just do your due diligence and go through that process. But you're right, man. And I think that's the thing is that.
You know, at 19 years old when I was injured,
Erick: um, so before we go a little bit further, go ahead and talk about that with my audience so that they know where you're coming from. So, I mean, I've read, I've read your bio, so I know, but kind of explain. Yeah. When you talk about your injury.
J.R.: So I joined the military.
I joined the army after high school and I joined as, as an 11 Bravo and infantryman. Um, and six months later, I literally was on a plane going to war. This is in 2003. So, um, before the conflict in Iraq began and, um, And I'm less than a month by a few days into my deployment. I was driving a Humvee through a city car carbola when the front left tire, the Humvee that I was driving around over a roadside bomb.
And there were three other troops in the vehicle with me. They were all thrown out of the vehicle and they all walked away with minor physical injuries, but I was trapped inside. And. I was trapped inside for about five minutes and, um, listen, I can, I can, you know, I was conscious. I was in and out of consciousness.
I mean, I, I, but I, I remember a lot of the detail of what I saw, what I felt, um, what I kept thinking, what I kept saying to myself. I remember all of those things. And I can get into a lot of that detail here if, if, if you choose. But the thing that I feel like I have. Graduated from the, the details, if you will, like of those, those five minutes that almost was taking, was attempting to take my life, graduated from just focusing a lot of the pain and seeing my body change to, you know, There's something else that I should be focusing on.
And what that is, is that in the mix of those five minutes, so I, yes, I had sustained burns to, you know, over my body, um, little over 30 percent third degree burns on my face, on my head, hands, arms, part of my legs, part of my back. Um, but obviously it's on my face, it's on my head. It's very visible. There's no way to hide it.
Um, and so I could see my hands changing. Like, I mean, I don't need to get more graphic than that. Like, I think people understand what I mean. But the thing that, as much as I sustained the physical burns, the thing at the time that was threatening whether I was going to make it or not was the fact that I had a broken rib.
Um, I had lacerated liver. Um, I couldn't, it was hard for me to get oxygen. So in the midst of me trying to like gasp for air, not realizing it, I was inhaling the smoke from the fire, which was obviously doing more damage than the actual burns to the exterior of my body. Um, And I could tell you that over the course of those five minutes, there were several instances where my eyes got heavy and my, you know, as if when all of us are watching TV late at night and we're fighting that we want to get to the good part.
We want to be able to make it. And you're like, I'm hanging on. I'm hanging on. Boom. Your eyes are closed. And my eyes would close. And then when my eyes would close, I would feel nothing. I felt no pain. I didn't hear any of the chaos of people yelling outside the Humvee trying to one, do a headcount, find everybody, but then to figure out how to get to me, I, none of it was, was present.
Literally it was in the midst of my eyes being closed. It was just simply the thing that I connected with that I could hear was my breath and that I could hear. I would. Here I would have these thoughts and I could remember the vivid conversation. I was just saying to myself, like, I'm going to lose my life.
I'm going to die. I'm going to die in this way at this age. Um, like my mom's worst fear is becoming a reality. Um, like I remember having those thoughts and those conversations with myself, but then I also remember telling myself. You can't keep your eyes closed because if you keep your eyes closed, you're giving up.
And I would open my eyes and I would continue to scream and yell for someone to please pull me out. And I did this at least three, four times over those five minutes. And so for Probably a decade when people ask me what happened, I would just talk about, you know, what I saw in my hands and what I felt and you know, which, again, not dismissing it, it's all part of it.
But there came a point in my life when I started to really understand breath work and really understand the true importance of being able to pause and reflect that I then, when I looked at that five minutes, I realized, you know, it's so fascinating that when my eyes were open and I was aware of what was happening.
Man, I felt excruciating pain. Like, I felt like I couldn't breathe, like I, like I just felt life was being sucked out of me. But yet, the moment that I closed my eyes, like I felt no pain, I heard no chaos, and I just connected with my breath. And that breath to me, I, I practiced that till this day is that when life feels overwhelming, like there's a freaking bomb that just went off in my life and you know, people are, you know, needing a lot for me and you know, energy and all this stuff is being extracted for me.
Um, any point when I feel things are overwhelming, I just close my eyes. I just literally close my eyes and I connect with my breath. And I just breathe and then I just tell myself that breath allows, reminds me and allows me to understand that I'm alive, that I'm okay, that I can get through this and it doesn't have to be long and I just, I opened my eyes and I'm like, all right, let's go, let's lean in.
And so, you know, that's what happened to me. I was. I was evacuated, um, ended up in San Antonio, Texas, which is where the burn center is for the military. And I spent almost three years there in the hospital recovering. Again, I was 19 when it happened, so I turned 20, 21, 22 in the hospital. Um, and talk about, you know, identity.
I mean, I was left with looking at this individual in the mirror and not having a clue who that person was. And because I had lost my identity, my appearance for 19 years of my life. I, when I looked in the mirror, I knew that person. Now I'm looking, I'm like, I have no idea who that person is. Also the identity of being in the military.
Like I, Like I was like, I love this idea of being a soldier and I wanted to do 20 years and I wanted to go to Every school and program I could to be this highly decorated soldier at the end of my career Um, and now you're telling me I can't stay in the army And so my identities were essentially stripped away and I was just this clean vessel that was just in the world to be molded, remolded in a sense, if you will.
Erick: Right.
Um, and you know, and it was tough, man. I mean, it was, it was challenging him as, as, as anybody can imagine. I mean, just to be able to navigate that in itself. I mean, I, you know, I told a friend of mine the other day, I was like, you know, the person that I created, the, the, the, the persona that I created, like the, the, the The personality I created, the approach, the mindset, all of the things that I created was what I needed to create in order to survive that period of my life.
I needed to become this person that said when people stared at me and I knew it bothered me, instead of leaning into the fact that it bothers me, I would be like, you know, I don't give a shit about those people anyways. Like that was sort of the, who I had to create myself to be, to where I wouldn't allow those things to, to harm me and to hurt me.
And it served as purpose at that period of my life. But then when it came time for me to graduate to a next phase of my life and a sense of my relationship with my wife and relationship with other people that came into my, before I had kids, I realized that image, that persona, that person no longer needed to be.
Like I needed to let that, that per, that person helped me get to this point. But if I continued with that image, I would never allow myself to be vulnerable. I would never allow myself to trust. I would never allow myself to really have, you know, true connection with these individuals who I've learned keep deeply care about me.
And so I've had to let go of that person. And then. Sort of, again, approach life as like this baby that can be remolded and just lean into this new experience and this new journey that I'm on, um, which has led to some incredible blessings. And so it's been a journey, man. I mean, it's been 21 years, um, since that day.
And for a long time, I also refer to that day as a traumatic day as a, uh, and now I look at it as a blessing. I do, I truly do. Like, I mean, I believe that. Somebody said something to me recently and they said, they said that, that your environment can change your DNA. And I remember when this person said that I, I was like, ah, and you know,
Erick: The genetics.
J.R.: Yeah. And, and, and then the conversation ended and I just kept marinating on that. And I was just like, huh. And just really trying to, and I was like, okay, I can, okay. Because then I was like, well, you know, so when I was a kid, that man that my mother was seeing, he. Would play the piano and he would sing Spanish love songs in our on our living room and I would go and sit next to him and like Sing these songs with him because Spanish was my first language And, um, he would take me every now and then to this hole in the wall bar down the street from our house, our apartment.
And I would sing a couple songs, Spanish love songs, sing and dance at like in front of all these people that are heavily intoxicated and, you know, and, uh, And I was doing my thing, man. And when I think about, I'm like, you know what? I was born, my DNA was, that's who I am. I was always this positive, uplifting, like just fun energy to be around, curious, light people.
Like I was always that person. But then there were all these, this set of things that were taking place over the course of my life and my youth and the environment that was starting to maybe kind of, um, Take change my DNA and lead me down a different path and then you throw this injury into it that also can then change my DNA and set me on a different path and all it took for me to get back to who Jr was always destined and meant to be was.
One person and then two people and then five people leaning in and showing up for me as human beings and what's this?
Erick: Was the person after you were injured more angry? Was it somebody?
J.R.: Oh, I was 100 percent angry. Yeah Yeah, I was 100 percent angry. Um and a lot of that anger stemmed from You know, it's like people had these biases when they would sit down and have a conversation with me You know You know, they would look at me and they'd say, you're a wounded veteran.
Um, and that's all they saw. And I'm like, yeah, no, that's all you see. But if you listen to me, you would identify that there's so much more to me. There's interest I have, there are, Personality, you know, traits that you're probably like, Oh man, I could get with, you know, I'd like, I can get behind that. This person is cool.
This person is funny. This person likes sports. This person doesn't like this does like that, you know, Oh, I can connect with that individual. And all I kept. The more I would try to explain myself and, you know, allow people to understand who I was, what I kept running into was people still fixated on the fact that I was a wounded veteran.
That's what they, that's where, that's where the wall was. And they would just stop there. And it's, and then there were a lot of people that kept telling me they were going to, you know, cause at this point I had identified that I wanted to be a speaker. Like I enjoyed this work. I wanted to continue to do it on a bigger scale.
And. People were like, yeah, we'll help you. We'll help you. And then those people wouldn't help you. And then I'd get mad because I'm like, well, you said you were going to help me. And they would always, you know, they would, I remember one person vividly saying to me, well, you know, I got other projects to work on and I said, Yeah, but you told me you were going to do this by this time.
Like, it's not like I'm coming at it, coming at you out of the blue. Like you told me this. And so the more that I just kept getting disappointed and disappointed and disappointed and disappointed, it just, just made me angry. And I just felt like no one cared. Um, I mean, honestly, no one gave a shit. That's the way I felt.
And, um, It turned into one day, my best friend, you know, telling me that I needed to cry and I started to cry and, you know, had this real heart to heart conversation. And what I realized is that I, I too played a role in that and, and turning people off because I was mad because I was angry because I, you know, I was the one that, the way I was approaching people, the way I was speaking to people.
I mean, listen, I have a gift to be able to get in front of anybody, any group of number, number of people, and to be able to speak and to make people feel something. Like I have that gift. I know, but that gift is in me. Equally can be a curse if I'm not in the best space and trust me, like there were times when I would, if Erick crossed me the wrong way, and Erick disappointed me, I would come at you, Erick, with my words, with the same words that I could lift you up or the same words, I'm literally going to paralyze you.
And, and I, once I identified that I too played a role in the way that people responded to me, I started to change. And it wasn't like I was being fake. I just understood like, okay, I needed, it's not people's fault that. You know, they don't understand me. It's not people's fault that they don't understand what I'm going through.
Like everybody has their own journeys. Like I'm not going to understand what a lot of other people go through in their lives because I haven't been exposed to that. Um, is that my fault? No, it just means that we all have different. And so I took the approach of, I need to be an educator. I need to be an educator.
I need to be the one that is teaching people, not only who I am, but who all of us are, meaning the people that I represent at that time, which was mostly service members, wounded servicemen, who we are, we're not just these individuals in uniform. We're not just these individuals with scars. We are individuals that are navigating a lot of the same things that Everybody else is navigating in the world.
It's just maybe a little compounded a little bit more just because of the fact that we are in a military environment. We are in a time of conflict. They're, they're like, they're, yes, there's, there's different, but at the end of the day, we're still people navigating the same thing that other people are navigating.
And once I understood how to then connect with people that I was in the driver's seat. All of a sudden, man, I started literally finding community. I started building community. I started trying to be a little bit more vulnerable. And the more that I would be a little bit more vulnerable about this little thing, I'm not going to give you too much, but this little thing, you know, then people, I found people came up to me and said, man, I, I can relate to you.
I can connect with you. And people started to support me. And I was like, Oh, and I just, all that was, was data again, data that I was gathering that said, This works, this is positive. If you continue to do this, this is what people like from your brand Jr. And the more that I kept doing it, the more that I was just like, okay, I'm building, I'm building, I'm building to the point where, you know, I found myself in the, you know, on stages and I found myself in the entertainment industry.
And, you know, and you know, the big show that I was on was dancing with the stars. And, you know, people say, how did you go on that show? And how did you, how were you nervous? And I was like, I was never nervous, but now it makes sense.
Erick: I watched some of the videos and you can move, man!
J.R.: But you know, that's who I was always meant to be from that kid that was dancing in that bar.
I was always meant to be this person that was comfortable, you know, being on, on that stage. I was always meant to be that. So when the opportunity presented itself, it was like, all right. Like I'm in my element. This is who I am. And listen, man, I, you know, when you're raised by a single woman, you have no other choice, but to be her dance partner, whether you want to be or not.
And so, you know, you learn at an early age how to get down. And then, you know, my mom, you know, also taught me how to dance. When I realized that girls like guys that can dance, I was like, Hey, why don't you show me some extra moves, mom? But, um, yeah, it's been, man, it's been a journey. I mean, it's sometimes I stop and I really reflect and marinate on, You know, wait, is that, was that my life?
Was that me? It just, it's, it's one of those things that you just can't really, I mean, you could write this stuff up in a script and a movie and some show and something. I mean, but. I mean, the fact that I'm living it and the fact that, yeah, it's, it's pretty wild.
Erick: So, question for you. Do you think that, do you think that you could have become the person you are now? Meaning, you know, becoming that person that you want to be. Do you think that the person you were before your accident and the things that happened with that, do you think that he could have reached that without the accident?
J.R.: So in my instinctively, I want to say no. I believe we all have to as much as it sucks. That we have to go through the hardship. I believe that the hardship that's, that's where it's at, right? That's where the opportunity lies to grow, to evolve. Um, I'd like to believe had I not been injured that I'd like, that I would have gotten to this point.
I think the difference is it would have taken a lot longer.
Erick: Yeah,
J.R.: it would have taken a hell of a lot longer. Because when you go through something like this, and no matter what, what it is that you go through, when you go through something that's, it's, you know, pretty life changing, it almost amplifies it, it accelerates, it accelerates, you know, the trajectory and the journey that you're on.
And it just puts you in a space where you're like, You have to then learn how to pay attention to all these things and and it just starts you want and once you get a Little taste of it. I mean, it's like anything in life, right? It's like not that I'm, you know, encouraging people to lean into other bad habits or whatever, but Yeah, I like but it but it's like it has the same Effect in a sense of where once you start leaning in a little bit and get that gratification and get that reward, you're like, it's just kind of addicting.
I think I want to continue to do this. I think I want to continue to lean into this. I think I want to explore more avenues of this or that. And all of a sudden you're like it. And so it just accelerated my curiosity and accelerated my journey to figure out. What did I needed to work on and to really lean into the feelings that I was feeling every time something would happen, like I would get this, this feeling in my chest or this pit in my stomach or, you know, my in my throat.
And I realized, oh, there's a lot of trauma that needs to be addressed. And, uh, So I think it just accelerated it. I mean, I, but I mean, I also equally could have been an individual in the military and I'm not saying all individuals in the military like this, but I mean, because there was distraction because I would, would have been busy with my career and busy with whatever, like, it could have easily just, I just could have been a distracted individual.
Um, still potentially, Yeah, potentially, potentially. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, when I think about it, I definitely feel like I could have, I don't know how the hell to say this. I don't even know what I'm trying to say, to be honest, but I just, I think you get the point. I think your listeners understand what I'm trying to say is that.
I just, because we're so conditioned that when we go through things, we just need to look for distraction. And in some cases, that's okay. And I get that. Um, however, like, I just think I just would have been distracted and I just would have been repeating the same cycle over and over and over. Maybe not to the degree of what I was exposed to as a child, but I think I still would have been angry.
I think, I think there still would have been things that would have triggered me. Um, that would have, you know, just set me off. I think, yeah, I mean, it would have taken me a lot longer to learn this lesson.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I kind of think back on my life and I definitely had plenty of struggles with things and, but I think I always had a concerted effort of, I wanted to figure out how to be happy and I wasn't when I was younger, because, you You know, a lot of trauma growing up, so it took, it took me a long time to figure out those things, but a lot of it was just, I had to find the right resources to be able to do that, and so there are times when I go, you know, why did it take me until I was in my 40s to find stoicism, because this is, you know, even though I had philosophy when I was in college, you know, but I think that, like you, I'm a very curious person, and so I was always trying to, like, To find things to grow and to learn and to, you know, I believe in the kind of the potential of the human mind because I love learning and when I moved out here to Amsterdam, I gave away and sold, you know, pretty much most of my books and I would say I probably had about 3 or 400 books in my library.
And I would say probably about 80 percent of them were like psychology. Habits, things along those lines, you know, just all interesting like that. Then the other batch was all psych, well, I guess it probably about 60%. You know, there was like sci fi and, you know, then instructional books, like how to play guitar and things like that.
But, but I kind of wonder like, you know, why. In some ways, I feel like it took me a long time to get to that place where I was happy, but I was always getting happier and I want to, you know, but yeah, so it's, it's always an interesting thing for me when I, when I talk with people about that, and they have one kind of pivotal event that really changed the whole direction of their life and recognizing that that was the thing that turned them into who they are and they became the the person that they're happy with and that otherwise if they hadn't had that tragedy that that hard thing that really knocked them down they probably would have just meandered along and not been of anybody of consequence.
J.R.: It's almost, you know, when you were mentioning all those books that you had, you know, I'm sitting there looking at my office and I'm right in front of me, I'm like, Oh my God, I have all these books. And it's, it's, you know, it's almost like, You know, you read books to gain knowledge, right? And people say knowledge is power.
And I'm like, okay, to me, you know, if, if you're just gathering knowledge and doing nothing with it, it's just knowledge, right? It's just, it's cocktail talk. Um, but when you apply knowledge, knowledge applied, that to me is power. Right. That's the way And so to your point, like, you know, you clearly were curious about all of this well before a lot of, you know, the events that happen in your life.
Um, but I think you need the life events in order for this stuff to be like, ah, like, cause then you're, then, yeah, then it's just like knowledge. Now it's just like, okay, like, okay, this is cool. Like if this happened, this happened, but. It doesn't apply to your life in that moment. So you're just kind of like, okay, cool.
It's just knowledge, but then life happens. And then it's like, Oh, here's your opportunity to then take that knowledge and apply it. And now there's, but, but if you never had that event, you would, you would never know how it applies to you. And it's no different than, you know, like, I mean, I think that's, I think that's a misconception with it.
And, and, and that. You need to go through what you need to go through and, and, and, um, in order for you to be able to understand, it's like, I tell people all the time, you know, like when I have the opportunity to speak and, you know, I share at the end, I'm like, listen, all of us in this space, no matter how many people are in the audience, all of us are in different places in our lives, professionally, personally, some of us are going to be in spaces in our lives where, you know, What I've shared over the last 45 ish minutes, man, it's just, it's just striking a chord with you.
It's, it's boom. It's, it's home. It's what you need in this moment. Others. Business is booming as Antonio Brown, the Pittsburgh's former Pittsburgh Steelers said, you know, like everything is going well, personally, professionally, everything is fantastic. And that's great. That's amazing. I'm happy for you. Um, I'm not wishing the negative.
I'm not hoping that something horrid, tragic happens to you or people you love. Um, But what I encourage people to do is that in the midst of you, as you go through life, you have to look at it as if when you're walking down the street and you see a penny on the sidewalk. And most of us won't pick up that penny.
Cause we're like one, some of us are germaphobes or we're like, where has that penny been? That penny is dirty. But then the other ones are going to be like, you know, we're like, well, that penny's on tails. You don't pick it up. Cause that's bad luck. And then there's the other of us that are just going to be like, well, I got money in my pocket.
I don't need that penny. And my approach. To life is this every conversation that I have, every experience that I have, good or bad, major, minor, whatever. I view it as if there's that penny and I'm picking it up. Even if I feel like it's not relevant to me, even if I feel like I don't necessarily need it, I still pick it up right now because the more pennies, the more change I pick up along the way, eventually you want to be able to have a pocket full of change that.
You can pay your, you, when everyone's stuck on one road and you look over to the left and you're like, man, why is that road vacant? And I'm like, well, that's a toll road. You got to have X amount of change to be able to, to access that road and get to where you want to go a lot quicker. Boom. I got all the, I picked up all these pennies along the way.
And so for me, I'm always the knowledge that I'm accruing is to hopefully prepare me for the cycle of life and the next thing that's going to present itself. And it doesn't mean the next thing has to be this traumatic event on the same scale of what happened to me at 19. It just traumatic event can simply be like, Oh my God, I'm not getting this many.
You know, engagements as I'm accustomed to, or like it, it just, it just means in the moment it's traumatic for me. It's a big thing for me, but it doesn't mean it has to be life altering. It doesn't mean that it has to be like you lose somebody you love dearly. It doesn't have to be that, but then I'm able then to apply this knowledge to that situation.
And I believe that that's what allows, I mean, I mean, listen, everybody's life was turned upside down during, at the beginning of COVID right in 2020. And. I remember, you know, obviously me as a speaker and traveling all over the world and that was not happening and, you know, people in my circle were like, Oh my God, what are we going to do?
Like, this is everybody's real life scenarios. What are we going to do? And my wife was like that too. And I was just like, it'd be fine. It'd be fine. Like, I'm not going to sweat it. It's gonna be all right. And I started to then ask my team of like, Hey, Is virtuals a thing? Like, you know, is that something we could do?
Like we lean in. Oh, no one's no one's done that. No one's doing that. And I'm like, let's figure this out. And so I would like test, you know, my computer and my camera and my mic and my lighting and my Wi Fi. And I was testing all these things. And then one day out of the blue, somebody on my team says, Hey, somebody is asking if you're comfortable doing like a keynote virtually.
And And I was like, let's lean into it. Let's see, let's, let's go. And that first one dude. And for the next like two years of my life, I was the busiest I'd ever been off in the comfort of my home. Right. It was the, the, the, the, the joke of we're a professional up top. Right. And you know, God knows what down below, right?
Like, I mean, it was just like, I was in my office knocking out three, four keynotes in a day and making great money. And it was just like, you know, but I never panicked. I never stressed because life has conditioned me that, okay, when adversity presents itself, when everyone else is trying to be chaotic and like worried about how level headed are you going to be?
How calm are you going to be? How present are you going to be to what's happening? And, you know, I got to share something, man, because. You know, I don't know if anything that I've shared in this episode has, has connected or resonated with any of your listeners. We won't know until it comes out and people start to, you know, share with you or people feel inclined to share something with me.
Um, and that's the beauty of life. You just got to like show up, speak from your heart, speak, speak authentically, um, function authentically and, and not be focused on the outcome of like, I hope. X amount of people reach out to me and say that this changed their lives. I mean, I'm just putting some, I'm putting myself out there with the hopes that it'll help somebody no matter what stage of life that they're in.
And I think these are all timeless conversations, right? Like, I mean, somebody, I mean, I went back when. When we, you and I got connected, I went back and listened to episodes from a while ago. Um, and you know, and, and so, you know, I could find a year from now, someone saying, man, I heard you on, on, on that podcast.
Like that was cool. Like, or whatever. But the thing is, is that I. imbued as this individual that, that has all this knowledge and, you know, bring him in to help us. And yes, I've accrued a lot of knowledge and wisdom, if you will. And, and I do love sharing, but I'm also a human being that puts myself out into the world because I know the world can equally give me the things that I need as a human being.
And what I mean, and I'll tell you this quick story. So a few years ago I did this engagement for this, uh, for Delta airlines. I'm just, and it was in Atlanta and it was going to be two dates and it was going to be on a Tuesday and then on a Thursday. And so I just knocked out two, I mean, I'm a Delta snob.
So this was kind of like a cool thing for me to go to the headquarters and speak to the company. And, you know, the culture was incredible. Like, I mean, just from the bottom up, like this, the culture was incredible. It just wasn't like that flight attendant, like, welcome on board. Like, no, it was like, everybody was like that.
And within the company that I was encountering. And so I was on a high when I flew back home. And then all of a sudden something, I don't know what it was, man. I can't even remember. Something just triggered me on the plane and just put me in like in this funky space. And I remember landing and every time I land, I always text my wife and just say, I landed no matter where I am, just landed, headed to the airport, Hey, headed home, whatever, or headed to the hotel, headed home.
And, uh, I didn't text her. I was like, I just need it. I just need some time to myself. So I get in my car and I am exiting the parking garage and I pull up. I don't even look at the person. I just put my hand out the window with the ticket. And the person, I can feel that somebody grabs the ticket, but they're not taking it.
So naturally, like I look up and I see this older lady. And she's, we're both holding this ticket as we're making eye contact. And she asked me, she says, um, she says, uh, What, what happened to you? And I said, Oh, I was in a car accident. Just simple. And she says, Were, were, were you burned? And I said, Yes. She says, Were you in the military?
I said, Yes. And she says, Was most of your body injured? I said, Yes. And then she said, Can I pray for you? And I was like, Yeah, sure. And, you know, she quietly just closed her eyes and she was praying. And then I look up and she's writing and I'm like, all right, now she's doing the transaction. Now I'm going to give her my credit card.
We're going to pay. We're going to move this thing along. Well, she hands a ticket back to me and as she hands it back to me, she says, are you familiar? Are you familiar with Buddhism? And I said, yeah, not, not really. And she says, well, within Buddhism, there is a Buddhist we call Amitabha. And she said, Amitabha represents infinite light, infinite wisdom.
When I see you, I see Amitabha. And she gives this beautiful explanation and she hands me the ticket and she wrote it on the ticket, Amitabha. And. Then I went and she was like, here's your total. And I gave her my credit card paid. And I was like, thank you so much. And she was like, have a great day. And you know, sort of the metaphor for life, right?
Like that arm in a parking garage is down. And once I paid it lifts and allows me to go through sort of that metaphor for life. And I had to pay my dues before I can actually move on to the next phase of my life. And I remember calling my wife immediately. And I was like, babe, I meet the bar. And she was like, what?
And I was like, I'll tell you when I get home. And I just literally for the next 30 minutes driving home, put the windows down and I just was like present and just really still engaged in that conversation. And what this lady shared with me, I haven't seen that lady at that airport since then. And I travel all the time, but I'm not supposed to see her again.
This is a lady I've asked and they said, yeah, you know, she, she, you know, she doesn't work here anymore. That's all they said. Right. And I was like, okay, but here's a lady that I don't know what her life was about. I don't know what experiences she said. I don't know who she is. I don't know anything about her.
All I know is that she was a person working the booth in a parking garage, which many of us in society would probably look down on her because we're like, what's that lady? She just works in a parking garage. Like, what is she going to show? She has nothing to share. She has nothing to offer, like nothing.
And yet that lady is the one that shifted my perspective. The guy that gets invited to do all these grand things. She helped me. That's the beauty in life is that, but I want people to understand something over the course of that very, I mean, it seems like it might've been a 10 minute conversation. It wasn't, it was probably like three minutes max.
But when she asked me, was I injured? I could have said none of your business when she said, were you burned? I could have said none of your business when she said, you know, when you're in the military, where is it? Most of your body. Can I pray for you? Absolutely not. Are you familiar with Buddhism? No. And I don't care.
I could have shut it down so many times over the course of that interaction, yet life has taught me. That in those moments is when you have to be more open, you have to be more present, more engaged because there's something, a penny or two, that is going to be dropped here and it's up to you how you actually want to receive that and what you actually receive.
And so I believe I'm just a makeup of all the people that I've interacted with over the last 21 years of my life. Like, even this conversation with you. I'm just a product of this. That's, that's what I am. Like, I'm not self made. Like, like, I am made through my interactions, my connections. With people, with real people, going through real things in life.
Erick: So, speaking of that, do you have a particular framework or belief system that you adhere to, like Buddhism or Stoicism or some type of philosophy? Or have you just kind of cobbled that along as you've been going along?
J.R.: Man, I just, yeah, I think there's not one particular thing that I, like, I believe. You know, whether it's stoicism, whether it's like any sort of religion or whether it's, uh, any other philosopher or their approaches, like, I think for me, I just, I love creating sort of like this a la carte component of it, where I, there's a lot of beautiful things about this and the beautiful things about that.
And, you know, I just kind of, I'm like open to all of it. Um, and, and see how that resonates with me. Um, You know, I think, you know, Buddhism is something that I've wanted to lean in a little bit more into just, just because it, it, it feels like there's like a lot of alignment. Um, you know, like I mentioned earlier, when I do a lot of yoga, they're always talking to, you know, making a lot of references and, and, you know.
Yeah. You know, I feel like a lot of that stuff resonates with me, but I think that's true for a lot of things. I think there's a, you know, I've heard you talk about in previous episodes, you know, and, and, and, and talk about, you know, um, stoicism and, and like, and I'm like, Oh, I vibe with that. Like that makes, I'd get that tattooed on my body right now.
And so for me, it's not so much like, like, like I'm, I'm a, like, I feel like I'm in a space where I could. Essentially pull from a lot of different things and and it works for me right now. And, um,
Erick: okay. Yeah, I'm kind of the same way, but stoicism is kind of been my core, but I like branching out and finding lots of other things and pulling them in, uh, whether that's from, like, understanding neuroscience, whether that's some aspect of Buddhism that I find interesting, whether that's, um, you know, almost anything because, but I found that stoicism is just, you know, It just speaks to how my mind works, because I'm very rational and that personality just really, really just clicks for me because it allows me to kind of logic through, you know, why am I feeling this way?
Why did I react that way? What's going on? What can I do to make sure that when this thing happens, that I handle it in a way that I want to. And it's just tools that are fantastic, but it doesn't have a lot of the baggage that most religions have because there's no rules. It's just principles and tools.
Yeah. For me, that's, that, that's kind of why I cling onto it. And I kind of joke around that in many ways, it's like the record room in Buddhism, because they're, you know, how you can say something in stoicism, you can find almost the exact corollary within Buddhism. Um, so for me, that's really interesting.
And I also really enjoy like physics and stuff like that, quantum mechanics, understanding those types of things, how they didn't relate with the ideas of consciousness and reality. And so, uh, you know,
J.R.: it's all that stuff intertwined. Yeah, yeah, there's there's all that stuff is intertwined. There's a lot of intersectionality between it all.
Um, I mean, you know, in a lot of ways, like you said, a lot of us are saying that the same things, um, you know, we believe in a lot of ways, the same things. Um, it's just. In some cases, like you said, like the rules is what changes things, um, you know, that, that, that, that, and, and, and, you know, so, yeah, so I, I love this concept of just being this being that is existing and, and, and being present to, you know, because here's the thing, like, if, if I, and again, no knock on anybody, if they are.
More exclusive to one or another or whatever, that's fine. It works for you. But for me, my viewpoint is, well, if I'm so gung ho on this one thing, when I have an interaction with somebody that introduces something else to me, that could be beneficial to me doesn't mean I have to completely like, embedded and get embedded with it.
But it means that there's something that I can gain from that. That's going to help me in this space of my life. Um, you're closing yourself off from that and, you know, and, and, and, you know, and
Erick: I can relate to that because I grew up Mormon and, you know, that's very much. Very strict and this is how things are. These are the rules and you follow them. And, you know, I, I joke around with my Catholic friends that I gave it up for Lent. Um, and, uh, but yeah, I just found that as I got older, I just. I reached a point where, when I did a little more digging into the history of the church and realized, you know, what Joseph Smith was about, what Brigham Young was about, I'm like, okay, these guys were con men, and they were, they were not very good people.
And this whole thing was just made up to make, to take money from people. And while there were, there were some core Christian principles, which I think were very good, and a lot of early Christianity was actually based on stoic philosophy. A lot of the early Christian thinkers were Stoics and, or had, you know, studied Stoicism and then they, you know, were joined the Christianity at that point and were very influential in that reign.
And if you look at the Ur Christian church, it was a very, it was very different than what we have now, but. So a lot of the principles I think were good, but all of the rules and all of the rituals and everything on top of that, you know, and Just this whole very repressive culture and lifestyle. I just found it, you know, suffocating and once I left it was just like it was freeing I remember once I made the decision to leave it was like I had shrugged off a giant Backpack full of like a thousand pounds and just like, and I physically felt lighter.
I had to look around the room like, am I actually lifting off the floor? What? This feels so weird. It was a literal feeling like, you know, and I was like, that was, that was weird. Yeah. Just a decision in my mind that, okay, I can let go of this because this is all a bunch of bullshit. I've tried my best. For I think it was at that point, 30 years, 32 years, and I'm it just doesn't work for me.
And it's the reason why it doesn't work is it's it's. It's not true. Let it go. And it was like, Oh, I felt free and I kind of wandered around and, you know, did a lot more exploring, kind of figured out, did all the stuff that I should have done in college, um, and figured out much more who I was. And then, um, like I said, about eight years ago, I found stoicism and it was just like, ah, you know, just having these light bulb moments of like, Oh, if I understand what I can control and what I can't, and let go of those that I can't.
God, that makes life a lot easier. And I've stopped getting stressed and angry about the things that I can't control because, well, I can't control them. So I can face reality and just be like, yeah, I can't control that. So, okay.
J.R.: So what would you say to someone like myself who, you know, isn't really that familiar with, Um, stoicism, like where, where does one begin?
Like I'm, I'm in a stage of my life right now where I'm like, you know, I want to, I got all these books, I got all these different sources that I can gain a lot of knowledge and just really connect with different things. Um, Like I, I, that's the space, like I was in a space of my life. So just to, you know, bore you a little bit, but like my, my daughter is 12.
And for the past couple of years, she's been playing, she plays softball and she plays select travel club, whatever people call it, wherever they're from. And. I got asked to coach and then it just turned into like, I was the head coach and I just, and when you cross into this level of sports, it's a completely different beast that consumes your entire life.
And I'm also the personality that no matter what I get into, I get into it, like whatever I'm doing, I'm going to do. And so, um, I had leaned in heavily into this and, you know, still, I mean, I had another kid and so my son's three. Yeah. Um, and, you know, there was just work and I was, I went back, I went to school, went to college when I was in my mid thirties.
And so I just graduated a year. Like, so I just had all this stuff and I just didn't have time or energy. Um, and so now I'm in a space in my life where I'm not coaching anymore. My kids are pretty much on autopilot, if you will. Like it kind of have routines in place. Um, and so I'm like, you know what, I got some time where I just want to read and I want to listen to people talk and I want to, you know, right.
And I just want to just be present with it, whatever it is. And so if I wanted to learn more and if I wanted to, what's a good starting point for someone like myself to learn more about sort of the basics, the principles Stoicism and I'm going to write it down as you're talking.
Erick: Well, I happen to know there's this really great podcast.
J.R.: Which by the way, I don't know if you picked up on it. You know, um, that when, when I logged in, I was like, you know what? This is this podcast speaks to me because one is talking about stoicism, which I'm familiar with, but it also is coffee. And I love coffee. And so I had to make myself a little coffee.
You know, so I've been sipping on that. So yeah, so obviously there's the podcast.
Erick: Yeah, what
J.R.: episode
Erick: then, or where do I start? Wow. I have 1 that I did about a, uh, probably about 3 or 4 months ago called, uh, I think it's just beginning stoicism that we're kind of go over the 4 main kind of 4 main elements of it.
Um. So what I'm on 309 was my last one. So probably maybe like probably about 10 episodes back. I think, uh, one of my favorite ones, this is what I tell a lot of people is three 18, no two 18. Um, it's about acceptance and an exercise I did there that is really good about accepting yourself. But I think you, I think where you are psychologically, you're in a good space for that.
I often recommend that one to people who. Who struggle with self acceptance and really understand what that means and how to apply that practically. Um, there was one book that got me into it, and it was mentioned from Tim Ferriss, this was about eight years ago. And it was called A Guide to the Good Life, The Art of Stoic Joy.
Uh, it's by William Irvine, he's a, uh, a philosophy professor. And that was the first exposure I had to it, which was really good. Obviously, you can get Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. Anything by Epictetus and Seneca are fantastic. And they're, they've been around for 2000 years. So you can just find them open source.
Um, and Ryan Holiday, Ryan Holiday is a good place to start. Obstacle is the Way is probably, um, but he's got a whole number of them and he's kind of, that was, he was instrumental for me really picking up a lot of things as well. Um, but some of the core things to understand, you know, are understanding what you can control and what you can't.
That's a huge one right there. Um, which I think a lot of people really struggle with because. The only things you really have control over are your beliefs and your perspectives, your thinking, those type of things, the choices you make, and the actions you take. That's it. Like, you don't even have control over your own body, as you well know.
You know, what happened to you, you didn't want it to happen, it just happened. And you can't change what happened, but you can decide how you want to respond to how that happened. So that's a big thing. The other big thing is, you know, talking about emotions. Then, By understanding that you can't control other people and letting go of those things, you're much better able to maintain your own emotional equilibrium because you take that moment before you want to snap at somebody and you go, you know, I want to react to him, but is that going to be helpful?
Let me try and respond to that. Let me take a moment and think about it, you know, and, you know, they talk about like, you know, Your perspective is so important because you can't ever be offended unless you choose to be offended. You know, and they even they mentioned that several times. It's like you are only harmed if you chose choose to be harmed.
Your mind is complicit in your own offense and people have a hard time getting that. Like, no, no, no. What he said was really offensive. I'm like, if he said it in Swahili, would you have found it as offensive? Because he said the same thing. You just didn't understand it. Is because you made an interpretation of your mind about it.
You made a decision about what it meant and what it felt like to you. That's what actually caused that. So, that's those are a couple of big things. Another 1 is, uh, let me think, uh, don't want to take it too much time on this, but I think if somebody's your 1st tuning into this is their 1st listening up to an episode, it'd be really good for him.
Um, that you're kind of continuing on with that is that your thoughts, your thoughts are the things that cause your emotions. So most people think that emotions are something that just happens, they're uncontrollable. You know, I just, I felt, it's just how I felt. It's like, well, no, you had some type of thought that happened that caused you to feel what you felt.
And they'll be like, no, no, no, this thing just happened. And that's what I felt. I said, no, no, you made a judgment about that thing. And that's what you felt. And, and I'm like, okay, let me give you a quick example. Say that you had a friend from high school, you guys were super tight, but over the years you lost touch.
You get a note from another mutual friend of yours says, Hey, by the way, I didn't know if you didn't know if you knew this, but John died 5 years ago. And suddenly you are just wracked with grief and you just you feel that pain. You're really upset. You feel that sadness that your friend John died that, you know, you guys were close butts in high school.
And the thing is, is that if it were truly just the circumstance, when John died, you should have felt grief, but it wasn't until you heard about him dying, you thought about what his death meant, and you made it gave it some meaning about how much that he had been important to you, and that you're going to miss him, that you felt those feelings.
Yeah. So, those are, those are some of the core things. Uh, then probably the biggest thing is to live a life of virtue, practice wisdom, practice justice, meaning how you treat other people, practice courage, and, and practice self discipline. Those are the four cardinal virtues, and if you are living a life where you maximize those four things, you will be happy in any situation, you'll be able to overcome any struggle that happens to you, because to them, that's the, that's the essence of what it means to live a good life, is to follow those four virtues.
J.R.: Yeah, I love that. Yeah, I'm gonna, I wrote down a lot of this, uh, stuff and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back and search for those, that episode you mentioned, but, um, you know, all this is just aligns, you know, with, with, with, with a lot of my beliefs and my thought processes and, you know, how I like to show up and stuff.
And so, you know, I think, um, It's so true. I remember having this conversation, man, this was probably, gosh, I want to say like seven, six, seven years ago, I happened to be in Philadelphia at this event and there was this charity and, um, we were in like this, like a little theater and I'm, I'm sitting there and.
There's a kid that is part of this charity and he's blind. And, um, he's sitting there and I go and I sit next to him and we just spark up a conversation and he's got personality. And so we're sitting there cutting up both of us. And, and I remember he said, I remember he said, he said, you know, cause I asked him, of course, you know, his age and, you know, not being able to see, and what are the challenges there?
And he said, you know, he said, um, he said, you know, a lot of the world looks sad. What I have to live with as a disadvantage. He said, and, and people feel sorry for me. He said, but honestly, I feel sorry for you guys. And I was like, all right, all right, come on. Like, come on. What do you mean? And he said, well, he said, just take for example, like when I interact with somebody, he's like, I can't see them and make a judgment.
He's like, I have to like. Listen to what that person's saying and I have to like like feel that person's energy He said you guys that he's like everybody that can see he's like lucky you guys that you guys could see He's like, but it also serves as a disadvantage Because you guys are making judgments just because of what you see.
You never even give yourself the opportunity to listen or to feel. And I was like, wow, you little shit. That is good. And you're so right. And, and I just. Again, one of those moments where it's like, here's this, the, the teacher, if you will, me, JR, being taught, being the student and being taught by a source that you would never think of as a teacher, a 12 year old kid that is dropping wisdom, man.
And I'm like, that's so true. And it's been one of those things that even, I mean, I try again, I'm a human being, but I try when I come. I don't have any sort of interaction contact with somebody I try to lead with that mindset of like, okay, this is, I need to be present. I need to listen. I need to feel. And that's when I make my judgment, right?
On whatever that is, right? If I feel like, oh, you know, don't want to whatever, but it was just one of those just simple, simple, simple little reminders that. Really pierced, um, for me. And it's, it's been a lot of, you know, sort of the, the basis of how I like to show up for people, because I mean, I remember there was a period of my life where all I wanted was for someone to really essentially remove those biases and just listen and show up and, and connect.
And so, um, Yeah, man, it's it's it's, you know, I'm so I'm so blessed. I'm so blessed. The life that I have in the life that I've created for myself. I created this life like because I was able to pay attention and lean in and not dismiss a lot of these beautiful lessons that were, you know, and so I've been able to, you know, put all these pieces together and create a great life for myself and for my family.
Um, but at the end of the day, It all just goes back to like, how are you showing up every single day? And in order to better show up, you got to find ways and practices that are going to allow you to, um, to rejuvenate yourself and to replenish your own cup and to fill your own cup. And, you know, so I'm always leaning into other people and trying to, you know, get that from other individuals and other interactions that I have.
But, um, you know, I'm, I'm super blessed. I'm super blessed. And I know that. A lot of people probably in despite what they're going through right now probably feel that they're not and that's normal. And that is a human response because when you're going through it, it sucks. However, um, I can tell you that there is another end of it.
And, um, but you do have to go through it. And you do have to lean into it. And you can't just live this model of like, I'm just going to look for the blessings. Um, you have to then when things, You have to trust, and you have to say at the end of the day, as hard as it is, find those blessings and practice that gratitude in the most horrible situations that you can find yourself.
There's always something. And the more you condition your, your brain to look at life that way, I think you're going to always be able to find something beautiful, despite whatever mess you find yourself in. So, um, Yeah, it's been fun, man. Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for allowing me to share, you know, a little bit of my life with you and your audience.
And, um, and, you know, I'll definitely be subscribing, man, and, and staying in touch and following, you know, sort of your journey and kind of where you're going and where life's taking you. But, um, this has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate it.
Erick: Oh, I appreciate it too. It's been very enjoyable. It's, uh, not every day that I get to talk to somebody who's, you know, been in your situation, but I, it's, for me, it's really amazing to see that you took that, that you took that, that, like, that, like you said, that clean slate and went, all right, I can do something with this because a lot of people wouldn't, there'd be plenty of people who'd just be giving up, they'd be drinking, doing drugs, whatever.
And, um, You know, when you're in that situation, it's kind of like you're the synchronous one and you decided and I'm really impressed with that. So good on you. Wow.
J.R.: Thank you, brother. Appreciate that man.
Erick: All right, so that's the end of this week's stoic coffee break. It was really a pleasure talking with J.R. Martinez and as always be kind to yourself, be kind to others. And thanks for listening. And if you aren't following me on social media, I would really appreciate it if you would. You can find me at @stoic.coffee on threads and Instagram, or at Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, LinkedIn, Facebook, at @StoicCoffee, all one word.
Do you struggle with confirmation bias? Do you even know what confirmation bias is? In this episode I want to delve into the concept of confirmation bias and how what you already know and believe can influence you to make poor decisions.
“The first rule is not to get fooled, and you are the easiest person to fool.”
—Richard Feynman
The Challenger Space Shuttle Disaster
In 1986, NASA's Space Shuttle Challenger exploded shortly after launch, killing all seven crew members on board. The disaster was a result of a failure in the O-rings, which were not designed to perform in the unusually cold weather on the day of the launch. Engineers from Morton Thiokol, the contractor responsible for the O-rings, had raised concerns about the risks of launching in such cold temperatures. However, due to the high pressure to maintain the launch schedule, these warnings were downplayed.
NASA officials and decision-makers were influenced by confirmation bias. They focused on past successful launches, where the O-rings had functioned without issue, even though those launches occurred under different conditions. The confirmation bias led them to dismiss the engineers' concerns as overly cautious, as the evidence that supported the safety of previous launches aligned with their belief that the Challenger would be successful.
The Challenger disaster occurred because the decision-makers did not adequately consider the evidence that contradicted their belief in the shuttle's safety. The disaster highlighted the dangers of ignoring critical data that doesn’t fit preexisting beliefs, especially in high-stakes situations.
The disaster led to a significant investigation, resulting in changes to NASA’s decision-making processes and safety protocols. It remains a powerful example of how confirmation bias can lead to catastrophic outcomes when critical warnings and evidence are ignored. This tragedy illustrates the importance of challenging assumptions and actively seeking out information that contradicts our expectations, especially in situations where lives are at stake or significant risks are involved.
Understanding Confirmation Bias
First, a definition: “Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, and remember information that aligns with our preexisting beliefs, while ignoring or minimizing evidence that contradicts them.”
Often we enter situations with ideas about what is going on and the best way to solve it. Because of the knowledge and experience we already have, we have a particular lens through we view the situation. This lens colors and filters things in a way that can make it challenging to consider that how we might be viewing the situation could be wrong.
If you’ve ever been to a live theater production, you’ll see that there are lights of different colors. When these lights shine on different objects they can change what an object looks like. For example a red light focused on a yellow object can make it look green. Just as this simple filter can alter a fundamental attribute of an object, our own filters make it harder for us to see things as they really are.
In a more concrete example, when we have an argument with someone, we might assume what a person’s motive is in disagreeing with us. Because we already think we know why they’re arguing with us, we apply a filter and tailor our points and comebacks to counter what we assume their motive to be, often derailing or prolonging the argument rather than working together for a resolution.
What We Already Know
The first part of confirmation bias is that we already have a set of knowledge and experiences that we rely on to try and understand what is happening, and how we can resolve a problem. There is nothing wrong with using these because this is how we can begin to examine and understand what is really happening. The problem is that we put too much weight on what we already know, and we look for more information and data to support our existing opinions and beliefs.
Socrates, famous for his ability to approach conversations with an open mind, said, “I know that I am intelligent because I know that I know nothing.” What he meant by this was that he would do his best to approach any situation with an open mind, or what they call in Zen Buddhism, “the beginners mind”. He was willing to put his preexisting beliefs and ideas aside, and begin if he knew nothing about the topic. Through questions and dialog, they would explore something from scratch, and work through building a better understanding of problem or idea. Epictetus echoed this sentiment, saying, "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid."
Discounting Counter Information
The second part of confirmation bias is that we will discount information that runs counter to what we already know and believe. Because we get attached to certain assumptions and ideas, we may ignore something that doesn’t support what we already think is the best solution. As Epictetus taught, "It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.”
One of the main reasons we discount information that doesn’t support our presuppositions is that we don’t like to be wrong. Being wrong feels like failure and it doesn’t feel good, so we’ll discount anything that disproves our idea. That fear of failure can cause us to dig our heels in even when we might harbor doubts about our position. We want to be right even if it’s not the right solution. We see this in everyday situations where someone is presented with irrefutable evidence and rather than change their mind, will say something like, “Well this is just my opinion and I don’t care what the evidence says.”
The Stoic Emphasis on Objectivity
So how do we get better at countering confirmation bias in ourselves?
One of the central tenets of Stoicism is the pursuit of objective truth. The Stoics encourage us to examine our judgments and challenge our assumptions, even at the most basic level. Within Stoicism, there’s the concept of Impressions and Assent. What this means that whenever we have a thought or sense something through our five sense, we have an impression. At this point we should be willing to question even what we sensed before we assent or agree to what we actually sensed.
As Epictetus explains, “You can process in your intellect and senses a wealth of thoughts and impressions simultaneously. There are impressions that you assent to, others that you reject; sometimes you suspend judgement altogether.” Simply put, we need to take a moment to examine our impressions before something we’ve thought or sensed is accepted as true.
The Role of Rationality
Stoicism encourages us to use rationality and reason when dealing with challenges. Epictetus taught, “For what does reason purport to do? ‘Establish what is true, eliminate what is false and suspend judgement in doubtful cases.’ … What else does reason prescribe? ‘To accept the consequence of what has been admitted to be correct.’” By using logic over emotions or our opinions we are better able to examine a situation with less bias, and accept the outcome even if we don’t like it.
The Role of Emotions
So where do emotions fit into all this? Stoicism often gets misunderstood as advocating for emotionless rationality. However, true Stoic rationality includes understanding the role emotions play in shaping our judgments. Emotions aren’t the enemy, but rather signals that can guide us when we approach them with clarity and reason. We have gut instincts and intuition for a reason, but they need to be balanced with rationality for better decision making. The reason why we defer to rationality is that emotions often reinforce confirmation bias, leading us to selectively interpret information based on how it makes us feel. Instead of rejecting emotions outright, we can use them as a starting point for deeper inquiry and reflection.
Self-Reflection and Self-Examination
Stoicism encourages regular self-reflection as a way to examine and refine our beliefs. Through meditation and journaling we can take the time to get to know our own minds, and examine the thoughts, ideas, and opinions that we hold. By practicing self-examination, we can begin to identify and address our own biases.
“Do you have reason? I have. Why then do you not use it?”, wrote Marcus Aurelius reflecting on his own thoughts and behaviors in his "Meditations," asking himself whether he was acting in accordance with reason or being swayed by irrational impulses. He also encouraged himself to, “Constantly and, if it be possible, on the occasion of every impression on the soul, apply to it the principles of physics, ethics, and logic.”
Negative Visualization as a Tool Against Confirmation Bias
Stoics practice “premeditatio malorum” (negative visualization) to prepare for potential challenges and setbacks. As Seneca explains, “Everyone faces up more bravely to a thing for which he has long prepared himself, sufferings, even, being withstood if they have been trained for in advance. Those who are unprepared, on the other hand, are panic-stricken by the most insignificant happenings.”
By imagining the worst that could happen helps counteract confirmation bias by encouraging us to consider scenarios that don’t align with our preferred outcomes. Intentionally visualizing what could go wrong, forces us to confront and evaluate contrary evidence. It also helps to face up to challenges more calmly because we aware of outcomes that we might not have considered, allowing us to not be taken by surprise.
Embracing the Opposite
A different angle we can take when dealing with challenges is ask ourselves, “What if the opposite was true?” If we already have preconceived idea, considering the opposite can help widen our perspective and find holes in our idea. It can help bring to light assumptions that we have made and gain a deeper understanding of the problem at hand. As Marcus Aurelius reminds us, "If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone."
As an example of this process, former President Bill Clinton used to debate multiple sides of an issue with his aide, Sydney Blumenthal, to ensure that he understood the issue more thoroughly and to gain a better understanding of his opponents point of view. This allowed him to speak in depth about an issue, and to respond to criticism or possible weak points with his ideas.
Conclusion
The Stoics were committed to rational thought, self-reflection, and the pursuit of objective truth. By incorporating these practices into our own lives, we can reduce the influence of confirmation bias in our lives, leading to more balanced and informed decision-making. The Stoic approach is not about denying emotions or holding rigid beliefs but about cultivating a mindset that is open, adaptable, and grounded in reality, helping us navigate the complexities of cognitive biases and lead more rational, fulfilling lives.
Do you suffer from anxiety? Do you often feel overwhelmed by the complexity of life? Well, today I want to talk about anxiety and how Stoicism can help us understand and deal with it, helping us to live a more relaxed and enjoyable life.
Today I escaped anxiety, or no, I discarded it because it was within me and my own perceptions, not outside.
—Marcus Aurelius.
So last week I took a trip to Portland to visit my family and friends and to pick up some more of my stuff that I wasn't able to bring over with me when I moved to Amsterdam. Now, when I fly, I get anxious. I have a tough time whenever we hit turbulence, I worry about making my flights, which happened twice on this trip, and I'm usually exhausted, which compounds the difficulty of dealing with this anxiety.
So first, let's define anxiety. Anxiety is defined as “a state of apprehension, uncertainty, and fear resulting from anticipation of a realistic or fantasized threatening event or situation, often impairing physical and psychological functioning.”
So basically anxiety is created by our own perception that we have about situations and the possible outcomes that we imagine about them. So let's jump into some Stoic principles and concepts that can help us deal with our anxiety.
Dichotomy of Control
The first is the Stoic idea of the dichotomy of control, which emphasizes focusing on what is within our control and accepting what is not. This principle is essential to managing anxiety because it encourages us to let go of worries about external events that we can't influence. As Epictetus clarifies, “Some things are up to us and some things are not. Our opinions are up to us and our impulses, desires, aversions, in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, or our public offices, or that which is not our own doing.”
Cognitive Distortions
So Stoicism encourages identifying, correcting irrational beliefs and cognitive distortions that contribute to anxiety. By questioning our assumptions and beliefs, we can align our thinking with reality. Seneca advises examining our fears to see if they are rooted in imagination rather than reality. He says, “We are often more frightened than hurt, and we suffer more from imagination than from reality.”
Emotion as a Natural Human Experience
Now, contrary to the misconception that Stoicism advocates for suppressing emotions, it actually promotes understanding and managing emotions rather than being ruled by them. Emotions can also be seen as a flag. If we feel anxious about something, it might be something that deserves our attention. The important thing is that we work on understanding why we feel the way we do. And work on managing our emotions rather than letting them control us. As Seneca reminds us, “Man is as unhappy as he convinced himself he is,” suggesting that emotions can be shaped by our interpretations.
Perspective
And this leads us to perspective. As Epictetus said, It is not events that disturb people, it is their judgment concerning them. The Stoics understood that much of what disturbs us is simply our perspective on the events and circumstances of our lives. They teach us that things external to us are neither good nor bad, but indifference, meaning that it's our judgment about them that make them good or bad in our minds. If we're able to look at things with more rationality and objectively, then we can use anything to our advantage just by changing our perspective.
For example, we might think that having wealth or fame is a good thing, but how many wealthy and famous people are just as unhappy as everyone else? How many famous people, who appear to have everything one could want, committed suicide? By keeping a clear perspective on things and understanding that it's our judgments about things that cause us to feel anxiety, we can start to change the perceptions that we have about the things in our lives.
Mindfulness and Present Moment Awareness
Seneca said, “But life is very short and anxious for those who forget the past, neglect the present, and fear the future.” Now, although mindfulness and being present in the moment is not an explicitly Stoic term, mindfulness aligns with the Stoic focus on being in the present moment. Being present helps us to avoid ruminating about the past or worrying about the future.
Seneca explains this a little bit deeper and says, “True happiness is to enjoy the present without anxious dependence on the future, not to amuse ourselves with either hopes or fears, but to rest satisfied with what we have, which is sufficient for he that is so wants nothing.”
Acceptance of Fate
The next thing I want to talk about is the acceptance of fate. As Epictetus says, “Don't demand or expect that events happen as you would wish them to, accept events as they actually happen. That way peace is possible.” So the Stoic concept of Amor Fati, meaning to love one's fate, is rather than liking the good things that happen to us and hating the negative things, We learn to love everything that happens to us.
And really the reason that we should do this is that these are, these things are going to happen anyway. So it's really just an acceptance of reality and this radical acceptance of life is how you are better able to take control of your, uh, your life rather than just being at the whim of fate and fortune.
As Seneca puts it, “Never have I put my trust in fortune, even when she appeared to be offering peace. All those gifts she bestowed on me in her kindness, position, influence, I stored them where she would be able to reclaim them with no disturbance to me.”
Acceptance of Imperfection and Failure
So the Stoics advocate for the acceptance of human imperfection and the unpredictability of life. When you take time to think about it, you start to realize that failure is just missed expectations. We had an idea of how things should work out, and when they don't, we get upset. This is something in your power that you can change.
Seneca wrote, “Hecato says, Cease to hope and you will cease to fear. The primary cause of both of these ills is that instead of adapting ourselves to present circumstances, we send out thoughts too far ahead.” In this case, hope means that we have expectations of how we think things should be, and that by lowering our expectations, We focus on how things really are rather than what we think they should be.
Rationality as a Path to Emotional Freedom
Next I want to talk about rationality as a path to emotional freedom. In Stoicism there's this idea of impressions and assent, meaning that something comes into our senses, we see something, we hear something, we smell something, and then we take a moment, and we pause, and we decide what this judgment means, or what this thing means.
What is this impression that is coming towards us, or that we've sensed in some way. And then we assent to it, meaning we agree that this is what we actually saw. And Stoicism suggests that rationality and logic can liberate us from emotional turmoil. Because when we feel these feelings, and we take that rationality and logic, then we can see situations more clearly and without bias.
However, this does not mean ignoring emotions, but understanding them through a more rational lens. Now, this may seem counterintuitive because many view rationality and emotions as opposites. Stoicism, on the other hand, integrates them, encouraging rational analysis to guide emotional responses. Next, we should embrace negative visualization.
Embracing Negative Visualization
Seneca explains, “Everyone faces up more bravely to a thing for which he has long prepared himself, sufferings even being withstood if they have been trained for in advance. Those who are unprepared, on the other hand, are panic stricken at the most insignificant happenings.” So the Stoics practice premeditatio malorum, which means the premeditation of evils, contemplating the worst case scenarios to prepare emotionally and reduce fear of the unknown.
Now this doesn't mean that you stress out about the future, but rather you take the time and a safe place to think about what could go wrong so that when it does happen, you You've already experienced what it would feel like to be in that situation.
For example, when I fly, I get anxious when we hit turbulence. It's a very visceral response. So before I fly, I have to walk myself through what I would do if the plane would go down. I think about how I would feel and what I would do in an emergency. I also remind myself that there are two pilots and a computer system whose sole job is to fly and land the plane as safely as possible.
Anxiety of Death and Memento Mori
Another big source of anxiety is the anxiety of death. As Epictetus explains, because we're the only animals who not only die, but are conscious of it, even while it happens, we are beset by anxiety. Now, the idea of no longer existing is something that is terrifying for most of us. But the Stoics teach that we need to get comfortable with the fact that we're going to die.
Memento mori, meaning remember death, is the practice of contemplating and getting comfortable with the idea that we're going to die. And the reason the Stokes have this practice is not because they were morbid, but so that we embrace the life that we have and live it to the fullest. It's also a way to think about how in time, anything that happened will be forgotten. Do you think people in 100 or 500 years will remember the stupid thing you said on the internet? Or that cringy picture that your friend or enemy posted of you? Probably not. So Epictetus often had dialogues when he was teaching. And he had a clever wit as well. And in one of these, I really like this, he says, “You think I can listen to poetry in my position? Why? What is it? I'm sentenced to death. And the rest of us aren't?”
Practical Steps
So what are some practical steps that you can take in your everyday life to help reduce anxiety?
The Stoics hold that living according to virtue was the sole good. And that in any and all situations we need to act with wisdom, courage, justice, meaning how we treat other people. And temperance, meaning self-discipline. If you act with integrity in all situations, then you never have to look back and shame and worry if you did the right thing, you can rest with a good conscience knowing that you acted in a way, in a way that you were proud of. Marcus Aurelius explains it simply: “If it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it. For let impulse being your own power.”
Next thing we can do is you work on controlling what you can and let go of the rest by focusing on what's in your power. You can take action and make progress rather than worrying about all the things that you can't control. This takes you out of the place of being a victim of circumstance that and puts you back in a position of controlling what you can.
Next, accept failure as a way to learn. Life is all about trying and failing, and learning from the times when we don't get things right. If you don't learn something from the times when you fell short, then it's a lesson that you've wasted. Next, treat yourself kindly and don't dwell on past mistakes. Learn from them for sure, but ruminating on them is a choice that you are making to punish yourself over something that you have no control over, and is ruining your presence. As Seneca reminds us, “What is the point of dragging up sufferings that are over, of being miserable now, because you were miserable then?”
Next, relax about the future. The future is unknowable. So, worrying about things that may or may not happen, and getting yourself worked up, is to borrow misery about things that may never happen. As Seneca says, “What I advise you to do, is not be unhappy before the crisis comes. Some things torment us more than they ought, some torment us before they ought, and some torment us when they ought not to torment us at all. We are in the habit of exaggerating or imagining or anticipating sorrow.”
Lastly, take some time to practice mindfulness. Getting to know your mind so that you can be aware of the thoughts that are causing you anxiety can help you to be better about seeing a situation as objectively as possible and work on changing your thinking.
In my case, when I'm feeling anxious about something, I try to view the situation as objectively as possible and notice the thoughts that I'm having and what emotions those thoughts are creating. This gives me a little distance from them and allows me to deal with them more rationally and to even change my thinking around the situation.
In conclusion, anxiety is a natural part of life, and it's easy to feel overwhelmed by our complex world. But the Stoics understood a long time ago that most of the anxiety that we feel is due to our way of thinking about the things that happen. By taking steps to understand our own minds, Controlling what we can and letting go of the rest, we can find ways to relax and even enjoy the ride.
Erick: Hello friends, my name is Eric Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic philosophy, I share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and I hope that you can learn something from them today.
all within the space of a coffee break. This week's episode is an interview episode. So we're going to be speaking with Dr. John Martini. He's the author of several books and a researcher. And before I dive into telling you all about him, it's easier if I just let him tell you, let him tell you about himself and where he's at and what he does.
John: I am, I'm a relentless researcher, writer, traveler, and teacher. I've been teaching 52 years in November and uh, learning everything I can, anything to do with maximizing human awareness and potential and helping people become more masterful in their lives. I've been fascinated by it since I was a teenager.
I'm 70 this year. So I've been doing it this many, this many years now. And, um, I, right now I'm sailing between Hong Kong and Shanghai. So I'm, uh, I'll be in Shanghai about noon tomorrow. So I'm out in the, in the sea out here outside the coast of China.
Erick: Nice. Nice. And you said when we were talking earlier, you mentioned that you had been doing this for 23 years.
That's, that's pretty amazing. Do you have a home base or just, just have the boat? I
John: live on the ship. I've been, I've been here for many years. I've had other homes. I've had 11 homes. Um, but I sold most of them when my wife passed away. And, um, I mainly just live in hotels around the world or here. And I'm mostly on my ship.
Erick: Nice. So, what is it that, that interests you most about human potential? What is it that, I guess, maybe from your early life that kind of drove you towards that? I guess your origin story, if you will.
John: Well, I was born with my arm and leg turned in, and at age one and a half, I had to start wearing braces. On my left side, and I found out I also had a speech impediment, so I used to put strings and buttons in my mouth as a kid, and then by the time I was out of the braces at four, uh, by around age six or so, I was told by my first grade teacher that I'm afraid your son has got learning problems, he'll never be able to read or write or communicate.
Probably never go very far in life or melt much. I had to wear a dunce cap when I was in first grade with a guy named Bill Dalrymple. And, um, they did that those days, I guess that was normal then.
Erick: And
John: I, I learned the only way I was making it through school was by listening to the smart kids and I would ask them questions.
So I started surviving by learning to ask questions. I was curious. But I couldn't read. I didn't read till I was 18.
Erick: Oh, wow.
John: And, uh, I had, you know, speech and dyslexia and a bunch of things. But I made it through elementary school by asking kids questions. And then I'd end up dropping out and stopping school and became a street kid.
Um, I left home at 13. And I picked up surfing, of all things. Now, Texas wasn't the surf capital, but That's where I learned it and I hitchhiked out to California when I was 14 and made my way over to Hawaii at 15 and lived on the North Shore and was a surf rat, you know, a long haired hippie surf kid.
And, uh, and I was decent surfer.
I mean, I got into three surf movies and some magazines and that kind of stuff and a book. And, but I nearly died at 17. And, um, in the recovery of that, I was led to a little Whole Foods store and then to a yoga class who, well, at that class had a special guest speaker, Paul C. Bragg, and he lectured that night and he inspired me with his lecture to make me believe that I could, if I worked at it, overcome my learning problems and someday learn how to be intelligent.
So I assumed that intelligence was a teacher because that's what, you know, when you're a teenager and kid, that's what you think. Intelligent people are teachers or something. So I had a goal and dream that I want to be a teacher. I want to be able to learn and read properly and write and speak properly.
And that led me on a journey, um, to overcome those challenges. And I eventually flew back to LA and hitchhiked back to Texas and, Took a GED to get me a high school thing, and I passed that by miracle. And then I failed school. And when I failed, I almost gave up on my dream. I thought, well, no, I guess I'm going surfing again.
And, um, something my mother said to me when she saw that I had failed, she said, son, whether you will become a great teacher and travel the world like you dream, or whether you go back to ride big waves, or you return to the streets and panhandle as a bum, just want to let you know my, your father and I are going to love you no matter what.
Thank you. When she said that my hand went into a fist and I made a commitment that I was going to learn how to read and study and learn and, and, um, teach and understand the health and philosophy and things. And philosophy became a very important thing. And, uh, I learned very shortly that the fastest way to learn besides reading.
And I was, I started memorizing a dictionary, 30 words a day. And my mom would test me on 30 words a day until I had to 20, 000 words in two years in my head. I started to Excel and I started living in the library and started reading encyclopedias and trying to catch up with all the other kids. And anytime I could learn a word, I was, it was like kid in a candy jar.
And I was interested in the universal laws, which led me to the logos, which led me to the disciplines, which led me to the philosophers, which led me to Zeno and the dialectic and led me to, you know, Hippocrates, I mean, Heraclitus, where it talked about the unity of opposites. And I just, I fell in love with philosophy.
And obviously he was involved in the, kind of the origins of Stoicism. And so I, I've written in that field and studied that field. And I mean, I, this has been my journey and I just, I learned it. If I teach, I learned the most. So I, I've been teaching now since 18 and, um, that's what I do every single day, seven days a week, I just teach or I research, I write and I teach and I travel, I've delegated everything else.
I don't do anything else. Seven days a week.
Erick: Nice. Okay. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely can relate to learning by teaching. Um, for me, when I started this podcast, like I was telling you before that it was simply a practice podcast. I was like, I want to make a podcast someday and I keep putting it off. I'm going to just create a test podcast to learn how to do it.
So that I feel comfortable with it and stoicism was what was what I was studying at the time and So I started doing that and then it got popular and so I was like, oh, this is this is cool But more than anything it was that I was learning so much about it by teaching other people about it by talking about it And sitting down and, and working through these things in my mind to the point where now I feel like it's something that is definitely integrated into the core of who I am.
You know, everything that I see now is through a stoic lens of how can I handle this in a way that aligns with my values and my principles. And stoicism is that framework for me. And so,
John: Well, it was stoicism from what I remember was dedicated to studying universal or natural laws. What are you going to call them?
Because there were the personal anthropomorphic deity pathways and there was the impersonal. Uh, like fails, who was more of an objective, you know, scientist type, you know, and whether you called it natural laws of the universe or what they call divine laws of the universe, I didn't matter to me. They were basically the principles that stood the test of time that we can observe in life and nature.
And to live in accordance with that was living by your divine design or living according to the logos or the plan of nature. And I was, you know, I'm very much involved in, in that thinking, um, and believe that there was a hidden order in the chaos. I never was satisfied with the idea of random, you know, thermodynamic entropic pursuits.
I was always believing there was a way of finding, go beyond that. That's, I've been doing that since I was 18. Finding the hidden order, you know, is, it was, uh, the modern mathematician, Stephen Wolfram, that basically said that The difference between disorder and order is the computational boundary in our levels of algorithmic thinking.
And if we have ability to think beyond what our first senses say, um, we can, we can discern, uh, the hidden order in the chaos and come up with mathematical abstractions that are allowing us to go beyond the initial assumption that there's some sort of disorder. And I was never satisfied with the idea that it's all disorder.
It has to be. There has to be some meaning and reason for it. And I guess, I mean, how can a scientist even call himself a scientist or herself a scientist if they didn't believe that there was some sort of rational order of the universe? If you would never pursue it, never waste your time looking for it.
So I guess there's an innate part of us that has this connection to this natural order that the Stoics were referring to.
Erick: Yeah, I think for me, uh, when I, so I'm working on a book on stoicism right now, I was contacted by a publisher in the States. And so I've had to really dig into more of the technical aspects of stoicism.
And so I really kind of dug into logos and understanding what that was about. And for me, having grown up, I grew up Mormon, and I left the church in my thirties, um, because it never, never felt right, never seemed to fit me. And so after that, we, you know, kind of went on my own journey of finding things and then found Stoicism.
It's like, ah, this is that framework that I've been looking for. So I'm very kind of anti Stoicism. I guess not anti God, but this idea of a, you know, an old white guy with a beard sitting up in the clouds, judging us for every little thing that we do or don't do. Um, but the idea of the logos as a, as just a creative force in the universe, the animating force of why there is something rather than nothing and why, why life tends to move towards order as far as organizing into order.
beings into animals, into plants, into, you know, it's structures that, you know, crystalline structures, those types of things. Yeah. Kind of an entry anti entropy, the idea that there's a creative force. And so I can appreciate that. And that's, that's kind of their search for it. But I always found that anybody who said, well, there is a God and they were so sure of it, I'm like, you don't know.
You honestly don't know. I lived this way for 32 years, pretending that I believed this stuff. And then one day, once I found out, you know, stuff about it, you know, the founder of Mormonism and all the, the crap that he had done and what, how he was really just a very, he was a con man and a pedophile. And then his predecessor, not a predecessor is the guy who took over Brigham Young was even worse than him.
It was like, okay, this, this is not. God's word, this is abuse of power. And so I was, I was able to leave in short order because it was once I've finally made that realization. So I went from, you know, well, believing hardcore, trying to believe hardcore too, I'm not sure what I believe too. Okay. I know I don't believe that.
And if it was all just a matter of perception, then I don't believe that any one religion has a monopoly on what's really true, and then they're all just making it up as they go along, because if I could be fooled once by that, then anybody else could be fooled by anybody else claiming these things. So, yeah, go ahead.
John: It was, uh, Paul Dirac, the Nobel Prize winner, wrote The Principles of Quantum Mechanics. In 1947, he said, it's not that we don't know so much. We know so much that it's so, you know, I use the analogy when you're a young boy or girl in science class in elementary school, you probably have at the front of the class, a series of little balls from hydrogen to helium, to lithium, to beryllium, to boron, to carbon, to nitrogen, oxygen up the, up the periodic table.
And each one is a little bit larger because it has more protons, neutrons, electrons. And you see these little plastic balls and sticks in a box, and you, your frame of reference is that, that an atom is a ball. Then you go on to high school, and you get introduced to the Bohr model, and you think, no, it's a little solar system.
It has protons and neutrons, and it's got electrons going around it, and it's a little solar system.
Erick: Yeah.
John: And then you go on to college, and it's a probability distribution based on complex mathematics, the square root of negative one in Schrodinger's equations. Yeah. And it's probability distributions of where electrons might be with high probability of when those kind of orbitals, then you go on to get your PhD yourself.
And then you realize it's been renormalized infinities based on infinitesimals. And these are just models that have glitches in them. And we really get really abstract. And so as the Buddha says, we had to teach them the illusion to the ready for truth.
Erick: Yes.
John: And that's the way religions are. You have the celestial mysteries put into terrestrial histories for the personification of a deity.
So an anthropomorphic connection of human beings can relate to it. And so they have to teach them those illusions until they're ready for truth. And the truth is so abstract, the average person IQ doesn't comprehend it. And so it's, it becomes a mathematical symmetry and a conservation law and the laws of nature at the highest levels.
Okay. And it transcends the personification and then anthropomorphisms or zoomorphisms that it had to go through. And so you teach them the illusion until you're ready for truth. But those that are literate will stay at those different scales. And those that are more literate go up the scales until people are willing to pursue the great mysteries and ask the deeper questions of life.
And so I, I, I see that everything is, is a stage of awareness and, um, I've seen myself go through those stages in my journey and many people are at different stages and we need a social structure. So I guess that's why they're there. Can't everybody be, they can't all be CEOs of a company. They've got, somebody has got to have different levels of awareness.
Erick: Yeah, exactly. And I found that with myself is I've grown in my. spiritual, I'll call it spiritual, but not religious, uh, journey in that finding stoicism, you know, what I first learned things they were, it was like, Oh, this is great. This, this shifts my perspective on the world in a pretty dramatic way. But in writing this book on stoicism and really digging into a lot of, like I said, some of the technical things and recognizing, you know, like the, their stress on living with virtue.
And I was like, okay, this comes up over and over and over and over and over. And it's like, why was that so important? And really starting to internalize what it means to live. in accordance with virtue and how that changes my whole worldview and my personal worldview, meaning my whole world is how I look at the world and everything outside, but then also my, my, my local view of how I treat other people and how I'm, you know, just how I interact.
You know, just as I'm walking along rather than the bigger, grander gestures. Um, but speaking of, of quantum mechanics and stuff like that, um, kind of the opening of your book, the essentials of emotional intelligence, you kind of run through an idea, at least for me, the way that I saw it was the merging of the two ideas, or maybe the same idea, just different explanations of the logos with.
Quantum mechanics and how those two things operate. Um, it was some pretty heady stuff. Um, it's one of those things where I was like, okay, these were a lot of ideas that I was thinking about and trying to put in. into, into a way that I could actually organize it in a way that my brain could truly understand it.
But I would have like this little bit of an idea, this little bit of an idea. And so I really appreciated that. It reminds me, um, reminds me a little bit of the theory of panpsychism in the idea that All particles have a certain level of consciousness and choice and that based upon their, their abilities, meaning what they, what they are allowed to choose or not, you know, in some it's very simple.
You can spin this way or spin that way. And that, but there, there's a consciousness of it and that we are just a collective conscious of all of these atoms. Is that kind of what you were going for? Or what is it? What is it about? I don't know. This theory, and maybe you can kind of give a brief overview in a less technical way that maybe people who are listening to this might be able to, to grok a little bit better.
John: Well, it's interesting. I was with Freeman Dyson. He passed away now, but he was at the Institute of Advanced Studies. And we had a, we've had three great conversations. He had made an entry into Scientific American, 1993, August edition, I believe, that was about what would happen to intelligence in the universe if it was to continue to expand according to the big bang model and go to thermodynamic equilibrium, what would happen to the, all the information.
And he said it would be stored in charged particles of light. And so I went and visited with him to have the discussion about that. How would that be? And he believed he was a panpsychic. He was a believer. That at the quantum level, these particles are making decisions, um, kind of like a Schrodinger's, you know, box, you know, it becomes half alive or dead.
It's making a decision to go one way or the other and decoherent instead of superposition itself. And so his idea was that I first started getting involved in going back literally to Heraclitus when he talked about the unity of opposites. Yeah. When I, when I studied his work and, and, and Parmenides who talked about being and, um, change and things of these, I thought it, could you have a pair of opposites?
Could they be unified at a higher level of abstraction? And they could be registered in our physical senses as one or the other, based on the subjective biases that we do in our interpretation, a confirmation bias and a disconfirmation bias in awareness. Thank you very much. A false positive and false negative in our perceptions.
And I've said that, maybe there's a unity that underlies this apparent dichotomy. And this dichotomy isn't really a dichotomy. It's an apparent dichotomy. Um, but actually there's a unity that's entangled them. And that's a quantum physics principle, a superposition. And then you measure it and you get something that's entangled with the other thing.
And it's still functioning as a unit. So I think quantum physics allows us to at least metaphorically, uh, take the observations we have in psychology, where you have elation, depression, joy, sorrow, positive, negative, which are actually inseparable from each other. I always say that depression is a comparison of your current reality to a fantasy that you're related with.
And when life isn't matching that fantasy, you're depressed. But you're holding both of them, one's conscious, the other's unconscious, but they're held together in a unity. And if you know how to ask the right questions, you can reveal that unity and the inseparability of those two pairs of opposites. So the psyche, um, that's born out of that logos, um, and you have a dialectic that's formed, uh, a proposition and an anti proposition that's paradoxical.
And, um, contrary pairs and that they still have a unity, they're non dualism. So I think that that, we see that in EI ratios, excitation inhibition ratios in the brain, we see that in memory and anti memories and Neuron Magazine back in 2016, we see that in, in all homeostatic feedback systems inside physiology, Uh, there's a unity that's, you know, even though there's a apparent perturbation, there's a counterbalancing system there that's neutralizing it.
Um, and so I could go and we could go to the subatomic particle world and we can see the emergence and submergence of particles and nanoparticles. We can go to the astronomical world and see the annihilation in black holes of stars and the birth of stars coming out of the black holes. We can see these pairs of unity of opposites at all scales of existence and in cosmology to quantum mechanics.
And it occurs inside the human psyche. So I think that that design of that unity of opposites that is all mental, which in a sense is a panpsychic expression, um, has a way of demonstrating itself at all scales. If we look at it, In sociology, we have the law of heuristic escalation, when in part of chaos theory, that anytime you have an ideologist or an ideologue that basically initiates an ideology, an equal and opposite ideology, you know, emerges simultaneously with it to counterbalance it.
And we see that on a classical collective scale, we see it inside the psyche. The second we're infatuated with something and philic towards something, we have a phobia of its loss. And the second we're phobic to something, we have a philic of escape. And so the, these pairs of opposites are all unified.
And if we ask the right question, we can see the unity. And I, I've developed methodology. It's, I call it my method, Demartini method, uh, to help people awaken to the unity inside that opposite. Because that's where our most authentic self is. That's the golden mean. You might say that Aristotle said between excess and deficiency, which is the unit of opposites.
That's, that's the, do we have the courage to be that? Do we have the wisdom to reveal that? Do we have the temperance to be living that? And do we have the justice and prudence to be able to discern that? And that's the virtues of the Stoics. Um, can we, can we have the transcendental awareness that young, uh, that, uh, can't describe, um, to reveal that to ourselves and live that, you know, garbage in, garbage out.
But if we can see that we can live that. And that's the law of nature because nature tends to have the conservation of these pairs of opposites.
Erick: Yeah. I, as I was reading your book, it was interesting to me because I really appreciated The fact that you were talking about, you know, the stoic ideal of, you know, nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.
And that if you can look at everything as just a neutral thing, and they're just, there are things moving one way, things moving the other way, and, but you need both those things to keep balance because if you have one without the other, then everything gets lopsided. So, and our bodies, our minds are, are built for equilibrium because if we are too, too One thing over the other, that's when dysfunction happens, when somebody becomes too depressed, then they get suicidal, when they don't feel any sort, you know, if they're always just pretending to be up, or they're always in this elated state, that's not helpful either, because they don't get anything done, and so you need that balance between, and it's that equilibrium, and our, our bodies are responsive to that, anytime that we take a pleasure hit from something, we get some dopamine, dopamine.
The body has a counter reaction to try and balance it and bring it back into alignment.
John: Hedonic adaptation and hedonic treadmill, uh, the hedonic paradox. You know, what's interesting is if you perceive someone, um, and you're conscious of the positives, unconscious of the negatives, and you have an impulse to seek with an infatuation or admiration that individual, you're blind to half of it.
Your intuition is trying to whisper to you to get you back in homeostasis. You're But you're perturbed by it. You activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is anabolic. You didn't want to go and consume it and eat it. You might say it's prey. And then what happens is the parasympathetic activates epigenetic acetylation to change the protein transcriptions in the body to create symptoms.
And so the symptoms are there to let you know, as a homeostatic feedback, to let you know that you're not seeing things as they actually are. You're seeing things that you realize. Subjective senses. And um, so you're not in virtue, you're in your, you're in your, one of your vices, you might say. An excess of positive and deficiency of negative.
Erick: Yeah. And that's really what that, to me, I see that as kind of like, that's really what addiction is about. Exactly.
John: That's what addiction is. Incomplete awareness.
Erick: Yeah. That it's a, a seeking a, a specific thing like this is, this is the thing. And then your body tries to compensate because this is too much.
This is over that line that we're out of alignment here, which is why when people, when, you know, the, the crash up to the high is so brutal is because it's not just that your body is missing that thing that it wants, you know, that it's become addicted to. Yeah. Yeah. But then your body is also trying to correct and give you the opposite to bring you back into homeostasis.
And I think that's
John: What's interesting is it's actually, it's actually occurring simultaneously, but we have a lag period before we realize it. Wilhelm Wundt in 1897 wrote a book that was published, he wrote it in 1896, The Principles of Psychology. He said that there was simultaneous contrast and sequential contrast.
When people see sequential contrast, they have mood swings, cyclothymia. They go off in this direction and then they have a lag period and then they go in the other direction. And so they eventually come to homeostasis over time and that time difference is what ages us. It's the arrow of time that separates memory and imagination and causes entropy.
But if we had simultaneous awareness of the two sides, We don't have time oscillations. There's the immortal, you might say. And so there's no time if you were present. And so the quality of our life is based on the quality of the questions we ask. If we ask questions immediately upon the perception of a one sided world, and our intuition will reveal that answer.
If we ask the question, I found people even taking heroin. I'd like to work with all kinds of people.
At the moment they're in their high and they're in this elated experience, If I ask them the right question and get them there and get really present there, they're already having paranoia, anxieties, and, and fears going on in their psyche, but they're not ready to see that unless I bring it to their attention.
It's simultaneously there, but they're unaware of it. They've got a disconfirmation bias on that information, and they're not, um, they're not aware of it, but it's there. So these are actually simultaneously unified, but we, with our subjective bias, blocks ourself from seeing it, As a survival mechanism. If we didn't have that survival mechanism, we wouldn't be able to capture prey because we need it to accelerate our body with adrenaline to capture prey or to avoid predator.
So we have to just, we have to distort things and in survival mechanisms. But once we come out of the survival mechanism, our objective mind can come back and see them simultaneous. So if I hold them accountable to see the other side and bring it to their awareness, I can take them out of the withdrawal symptoms from the drug that they think they're taking and show them the pain in that moment.
And then the oxytocin and the anandamide and all the chemical compounds that are pleasure compounds are calmed down without even having to take, you know, to anti bring in an anti drug to do it. I can change the chemistry in the brain by asking the right questions. And all of a sudden they come off the heroin without the side effects.
Yeah. Because it's the, it was the content in the mind. It was actually creating the neurochemistry. It wasn't just the drug.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. Which reminds me a lot of, uh, some of the experiments that they do with psychedelics, helping people overcome, you know, severe issues, uh, such as, you know, people who are terminally ill and taking, doing a psilocybin trip and how they were so afraid going into, you know, meaning I'm going to be dying soon and it's terminal.
There's nothing I can do about it. And, One or two trips of walking them through and it's not just the drug itself, but it's the experience and the journey that they are taken through that completely resets their mind in one, maybe two trips, and then they have no fear of death anymore because it's changed their whole thought process and I'm sure that part of that, you know, every time we have a thought and we think through things, our brain chemistry changes slightly.
So I'm sure that If there was a way that you could measure the brain chemistry before versus after, you'd probably see a fairly dramatic shift.
John: Yeah. Our fear of death is really a fear of loss of pride and fear of loss of the fantasies that we're holding on to. I have, I have the opportunity to take people through the grief process. I developed a method for since 1976 on that and uh, we can dissolve grief. It's not, it's, it's just a neurochemistry.
You can play with it. You can alter it. So it's basically asking questions, make them cognizant of things they were unconscious of, balance out the equation. And all of a sudden they're neutral again. We only fear the loss of things we infatuate with. We only fear the gain of things we resent. If we're completely neutral, we don't have the fear of loss or fear of gain.
We just have the ability to transform. I always said a master lives in a world of transformation and the masters live in the illusions of gain and loss.
Erick: Interesting. It reminds me of, uh, when I was a kid, I'd watch the old kung fu movies and you see, you know, the young student who was all like aggression and, you know, he's going to kill, he's going to do it.
He's just, and he's just go, go, go, go, go. You see the Zen master who is just walking along, peaceful, placid, and anybody who attacks him, you know, with anger, he just uses that anger against them. And I always thought that was so fascinating. And like, how would you develop a mindset like that? And so that, that ability to look at things neutrally, like allows you to look at things purely objectively, I guess, in a Vulcan sort of way of, okay, what this person is saying, what they're doing, it's just words coming out of their mouth, you know, and the Storks were great about that, about breaking things down to their most constituent components.
This person made vocal sounds with their vocal cords that came out of their mouth towards me. You know, at the, at his fundamental level, that's what, what it would be if somebody was shouting or yelling at you or swearing at you. And so when you can look at it through that lens, then it takes all the emotion out of it.
Then you can go, okay, now I can look at what my judgment was about those sounds that were, that were uttered out of their, their vocal cords.
John: There was a friend of mine who was a interesting teacher. And he had this student who was very infatuated with this attractive woman. He thought, and the teacher said, he, the student said, I, I can't get her out of my mind.
I I'm, I'm obsessed by her. I have intrusive thoughts. I can't sleep. I'm so in love with her and infatuated with her. And he said, just see your girlfriend now, take her hair and put it over here, take out her teeth and put them over here. Now take out our balls, eyeballs, eyeballs and put them here. Take her intestines and put them over here and take her, her skin and lay it over here.
And all her bones are laid out over here. And just reframe the entire perception, broke it down into these parts. And, uh, when you reduce it like that into its parts, it has different associations that you make bones. Skin, take all the blood, put that in a little, a little bowl . And all of a sudden he was like, okay, I'm not infatuated with her anymore.
'cause he made associations that have the downsides to counterbalance the upsides. And then he was able to be thinking more clearly again instead of infatuation. 'cause you're infa, you're blind by the infatuation.
Erick: Absolutely. I, I remember as a teenager and even as an adult, you know, being so infatuated with somebody, thinking the world of them.
And I think that, um, in my long term relationships, it definitely caused issues because this is one of the things that I wanted to get on. I have here. My notes was what I put down as the pedestal in the pit and I really love that imagery because. With my last long term relationship, I definitely put her up on a pedestal, which was very unfair to her and to me because I always felt like I was unworthy in that relationship and I was always trying to get her to love me and so for a long, and that was probably the biggest downfall of our relationship was that because of my own past trauma, I didn't believe that that somebody could truly love me for who I was.
And so anytime she was annoyed, frustrated, angry with me, my brain interpreted to that, see, she doesn't love you. And so then I would get more and more angry because I would be saying, you know, because I was desperate for her to love me. And she was trying to, she was honestly trying to, and my ex wife the same way.
They were both trying to love me, but I wouldn't let them because I couldn't believe that they would because What I finally figured out here, you know, in the last couple of years was that I didn't think that I was worthy of love. So therefore they couldn't love me. And so I had to, I had to work through that.
John: Anytime you're in a relationship and you're too humble to admit what you see in them inside you, even though you actually have those behaviors inside you, but you're too humble to admit it. You're blind to it. You'll put them on a pedestal, minimize yourself, inject their values in your life, attempt to live in their values for fear of loss of them, sacrifice what's important to you, but they don't feel they have a match.
And the underdog wants monopoly and wants to close the deal and bring them down and say, let's get married. The overdog, not the underdog wants to keep the options open because they don't feel they've got a match. And they want somebody that can not fear the loss, you know, or when you're an underdog, you're afraid to say negative things.
When you're the overdog, you're afraid to say positive things because you don't want to mislead them because you know that this is not a match.
Erick: Yeah.
John: But nature forces them into it. You get angry and eventually come up, she gets humbled or she leaves. And then you get to learn that you're not here to find somebody that you're admiring.
And put on a pedestal, you're here to find somebody to put in your heart, not on the pedestal, not in the pit, because either one of those will create symptoms to get you back into the heart.
Erick: Absolutely. And I, what I love about that is that in your book, you talked about by understanding the kind of the pedestal in the pit and trying to find that equilibrium.
Then you look at all people that way with that kind of equilibrium. You, you do your best to not be overly infatuated with somebody you think is amazing or to hate somebody that you don't like some of the things about them and Oftentimes, as you know, we all know, usually the things you don't like about other people are things you don't like about yourself.
John: Not always. It's a reflection of what you
Erick: Yeah, not always for sure. But I think
John: I've taken a hundred and twenty I've taken a hundred and twenty five thousand people, and I have them every week in my breakthrough experience. I say, okay, give me the person that you resented most in your life.
Erick: Yeah.
John: They all find the person that they resent.
I said, write down the number one specific trait, action, or inaction that you perceive that they displayed or demonstrated that you presented the most. And they'll say whether they're verbally critical, or they're evasive, or they lied, or they did this, or whatever it is. And I have them write it down. Now, I'll go to a moment where, and when you perceive yourself displaying or demonstrating that same specific trait, action or inaction that you admired or despised in them.
Okay. Oh, I swear I never do that. I pride myself on never doing that. They try to dodge it. I say, look again. And I make them look and look and look and look. Until they go, Oh yeah, in this case, I did it here and here and here and here. And I'm making them keep looking until the quantity and quality is equal.
And then they realize that the only reason they resent people on the outside is it because they represent on the outside parts of them they're ashamed of on the inside that they've dissociated from and built up a false pride to protect themselves. And they want to be around that person because it reminds them of what they don't love about themselves.
Yeah. And so that person that they're presenting is the teacher to try to wake 'em up, to love that part of themselves and reintegrate that part. They've just summed.
Erick: Yeah.
John: And when they, when they do that, they love the person and then they're not even resent. 'cause it had nothing to do with what the person did.
Yeah. It was everything to do with how they perceived it.
Erick: Yeah. A good example of that, in my case, there was this guy back in Portland, um, he always hit on my girlfriend and on my ex-partner. And it just, it really annoyed me and there were just a lot of things about it. Um, and I told her one time, you know, I'm like, uh, he really just, he really gets under my skin and, and she just turned and looked at me and she goes, Oh, that's interesting.
And she's like, but you know, our other friend will hit on me from time to time. Why doesn't that bother you? I'm like, well, because I trust him and like him and this guy just, and she goes, well, the funny thing is you two are so much alike. And I was like, I am not like him. And then she's like, think about it.
You, you are, I want you to think about that. And then I was like, okay, well, he does kind of remind me of my younger brother. There's some things that my younger brother does, which would annoy me. And so I'm like, so I guess I can see those similarities, which then led me to kind of piece through. I'm like, oh, okay.
Oh yeah. He does that thing, which, Um, and so I started being much more aware of that, which made me much more forgiving of that and much more easy, better to accept that. But then also around the same time, he got a new partner who really pointed out a lot of the things that he did that were just. You know, just by the way, these are things you do and it may be off putting to other people.
And he's like, I do? Because he was kind of unaware of those things as well. And over time, we actually got to be pretty good friends because I was able to just accept that, yeah, some of those things that I don't like about you, I, yeah, they're things that I do or have done or think about doing, or, or they're behaviors that I used to do, but I've curbed them, but they are kind of part of who I am anyway.
I'm just I'm, I'm holding them back and shutting them down because they're not acceptable in certain circles. And so, yeah,
John: Social injection. Exactly. And so it was injection. And we, we think we're supposed to be a certain way by this moral hypocrisy that we've been entrained by. You know, I went to the auction English dictionary 40 years ago.
Once I realized that what I saw in others is a reflection of me and real true authenticity is the willingness to own it all. And quit trying to pretend you don't have those traits. So I went to the Oxford English dictionary 40 years ago, and I looked and underlined every known human behavioral trait I could find in there.
I found 4, 628 traits. And then I put out on the outside margin, who do I know displays that trait to the highest degree. And I put their little initials and their name. And then I went inside to one by one, this is how neurotic I am at times. I went one by one and identified where and when I displayed that behavior until it was equal to the person that I thought was the most extreme.
And I just kept digging and digging. And when I got to a point where I realized it was them, the people that had those behaviors no longer pushed my button because I already owned it. We only get our buttons pushed with admiration or despise To the degree that we disown the trait that we see in them.
Once we realize that, and we can own it and see the upsides and the downsides equally, we have equanimity within ourself relative to all those behaviors. We can now be our whole self and quit trying to get rid of some part of ourselves and gain some part of ourselves, which is futile.
Erick: Yeah. One of the things that I found interesting, um, for me, And maybe you can kind of comment on this and we were talking about, um, that acceptance of others really helps us to accept ourselves.
I,
I had a blow up with my ex partner. This is about three, three and a half years ago, and I was really, really hurt by it. I, she, she had done something which, you know, talking to anybody else, like, yeah, that was really hurtful. Um, and I was furious with her and I was, You know, getting into an argument about it over and over and over, and I was just like, I could not let it go.
And I was like, when I, when we finally got home, we'd been on a, we'd been at a festival camping. Um, it took a week and just really, I was like, why did that hurt so much? Why does this bother me so much? Why can't I be very stoic about this? And what I came to find out was that I felt like I needed her validation to be a good person.
That if she was upset with me, annoyed with me, frustrated, that I told me that I was a bad person. I'm like, okay, if that's the case, then why do I feel like I'm a bad person that I need somebody to tell me I'm okay? And I was like, that's interesting. So I, I sat down and I thought, what is it about me that is so bad that I don't think I'm a good person?
And so I was like, that's a really good question. What is it? So I sat down and wrote down everything I didn't like about myself, all the things that, you know, just, and I basically, you know, and those are the things that we'd never really want to look at because we don't want to, we don't want to face that monster.
We don't want to see those things. Because they feel incredibly scary, they feel incredibly vulnerable. And when I did that, I just listed out everything I didn't like about myself and then I went back and looked at the list. And it was kind of like, I had this moment of like, Huh, there's nothing on here that's really all that bad.
Like, my friends struggle with these things. And if my friend came to me with this list and said, Hey, this is all the bad shit about me, I would have just been like, okay, I already know, you know, yeah, I know you do these things and I still love you and accept you. So I'm like, so why can't I do that for myself?
And for me, that was such a huge turning point because it was like, it was kind of like, I never really wanted to look at those things because in my brain, it was a scary monster. It's kind of like seeing the flitting. Shadow out of the corner of your eye and thinking it's a monster because you can't get a clear view of it.
But then you turn around and look and it's just a shadow coming off a tree from the moonlight or something like that. And so when I do that exercise with people, it's fascinating for me. When I say I want you to sit down and write down all the things you don't like about this yourself. Just almost, almost invariably, there's this look of horror like, Oh, I could never do that.
And I find that just incredibly fascinating. And I think that we're go ahead.
John: You know, I, about, oh gosh, 40 years ago, again, I gave up that illusion, the moral hypocrisy. So we're taught from our grandmothers and parents and things like that. Be nice. Don't be mean, be kind, don't be cruel, be positive. Don't be negative, be generous.
Don't be stingy, be giving, don't be taking, be peaceful. Don't be wrathful. All one sided hypocrisies. No human being is that. I'm not a nice person. I'm a not a mean person. Those are personas. I'm an individual human being with a set of values. When you support my values, I'm nice as a pussycat. When you challenge my values, I'm mean as a tiger.
As long as I'm addicted to nice, mean's going to hurt.
Erick: Yeah.
John: As long as I'm addicted to one side, I'm going to be subjected from the other. And if one is associated with pleasure, the other is going to be associated with pain because it's a separation of pairs of opposites. And the mind tries to add space and time to the authentic self, the unity of opposites and separate the inseparables and divide the indivisibles and label the unlabelables and names the inevitables and polarizes the unpolarizables and makes us think we should get rid of half of that.
And I tell people, if you're trying to get rid of half of yourself, you never love yourself because all of it is needed. All parts. The idea of a shadow side is really an illusion. Because we're, what is the shadow in, in, in, uh, in Africa, the former Zuma, uh, Jacob Zuma was the president of South Africa at nine wives in America.
You go to prison for it. So is he evil? And this is now it's evil here, but it's good. They're tribally. That's good. You're powerful.
You wouldn't want a leader that didn't have that power. And so these are moral traps, moral paradoxes, moral hypocrisies, That are used by, you might say, oppressors over the oppressed.
Anytime an oppressor has had their values challenged, they set up a rule to prevent them from actually growing, and honoring the parts of themselves. And then they put it into a system, and then it gets passed down as moral hypocrisy. And then we get trapped in these ideas about one sidedness. And the truth is, there's nothing really to get rid of.
There's nothing to seek. There's nothing to avoid. There's something to love. And it's not even about acceptance, because we go through this idea that we've got to accept that part of ourselves. Well, that's sort of saying that it's not what I really want. But it's appreciating those sides. You need to, those sides are necessary.
If somebody comes up to you and says, Boy, I'm about to kill your daughter, Um, and there's a gun there, a knife there, and they're about to stab your daughter and you grab the knife and you think you can pull it off and get rid of them before they get rid of your daughter. You probably have a situational ethic where you're going to say, well, maybe in this case, aggression has a value.
So situational ethics are going to make us come to the edge and boundary of our own bias and allow us to embrace all parts of ourselves. And if you try to repress it and suppress it, unconsciously or unconsciously, you're going to attract the person, the villain to make you come out with it, to teach you how to love all parts of yourself.
Erick: Yeah. I think the reason that I had to start with acceptance was because the idea of liking or loving it was too much. And so I started with that, just accepting that this is reality. This is, these are things about me, but again, nothing on it was so awful that I looked at it and went, Oh, I can't accept that.
And so when I work with people to get them over their own, like, you know, uh, recoiling of it, using the word acceptance is much easier. Can you just accept the
John: starting point?
Erick: Yeah. And then, and then that starts that integration process of, yeah. Okay. I can be selfish sometimes. I'm not a selfish person, but I can be selfish.
I can be rude. I can be angry. I can be hypocritical. Okay. I can accept those things. I'm all those things. And so what that does is that allows you so that when you are acting in a way that is hypocritical, it doesn't really align with your values or your you're being selfish in a way that doesn't truly align with your values.
And somebody points it out, you can go, you know what, I can be selfish sometimes. So then you can actually look at it and go, yeah, you know what, I was being selfish at this time. It allows you to take ownership of those things. And that for me was really fascinating. Yeah, but the thing is,
John: I, I've been studying values 46 years and I assure that the values that we say that we're afraid of breaking, they're not ours.
They're the injected values of mothers, fathers, preachers, teachers, conventions, traditions of morays. That have been based on a, an assumption that one side's better than the other, but the real actual you is not judging it. It's the, the, the superego is Freud called it, which is the injected value of an outer authority that you subordinated to, that you fear the loss of starting with mommy.
That has inculcated into your consciousness. And that's the part that's judging it. You're just a human being with both sides. And we go through and we get in this, this socialization, this conventionalization inside us as we go through life. As Kohlberg says, we start out with reward and punishment. We go to pre conventional association, mothers and fathers, and then we go up the ladder until we eventually get to transcendence.
And we abide by the laws of the universe, which transcends the moral hypocrisies that most societies are trapped in.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I can definitely see that. So do you think that the stoic virtues So wisdom, courage, temperance, justice, do you think that those are then things that I guess attributes, if you will, or, I mean, I guess they're virtues that transcend the duality, the dual side of it, because there are things that are moderated ones.
And okay. Because for me, I was thinking of it. I was thinking about that and I was like, okay, so these are values that you don't have to divorce one from the other because they are, I guess they contain both sides or they're in the middle?
John: They're, they're the middle. That's why Aristotle said it's the golden mean, the true virtue is the golden mean between access and deficiency of perception.
If we look at where our voids, see our voids determine our values and our voids come from anything we're too proud or too humble to admit that we see in outside things inside ourselves. So anytime we judge and we think, well, I'm too humble or too proud to admit what I see in you inside me, I have a disowned part.
That empty disowned part from the judgment drives the values And our highest value where we're most objective is the most efficient, effective pathway to fulfill the greatest amount of voids with the greatest amount of value. That's why it's fulfilling. And that is where temperance is. That's the center point.
That's where true wisdom is, which is the synthesis of opposites. The dialectic is wisdom, the pursuit of epistemological true knowledge. And that is also the courage to be oneself, the courage to be oneself in a society that's trying to make you one sided. The courage to be nice, mean, as Machiavelli says in the Prince, you know, I'm, I have to be nice and mean and kind and cruel.
And Nietzsche says, I have to be the virtuous, I'm the most virtuous and the most vicious. I have to own all that if I want to be authentic. And so then there's prudence. The prudence is to know when to use which one and then justice is to bring it back into balance. So those are the trends of dentals that have been the four cardinal pillars of the, of the Stoics and the Greeks at the time.
Erick: Yeah, interesting, because I wanted, you know, it, because I had wondered for quite a while of why they settled on those four. And for me, What I came to understand is the, that they're interconnected with each other. They each support each other and because you can't have wisdom. Yeah, you can't have wisdom without courage because you gain wisdom through being courageous and doing things.
That developing that self awareness, uh, seeking knowledge. Being willing to be thought of as a fool because you don't know anything And so it takes courage to gain wisdom But to be courageous and also it takes wisdom because you have to know how to be courageous You have to know when to stand up and when to retreat Uh, it takes, you know, injustice, how you treat other people.
Well, it takes wisdom to know how to treat other people. It takes courage to stand up for what is right when it comes to how you treat other people. And then temperance is the bow that wraps all around that.
John: When we're infatuated with somebody. And we're conscious of the upsides and unconscious downsides that we fear their loss.
When we're resentful to somebody and we're conscious of the downsides, unconscious of the upsides, both with subjective biases, we fear their gain. When we're completely neutral, transcendent, not attached, the middle path, moksha, liberation, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it. We're in the center.
We're not attached. We don't fear the loss. We don't fear the gain. That's the temperate path. That's the moderation. That's the golden virtue. And that means we don't have the fear of loss. We don't have the fear of gain. We're not living in fear. That was what courage meant. Courage meant the heart, in the center, in the heart.
Erick: The cour
We had to be able to be heartful and we can't open a heart. As long as we have parasympathetic activity and we have bradycardia or sympathetic activity, we get tachycardia. And we get a delta waves or beta waves. We don't get alpha theta waves and gamma synchronicities in the brain, which opens the heart with Eureka moments of inspiration.
We're not authentic. So nature is bringing us back to the center. All, all of our physiology, psychology, sociology, even our theologies are feedback mechanisms to get us to be authentic in the heart, to have the wisdom and the love of wisdom and the wisdom of love. And that's what philosophy was about.
That's what the Stoics were trying to say. And that's a non attached, non judgmental, neutral individual that's able to see both sides simultaneously and realize it's all reflection of me. And everything's a test to find out whether you've honored your own parts. Because if you don't react, that means you've honored your parts.
You've been objective about the truth of life, the logos. If not, you're in pathology. And you're in non resilient, non adaptability, the maladaptive state of the, of the bias, which makes us our own nature, the affections as Aristotle said. So we, we can trap in our impulses and instincts so we can be awakened through our intuitions and inspirations.
So why do you think that most people stay in their illusions? Why they, why they don't work for that transcendence that they They take what's given to them and just go, yep, this is how it is. And don't, don't seek that. Or do you think that most people are seeking that they just don't know where to look?
John: Thousands of years ago, possibly millions, humans were supposedly nomadic and they were generalist and they had to, you know, fend for themselves. And. And then kinship developed and then township developed and then communities and state cities and then states and sedentary division of labor, economic systems, markets started developing, people became dependent on specialties and they couldn't function on their own.
Right now, if we were to go out in wild nature, most of us wouldn't survive. So we became more and more dependent and therefore fitting into society and conforming to society became stronger. And yet we stagnate. If we don't have some renegade maverick that comes in and stimulates a new thinking, we have to have the renegade.
Ernest Becker in his denial of death, talked about the immortality quotients, the collective reality or the individual hero mentality. And do we have the courage to walk an individual path to make a difference? Or do we just fit into society before the fear and we just want to fit in with our mirror neurons?
Most people would rather fit in and not be rejected and want to be accepted. Very few people have the ability to walk an unborrowed visionary path, blaze a new trail, uh, set a new idea, be ridiculed, violently opposed until it becomes self evident and change the world. But it requires a few of those.
Can't have everybody like that, but we can have a few. And the ones that do, they leave their mark as immortals. The people that don't, they, they faded into oblivion because they were just fitting into the thing. If you ask people, how many want to make a difference in the world, everybody puts a hand up, but how are you going to make a difference fitting in?
You're going to make a difference standing out. Few people have the courage, the wisdom, the temperance, the prudence to stand out. Those were the great philosophers and thinkers of the times, the innovators, the polymaths, the geniuses, the Renaissance people that were able to be the misfits as Jobs calls them.
Erick: Yeah, I thought about that. Yeah, I thought about that at one point, that We need people to throw monkey wrenches at times because that's how things change because otherwise the status quo is, is going to hold like what Gandhi did, what Martin Luther King Jr. Did they, they were like, yeah, we have this status quo and it ain't working.
It works for some people, but it doesn't work for all of us. And they wanted to see that change. And so we need, and so it occurred to me, sometimes we need those people to come in and throw in a monkey wrench. Otherwise we're not going to make progress. We're going to stay how we are.
John: That's why we need this side called the shadow.
It's not a shadow.
It's just another part of ourself that we must have in order to master our life.
Erick: That's
John: why I don't, that's why I don't even use, except I just say appreciation for all parts of ourself. What other people, there's a spectrum of values out there from one extreme to the other, like synonyms and antonyms. And there's always going to be supporters and challengers and heroes and villains.
And there's always going to be people that like and dislike. And that's just inevitable. The question is, is can you love yourself with regardless of all those opinions projected on you? And know they're all true under different context. For instance, if it, I have a very high value on teaching and research.
And I love that. I do it every day. But somebody has a very high value on children and being here with the kids and having dinner every day and everything else. Would look at me and say, well, you're a terrible father. You don't see your kids every day. And, and they would, in the context of their projection, that would be totally true.
I'm a terrible father,
Erick: Mmm hm
John: somebody else would say, wow, you're such a good father because you're teaching them these principles and everything else. And I could, I could easily be swayed by people's opinions, but a people's opinions of the cheapest commodities on earth and those that circulate the most usually have the least values.
They're usually the ones that go viral. The real true masters, Sometimes their opinions are only in the hands of the masters. You know, that if you go put a great principle out in the market, it doesn't go viral. It has to be sensational and ridiculous to go viral in most cases. And so it's, it's, I don't go by what people's opinions, I go by what the calling is in life.
When the voice and the vision on the inside is louder than all opinions on the outside, you've begun to master your life. You know, in my contempt for authority made anyone, says Einstein. And Emerson says the, you know, envy is ignorance and imitation is suicide. We have to be willing to walk a path that's our own unique path based on what's valuable and do it in a way that serves people and, and, and, and honor a way of expressing what you value in terms of other people's values.
Cause they're not wrong either. They're necessary in the, in the giant cosmic picture. And the puzzle piece and they're just as valued. And if you have equanimity within yourself and equity between you and them, you can communicate respectfully your uniqueness in terms of theirs. And then they all of a sudden can help you fulfill what it is you'd love to do, even though they may have a different pathway.
Erick: Yeah. That was an interesting thing that you said in your book, um, had it written down here, it was, uh, understanding the, uh, how did you put it? Uh, communicating your highest values in terms of the other people's highest values. Can you just delve into that just a little bit more? Cause I liked that idea, but I didn't, it's like, I get it.
And then I'm like, I think I got it. No, I don't. So if you could dig into that, I'd appreciate it.
John: So every human being has a set of priorities and set of values that they live their life by. And if you look carefully at how they fill their space, what they spend their time on, what energizes them, what they spend their money on.
What is it that's most organized in their life? Where they're most disciplined in life? What do they think, visualize and internal dialogue with themselves about most, about how they want their life to be, that's showing evidence of coming true. What they converse with other people about spontaneously and love talking about, what inspires them and brings tears to their eyes.
What is it that there's the most consistent, persistent goals that they pursue that are coming true? And what is it they spontaneously want to learn about? Those give objective feedback on what is really important and valuable to that individual. Cause their life demonstrates that. You ask people their values, they'll tell you all kinds of crazy idealisms.
But if you look at what they're like, yeah, if you look at what their life demonstrates, you get an idea of what they're committed to. My life is teaching. I do it seven days a week. So it's hard, not, it's not hard to see what I'm up to. But once you find out what's highest on an individual's values, and then you ask the question, how is this individual?
With this high set of values, this set of values, this top one, how specifically in them being dedicated to that, helping me fulfill what I'm dedicated to, my highest value. If you ask that question and hold yourself accountable to answer it 30 times, you'll be brought to a tier of gratitude for the, for the magnificence of that individual in your life.
If you then go and ask how specifically is what I'm completely dedicated to helping them fulfill their value, You may never have done that. You may never even seen it. But once you ask the question, hold yourself accountable, you see it. The moment you do the dialogue between the two people now becomes respectful.
It's not an alternating monologue where one speaks, the other one listens. They both are now in dialogue. And I did this in Tokyo. I had 66 people, a little experiment. They didn't know each other, never met each other. We determined their values, which is on my website on how to do that. We determined their values.
It took about 30, 40 minutes. And then we did a linking for two hours out of the 66 people, 33 couples, 27 of them were in business with each other that month. Wow. Because they respected, they communicated, they articulated what they valued in terms of the other person's value spontaneously. Without having to fake it without having to appease without having to minimize themselves.
Cause if you minimize yourself to their values, you're going to altruistically sacrifice for them until you eventually resent that because you go, that's not fair to me. If you go the other way and you start down to them and try to get them to live in your values, eventually they will walk away because, and you'll get humbled.
But if you learn to communicate your values in terms of their values, you'll have equanimity, sustainable, fair exchange, and maximum utility. And that's where the maximum accomplishment and fulfillment comes.
Erick: Yeah, I can definitely see that. That's interesting. Um, because I have an example of that kind of happening for me right now.
Um, I'm moving into coaching and leadership training, uh, from a startup perspective in tech. And I had one of my listeners contact me on LinkedIn and she's like, Hey, I work for Google and I'd really like you to come and speak to us. And, you know, let's, let's get this going. And I was, you know, and she is going out of her way to help me.
Get into this and move into, you know, working with, with them, you know, at a degree that it's almost like I'm paying her, like she's an employee and that's her job, but she's doing it out of love because she's like, you, your podcast has given me so much. And I understand it's value to a degree that I can't even express.
You helped me through a big, through some really tumultuous times in my life. And you paid it forward to me, you have blessed me. And now it's my turn to do that. And I know how valuable you are. And I want to spread that value to other people. And it's, it's insane. I was just like, you know, to have somebody believe in me that much and want to support me that much and go out of her way that much.
Has just been, it's just been an amazing feeling. And a part of me is just like, this almost feels unreal is like, where's the camera, but it's just been wonderful.
John: You have heroes and villains and supporters and challengers. They always come in pairs like opposites. And I, if I see one, I get elated. If I see the other one, I get depressed.
If I see both simultaneously, I get present and I get authentic. So I don't allow the people that puff me up to buff me up. I don't allow the people that knock me down to knock me down. I learned to ask where's the opposite side. I find it. And then I'm centered. If you don't govern yourself from within, you get governed from without.
People that govern themselves within are the leaders. People that govern from without are the followers. So it's our, it's our own responsibility to look carefully at both sides simultaneously. As Wilhelm once said, the moment we do, we liberate ourselves from the distractions of other people's opinions.
Erick: Yeah. Interesting. I wonder where the opposite of this is coming, or if, or if maybe that I'm, I'm the person. Yeah.
John: Yeah. Look, no, no. Look outside at that exact moment. Look at who was withdrawn from you and thinking that it's, uh, you're not helping them, et cetera. You'll find that they're always paired. The moment you do it's in that exact synchronous moment.
That's what synchronistic boxes is. It's, that's the anti memory of the brain. It's there. If you study anti memories in Neuron Magazine, March 17th, 2016, there's a great article in Neuron Magazine and the derivatives of that on the anti memory, that the second you have a memory of something, your brain will create a real or virtual anti memory to keep the EI ratios, excitation inhibition ratios in the brain balanced and will create the other side and make you aware of the other side and people around you to make sure you stabilize yourself.
That's a homeostatic mechanism.
Erick: Interesting. Because I do think that there was a part of me which is like, like I said, almost disbelieving. Like, this is too good to be true. But that's a
John: Well, that's your, that's your intuition working. Because anytime somebody tries to puff you up above equilibrium, your intuition is going to point out the downsides by the moral licensing effect.
Moral licensing effect. The second you go into pride, it automatically makes you do things that are a shame to keep you back in equilibrium. And the moment you go into shame, it makes you do things that are proud, humbly to get you back in equilibrium. So you, that's a normal thing, but there's also on the outside of balancing act.
And when we see that we're untouched by the illusions of the outside world.
Erick: Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about kind of the opposite things on that, but I did find that what I appreciate about her. So we had dinner last night when she was in town and she, she was very pragmatic about it.
It was, she wasn't like puffing me up and like this big, Oh, you're, you're all these things. It's just like, what you've done has really, truly, and honestly helped me. It was, it was said very humbly. And so I, I, you know, I believed her. She's just like, you know, you know, she wasn't saying, Oh, you're the greatest thing since sliced bread.
She was just saying what you have given out in the world. was so valuable to me. I, and I have the ability and the resources and the connections to be able to pay that back. Plus, I think that what you can do can help lots of other people. So I'm getting something out of this because I like helping other people and you are a tool that I can use to help other people.
And you can shine lights on things that they don't understand and help them with their perspectives on the world. So I'm getting something from this too.
John: You can help her. Geez. There's no altruist. There's no narcissist. Those are labels. It's just human beings that are compensating for either pride or shame of the past, neutralizing it with these behaviors.
And so if she's getting some agenda out of it, something met by helping other people, she's helping you, but she's also helping herself or she wouldn't do it. No one moves a muscle without a motive consciously or unconsciously in a way where they win. Yeah. I've been to this warrant against. He said, don't be fooled by what people do when they do something they think is that you think is terrible.
They wouldn't do it to be terrible. They would do it because they think it's to their advantage or they think it's good in their view.
Erick: Yeah. And basically the idea that people only sin out of ignorance, if you will, you know, they only do something because they don't understand or we don't understand.
John: And even sin is a questionable thing.
If you study moral philosophy,
Erick: For sure. I'm using that colloquially.
John: That's an absolutist view instead of a relativist view because situational ethics can easily take every sin and turn it into something that's useful.
Erick: Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, that's very, very true. Um, and it's, it's hard to be absolute just on everything because you can always come up with edge cases.
And I, having worked in software for years, that was the killer was that you created a tool that could do all of these things, but then you had to deal with the edge cases. And sometimes there could be myriad edge cases where you're going, okay, well, yeah. Worked out all of these things and then suddenly something pops up and you're like, ah, one more.
Okay, I have to add that in. And coding for edge cases can sometimes take longer than coding for what takes care of 95 percent of your problem. That 5 percent can be almost equal to the 95%.
John: Exactly. They know that under consequentialism that, um, no matter what you do, nobody knows the total consequences of it.
So we don't know really what are consequences of any of our actions. So if we narrow our mind and say that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's only because we haven't taken the time to look at all the consequences.
Erick: Yeah, that's, that's, that's an interesting idea. I like that, that, that when we make a judgment about something, it's simply because we can't see the full context of all the consequences.
John: If we saw that we, as a, in a central limit theorem of probability statistics, you know that as you increase the sample size, you increase The probability of a mean, the mean in the bell curve, the mean distribution of positive and negatives. So if we look very carefully on a blog, we see somebody attacking us, let's say, or supporting us or something.
And then it'll go back and forth with support and challenge. And there'll be people counterbalancing each other in a dialectic. And eventually you realize that it's good and bad. I did a magazine, newspaper, article, should I stay or should I leave in South Africa one time? And there were, I think 9, 000 comments after the article.
And, uh, we, we measured them all out. And some said, I, if you come into our country, I'm going to personally kill you on, on one of them. Another one said, we want you to run for president on another one. And I took everyone that slanted positive and negative. We added them all up and they were balanced. So I don't pay attention to people's perspective because they always play in a balancing act.
You cannot make it to the highest levels of life unless you're the hero and the villain. And if you can't honor your hero and villain, don't expect to rise to the top. That's the way life is. If we look at all the great leaders, you know that they're heroes and villains and people's and different people's perspectives.
Erick: Yeah. That's interesting because for me, one of the things that I've, I've, I've steered away from any personal, strong, personal political opinions on my podcast, um, for a number of reasons. One, because I'm trying to reach a broad audience, but, um, when I have like during COVID, what's that?
John: I said, you're too wise to be caught in those trivias.
Erick: Yeah. I mean, so like during COVID, I, I, one of my episodes I talked about is, and I mentioned, if you are not You know, getting the vaccine or wearing your masks when you're outside at the height of the of the crisis, then you're being selfish. You're not taking into account how your behaviors can impact other people in a very profound way.
You could get your grandma killed if you're being stupid about this stuff. And I had a couple of people writing to me and the vaccines are all a scam. And, you know, like, how dare you bring politics into your podcast? And it was just, you know, It was, I found it very amusing because I'm like, this isn't a political thing.
This is a health thing. This is a responsibility thing. This is proven science that if you wear a mask, your chances of getting other people sick drop dramatically. It's just common sense. You know, because you're not spitting stuff out when you're talking. And it, it kind of surprised me because there were just two episodes where I mentioned certain things like that, and those were the only real negative comments I got, otherwise, like pretty much all of them been pretty positive.
But. There are times when I struggle with that because I see, I see what happens in politics and I see where there, there are certain people who definitely, I think are very dangerous and can cause a lot of damage to a lot of people because, you know, You know, because of their agendas and there's a part of me which wants to speak up and kind of point out about those things, but I'm not really in politics.
So it's like, is it, is it worth it to step up and do that? But I also want people to think about those things. I want them to not just follow blindly. I want them to challenge that. So am I better off just talking about philosophy, talking about how to manage your perceptions, how to work through those types of things so that you aren't fooled by people and that you can make choices that are for the greater good.
So that's kind of, that's a struggle I have at times of wading into anything controversial because, you know, then there's also the stoics admonition. You don't have to have an opinion about it.
John: Well, uh, if you look in my books, uh, you'll find out that I take out all imperatives, all absolutes. None of them are allowed to be published in the books that I do because you take a stance, you create an obvious stance.
You take a side, you create an opposite side. Um, that's the law of heuristic escalation that automatically occurs in sociology. Mm-Hmm. . And that's the unity of opposites. That's why the dtic is there. That's why proposition and anti propositions were designed. The thesis and antithesis were designed. So to expect to do one, take a side, you'll automatically get the reaction.
The more you take the side, the more the reaction. So I'm, I'm a side list guy on that. I, I just, I find that that's. not the wisest use of time because you just get bogged down in trivia of arguments. And there's a thing called the dialectic. And there's a thing called debate debate was to persuade people into right and wrong.
I'm right. You're wrong. And the dialectic was to both learn from each other to gain the wisdom of the synthesis, the synthesis, and the wisdom of the synthesis was the path of wisdom. Um, but we, we tend to go sideways instead of vertically. And the, uh, Into the synthesis and we take a side and the opposite side.
So I don't waste my time on that because it's, it's a pointless debate. See if people want to debate me, I said, I have no interest in debating. Cause then you want to be right. And I, I'm not interested in debating. I'm interested in dialectic and having a conversation and I can share things. You can share things.
We both grow from it. But I'm not interested in being right. Cause I don't want to be right. I don't want to be wrong. I just want to be me.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I think that that's very true. And I think that I, and maybe that's why I have steered away from that is because what I'm trying to impart is more universal principles rather than here's my agenda and I want you to be on my side.
You know, it's more of just like, Hey, I don't care what side you're on. If you can live these principles, then we can all start to meet in the middle and we don't have to be on one side or the other. And that's what I think. Okay. Yeah. No, thanks.
John: In society, you have the people at the polarity at the bottom, and you have people at the unity at the top.
It's a basic principle of society structure. It's a social structure. So you have fewer in number, greater in consciousness and greater in number and lesser in consciousness. That's how it is. Conscious is basically the degree of full awareness of both sides simultaneously. When you're unconscious, you're ignoring some part of it.
You have a subjective bias versus subjective truth. That was the whole journey of the subjective biases to the truth. And in survival, you have more subjective biases to capture prey and avoid predator. At the top, you don't see prey or predator. You know that the prey by itself makes you gluttonous and fat and not fit.
And you know that the, the, the predator makes you amazed and starved and not fit. But you know that you need the prey and the predator in perfect balance in order to have maximum fitness. So you're not avoiding or seeking either the prey or the predator. But the master is fewer in number, greater in consciousness.
Erick: Yeah, that's an interesting thing because I know that a lot of people, you know, think you should, you know, they're always like. You know, I'm the predator and, and, you know, they have that, that idea and they look down upon the prey rather than looking at the prey as somebody like, well, it's just a balance.
John: Okay. But all it is, is the attack of the disowned part within themselves. We only attack the parts we don't love in ourselves. We only want to fix or attack the parts we don't love in ourselves. And once we learn to love that part and appreciate that part and own that part, there's nothing to attack.
There's nothing to be right or wrong about. Yeah. In fact, the ideas of right and wrong is, and the moral extremes are part of the signs of the amygdala. The amygdala lives in that world. The executive center is more moderate. It has more of a relative construction and they know their situational ethics and they know there's a time for everything under the sun.
And so that's the nature of the universal laws.
Erick: Yeah. It's kind of like the bully beating up on the weak kid.
John: You need the bully. Without the bully, the little wuss doesn't grow up.
Erick: Yeah. But the bully is so scared of weakness. That's why he goes with some beats up on the weak kid rather than beating up on somebody his size to prove how tough he is.
John: That's why they're joined together in unity. That's why they're there.
Erick: Interesting. I never thought of that.
John: Yeah. The more you get supported, the more juvenilely dependent you become. The more you get challenged, the more precocious, the independent you become. Yeah. When you realize that maximum growth and development occurs at the border of support and challenge, you then efficiently grow on track.
Otherwise you grow too slow or too fast. Testosterone tends to accelerate the growth. Estrogen tends to slow down the growth. That's called a neotenian pedophilia and, and recapitulation and Gould's work. So if you end up having a perfect balance between support and challenge, that's why if you can see when somebody challenged you, who's the supporter, when somebody is supporting you, where's the challenge?
If you can see both and take the time to look for both, it's always there. You just overlooked it. And therefore you got emotional and the emotions are feedback to let you know you're not seeing the whole picture at once. When you see the whole picture, you're graced. And you feel love for life. You feel the four virtues.
Erick: Yeah. There was something that you said in one of your books that criticism from somebody is trust that you are capable of handling it. And I really liked that. I was just like, Oh yeah, if somebody is criticizing you about something, they're actually supporting you because they're, they believe you can handle this.
John: You're, you're an entrepreneur in the making. The more that, the more you go and study the entrepreneurs, they didn't come from an over supportive environment. They came from one that was challenging. That's why they became precociously independent.
Erick: Yeah.
John: The others are basically working for other people because they were protected and supported and they were looking for a daddy figure to take care of them or a mommy figure to take care of them.
Erick: Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, those are all interesting ideas. So one of the things you mentioned earlier, um, I didn't get to this part of the book, uh, you talk about your, the Demartini method. What do you mean by that? Can you kind of give us a breakdown of, of kind of your structure?
John: The Demartini method is a series of very concise questions that I've accumulated since age 18 on how to integrate, um, the two sides of our own nature.
To become conscious of what we're unconscious of so we can see the hidden order in the apparent chaos. So we can become poised, not poisoned by our misperceptions and be more objective, not subjective. It's a very scientific, reproducible, duplicatable system. I've taught 10, 000 facilitators around the world, how to use it.
And they're using it in all different walks of life. to help people take events in their life that they saw one side of and had an emotional reaction to, terrific or terrible, you know, torturous or ecstatic and calm them down out of the bipolar state into a stable state and allows them to use it and see life on the way, not in the way.
So it's something I've been developing and been teaching for many, many decades now. And, uh, I just keep working on it. As my research points out, it keeps expanding. It's got now, uh, there's about 80 questions in it now in total. That is very concise questions that'll, that are, every one of them are insightful to people, mind blowing to people when they ask them, like, like I asked, when you see something you see in them, what specific trade action, inaction do you perceive in them that you despise or admire?
Where, and when do you do it? That's one insightful question. When you. Reflect and realize pure reflective awareness liberates. And then you go and take the trait you think you admire, what's the downside, the trait you despise, what's the upside, and level the playing field until it is neither positive or negative.
And now all of a sudden you've transcended the moral trap that you were in or the hypocrisy you're in, that you projected onto them and disowned in yourself. And now you own it. Then you go to the where you've done it and find the benefits of when you've done it. To take away the shame or the drawbacks to when you've done it, to take away the pride.
Cause pride and shame is not your authentic self. They're minimizations or exaggerations of yourself. So then those are leveled. Then you go in there and then take and find out where that individual did exactly the opposite traits. You stop the label. They're always this way. They're never this way and take out the level of the always and nevers, which are absolutes, which is a finite thinking with the middle again, um, And realize that every human being's got all the traits.
When you finally realize that you can love people, then you go and look for at the exact moment when this is occurring, who's doing the opposite, which is mind blowing when you get to really master that skill. And then you realize that it's just a pair of options always paired together, but you biased it and saw one without the other.
And now you're fully awakened to see that they're simultaneous as one wants it. And then you go under and you ask, okay. When they did something you resented, if they had done the opposite in that moment, the fantasy of what you thought they should have done, which is why you resented them, what would be the drawback?
Because as long as you're addicted to a fantasy, you'll never appreciate your reality because you keep comparing your reality to a fantasy that doesn't exist. So those are just seven of the questions of 80 questions that are very precise. And then you're actually, there's one in there, as there's somebody criticizing you about what you did in the past, who's praising you about what you're about to do in the future and make you aware of temporal entanglement, a quantum phenomenon inside brain function.
So there's 80 questions. Each one of them are very in depth ways of helping you sort through the illusions of your conscious and unconscious splits that you store in the subconscious mind, the amygdala and hippocampus. And allow you to see things from an executive function where you're able to govern yourself and be self actualized.
And so that's the program, um, you know, the method is designed to help people self actualize their life. And it's very stoic. Some of the same principles that have been standing the test of time since Zeno are sitting there, because he was the unity of opposites.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I found for me, the more I've been able to internalize a lot of the stoic ideas and again, working on this book, uh, for me was, I guess I could say I had to get into the technical aspects and really digging into that and having to internalize these, working on my podcast internalizing this, you know, writing episodes and really digging into it so that I could make sure that I was explaining things properly and explaining things in a way that was useful to people.
whole life and my perspective on it, uh, on my life. And I've found that I'm much more relaxed and peaceful overall and I have a lot less anxiety. I worry less about things. I still struggle because I'm, uh, just organized as I want to be and that You know, I, I get easily distracted by, Ooh, shiny thing. I'm going to go read this or watch this amazing interview and, you know, read your book and things like that, that they get distracting.
So I don't get as much work done, but I think
John: you wouldn't do those distractions if they weren't somehow fulfilling some value you were still focusing on.
Erick: Yeah, for sure. So, uh, there's a podcast I really enjoy watching and it's called Diary of a CEO. And there was an episode he did with Jimmy Carr, the comedian from England.
And Jimmy is, he's a brutal comedian. Like, his stuff is crass and crude and it's just, it's really, really funny. But him as a person is so genuine, kind, humble. He's very philosophical. He understand, you know, he quoted some of the Stoics and other things like that. And I got so much from it. I kept, you know, I was doing some work around my apartment.
So I just moved in and I kept coming over to my notepad and writing things down and like, Oh, I got to look that up. Oh, that's a great idea because it just kept, you know, so many light bulbs just kept going off and there were just so many connections made. So for me, there's that. I think there's always been that level of learning, which is why one time, so the Mormons believe that if you go to the highest level of, of God, the celestial kingdom, that you'll be perfect.
You know, you've reached perfection and you'll live forever with God. And I was thinking about it one time, I think I was maybe 10 or 11. And the idea occurred to me that if I was perfect and I knew everything, that would be hell because I would be so bored. And I would be living forever. And so for me, I find that, that as much as I struggle
John: It's a dopamine shift.
Erick: What's that?
John: It's a dopamine shift.
Erick: Oh yeah, yeah.
John: You're looking for the mask. You know, it's, no matter what, as Socrates, Socrates said it really well. He said, you know, um, I know nothing. He understood that whatever you know is finite, whatever you don't know is infinite. So relative to the infinite, you have an infinitesimal knowledge.
So he realized how little he knew, which allowed him to live with holy curiosity, as Einstein said. I'd much rather live with holy curiosity than to think I'm done. So when I see somebody who's enlightened, I tell them time to reincarnate, dude. Start over. I'm joking with them. So I, I, I, I live with it. I, I, there's no end to want to learn.
There's no end to it. So you can't possibly be done. You can't. Oh yeah. The perfection, the many people think. The perfection is a one sided thing, which is unobtainable. The Buddha says the desire for that which is unobtainable, the desire to avoid that which is unavoidable is the source of human suffering.
So the striving for one sided perfection is futile. No one will ever get that. And that's a great opium seller.
But the realization of the perfection of the two sides is something inescapable. And so awaking our awareness is actually waking up to the inescapable magnificence that we are. And that's an ongoing growing process of our own magnificence.
Erick: Yeah, but you, you're definitely right about the dopamine hits and, uh, and continuous growth. I remember there was a quote by, uh, this cellist, uh, I, I'm totally blanking on his name, but he, I think he died like at 89 or something like that. And he was still practicing up until he died and people were like, Oh, you've had this glorious career.
Why are you, you know, why are you still doing that? You know, you, you don't need to do that anymore. And he was like, You know, he was still was practicing four and five hours a day, even though he was technically retired. And he said, well, through my practice, I think I'm still finally, I think I'm still beginning to learn something.
Yeah. And it was just like, yeah, he was the yo yo ma of his time. And yet he is at this age, he's like, because I think I'm starting to learn something. Not, you know, Oh, I'm, I'm finding one little thing here. I'm finishing this. He's like, I think I'm finally starting to learn something. And I was like, wow, that is an incredibly.
humble attitude of somebody who, again, is a master. He's been doing it his whole life, still practicing because he's still learning something about the cello. And, uh, I just,
John: there's no end to learning.
Erick: Yeah.
John: I do it every day. Try to learn something every day, every day. Read, write, read, research, and write, and teach.
Erick: Yeah, me too. It's something I can't seem to get away from, and I'm glad. Um, and I think that's interesting. I had a thought occur to me. I think that's why, after I was laid off from my last job, a little over a year ago,
John: Perfection of it.
Erick: Well, I was doing software development and I've been doing that for 25 years now.
Um, but I didn't have a real desire to go get another software job. I tried, you know, I'm like, Oh, I should go get another job. But the market was saturated with developers. They'd be like, go from Google and Facebook and other companies. And I, I applied to 70 positions. I got one interview and that was because the guy who referred me lived down the street from me, it was one of my neighbors.
And so they, I think out of, Politeness. They're like, okay, we'll interview this guy. But I haven't done any coding in the last almost a year and a half and I haven't missed it. But the thing that I do every day, not because I have to, but because I want to, is to study stoic philosophy, to learn and to grow and to think about these ideas and to write about these things and to create podcasts on these things, create programs about how to teach people these things.
You know, yeah, I'm just finding more and more. I love that. And working with my coaching clients and when I have some of those breakthroughs with them and I see the light bulbs go off on ideas that, that we come up with together, it just, yeah, it just lights me up. And so I think that. totally understand.
John: That's exactly what's the same thing for me for 52 years.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and I, and I wasn't sure if I was going to like that or not because I've always been, I've always been working on something as far as creating something, whether that's like writing a script or writing music or creating code or writing a book or something like that.
So it was like. Well, I mean, I guess this is creating stuff, but I wasn't sure if I was going to like the coaching part of it, even though I love people and I'm an extrovert, but for me watching those light bulbs go off is just, it, it just thrills me and just in a deeply profound and humble way. That I'm able to share all of this hard won knowledge on my side and see them see the world in a different way.
Change their perspective into something that can be so much more helpful. Um, last Friday night I went to a meetup and ran into this, this guy who was originally from Syria and has been here for a number of years. And he said, I know a little bit about stoicism, but I haven't found that thing yet that kind of hooks me in and pulls me into it.
So I was like, okay, well, ask me any questions you want. And so we started talking and we talked for about an hour and a half. And over and over he kept having those light bulb moments where he would just stop and say, Oh, Okay. Then he would rephrase it in a different way and bring it back and say, now, if I applied it to this, that's how I can see that changing that perspective for me.
And it was just, it was sheer delight. And I was just like, I wish I'd had a video camera to record that because it was so fun watching his face, making those realizations.
John: Any time we get the opportunity. Anytime we get the opportunity to help other people awaken to their own magnificence and clarify what they feel their calling is, their mission, their, their, their metier, their highest value, whatever you want to call it.
It's, it's more than rewarding. It's fulfilling. It's our nature to want to make a difference in other people's lives that helps us make a difference in ours.
Erick: Yeah, it's that service element. Um, so we've been on for quite a while, so we should probably wrap up here. And one of the things I like to ask my guests is if there was one thing, one absolute truth, idea, um, what have you, creed that you could impart with my listeners that you think would make the biggest impact on their life?
What would that be? And I know that's, that's a, that's a tall ask, but I think you might be up to the challenge.
John: Don't compare yourself to others and put people on pedestals or pits, put them in your heart and compare your actions to your own highest values and measure yourself relative to your own dream, your own calling.
And no matter what you've done or not done, you're worthy of love. Don't be inculcating the injected values of outer authorities who may not even have thought through their own thinking, who have projected onto you ideals that aren't real, that trap you in judging yourself instead of loving all parts of yourself.
Give yourself permission to shine, not shrink, to radiate, not gravitate, and to liberate, not embonded yourself to misperceptions.
Erick: That's a lot to unpack, but I, I'll leave that with my listeners and they can go back and rewind that and, and hopefully get something from that. But I really appreciate this conversation.
This has been very enlightening for me. I've had I'm sure you saw a few aha moments about things of, of perspective shifts on things that I hadn't, I hadn't looked at in a certain way. Um, and that's been that for me when I have those conversations with people, I, I love that just as I love having watching and helping others get their light bulb moments when I have those, it, it feels wonderful.
It's, it's definite dopamine hits and I, I love that.
John: Well, I'm the same way. So we're kindred spirits on a journey and getting to share what we both love to share on a daily basis. So. So thank you for the opportunity for being on your show and for asking these great questions and getting to explore what we got to explore.
And just thank you. You're helping me fulfill my mission. So thank you.
Erick: I'm glad to, I'm glad to go on the journey with you. This is, it's life is pretty amazing and I'm, and the older I get and the more I learn and the more I grow, the better my life gets and meeting people like you, meeting and sharing ideas like this are definitely a big part of that.
So thank you very much for your time.
John: Thank you. I appreciate this. The same thing. Thank you.
Erick: So thank you for joining us for today's Stoic Coffee Break podcast. Again, this is Dr. John Martini. And if you want, uh, if you could tell people where they can find more about you, if you have a website, if you're on social media, whatever it is.
John: My website. My, my website is simply DrDeMartini drdemartini.com. D-E-R-D-E-M-A-R-T-I-N i.com, drdemartini.com. If they just type in my name, Dr. John Demartini, it'll come up and, um, excellent. And if they've got anything out of our presentation and they want to go to that value determination process, it's free.
It's complimentary. Go and take it, go through the little exercise. It's, it is the eye opening ideas you'll get to, cause the magnificence of who you are is far greater than any fantasies you'll impose on yourself. And discovering what that is, is, is more than enlightening. It's life changing. It's trajectory changing.
Erick: Excellent. I will, I will make sure that I could do that myself. I was very interested in those 80 questions and seeing what, uh, seeing what results from that. So thank you very much. Hey friends. So that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. I hope that you enjoyed this interesting and wide ranging conversation with Dr.
John Demartini. Uh, I hope that his insights were helpful for you as you go on your spiritual and philosophical journey. And as always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening. Also, if you're not following me on social media, I would appreciate if you would do so. You can find me on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee and Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Facebook at StoicCoffee. Thanks again for listening.
Erick: Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic Philosophy and share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break.
So normally my episodes are just me talking about Stoic Philosophy, but I like to do interviews occasionally with people that I find interesting and I think that can add value to your lives. And this week I have my friend Sam Bennett on here. Sam Bennett is an author of multiple books, mostly dealing with productivity and dealing with creative blocks.
And I will let Sam introduce herself and talk about her background, where she comes from and what she's doing. And Yes, I think it's going to be a far ranging, interesting conversation. We'll probably hit up on some productivity things, passing creative blocks, and who knows what after that?
Sam: Hi, Erick.
Erick: Hey.
Sam: Hi, everybody. Thanks for being here.
Erick: So tell us a bit about yourself and so that my audience gets to know you a little bit better.
Sam: Yeah. Um, hi, audience. Let's see. I grew up in Chicago. I was a theater kid. I was one of those kids who put on shows in the living room, in the backyard, and I went to theater camp, and I, I was that weirdo.
Um, and uh, eventually I got a job at the Second City Theater, uh, and I worked there for almost ten years, which meant that I'm still friends with some of the great comedy minds of all time. Um, but you know, at the time we were just, you know, Kids doing shows together. We're just all in our twenties, working for, I don't know, 75 bucks a show, and there's a picture from my first wedding, and it's me, you know, in the big white dress, and then there's Stephen Colbert, and Steve Carell, and Amy Gomez, and Jim Belushi, and you know, all the people, um, and, uh, It was great.
It was fun. It was hard. Um, it was an incredible education. And, uh, And I had one of those acting careers, you know, in Chicago and then later in Los Angeles that went well enough that you didn't want to give up on it. I mean, I worked. I was paid to be on television which is more than a lot of people can say.
But it never paid me enough to for me to make a living at it. So along the way, I just got really interested in this question of how do highly creative people make decisions? so much. How do people with a lot of talents and skills figure out what to do? Once they've figured out what to do, how do they figure out how to market it and sell it in a way that feels Cool and ethical and, and right to them, you know, um, when you could sort of, you know, what should I do?
Should I have a podcast like Erick? Should I host a regatta? Should I stand on the street corner with a sandwich board? Like, what do I do? And I was always pretty good about getting things done. That was never really a problem for me. And one of the quirks of my mind is that I face a question like that and I think, well, how would I figure that out?
How would I figure it out? If I, if I was anybody other than myself, how would I figure out what to do? So I started coming up with a lot of worksheets and exercises and little imagination games and I started teaching a class called Get It Done, um, in a church basement in Van Nuys, California, you know, to like 11 people.
Again, the same 75 bucks, like, I don't know, you know. Um, pardon me. But it was really fun and, uh, and eventually I wrote the book, Get It Done, From Procrastination to Creative Genius in 15 Minutes a Day, which, hair toss, hair toss, got endorsed by Seth Godin, which I'm totally not over. Totally not over. Um, and yeah, and it just kind of grew into this whole line of, of work, of helping people get unstuck and get their work out of their heads, out of the house, out into the world.
Erick: Nice. And so with that experience, what do you find are the most common things that people do that keeps them from doing that? And what are the most common or I guess the most practical ways of getting past that? So I know that's something I've struggled with a lot because I, I have so many interests of so many things I want to do.
And I even took time off from this podcast because I was like, Oh, I want to focus on music because podcasts are taking a lot of time and then fell back into the podcast because I've. I found I needed it, I joke around and call it my public therapy. And then, you know, I took another break and I was going to do Unreal Engine and found out that I just, you know, used this very expensive computer that I bought to play video games and wasn't doing anything with Unreal.
So again, came back to the podcast because I was, you know, working through some of these things. So with that said, sorry to me to kind of jump in and spill my story, but, um, yeah, Yeah, what are the most common things that keep people from doing that and how they can move past some of those things?
Sam: Yeah, well I think your story is actually not only interesting but illustrative because a lot of, often the advice I give is follow the sparkly breadcrumbs.
You know, we don't really know where this is going, there isn't a right answer. There's just your answer, and the things that I see get people stopped, particularly smart people and sensitive people, is overthinking. Right? So they get trapped inside their own heads. Perfectionism, I hear the word overwhelm a lot, I hear the word procrastination a lot, I hear the word Um, uh, uh, procrastination, overwhelmed, busy, I just let myself get so busy.
And what I, yeah, so my first thought is always like, well, just try it, like try it, see where it goes. And as you say, like, oh, I still love music, but I find the day to day, it doesn't give me the same, you know, reward that doing this podcast does. So great. I can move music a little bit further down the list of important things to do.
Um, or I can be something I make sure that I do just for me and My heart, I don't need to share it with the world. Um, and just cause it's occurring to me, this is an important distinction that I think doesn't get made often enough is the difference between hobby and art.
Erick: Yes.
Sam: Um, hobby is a little word. It's a word that sounds very small and dismissive. Oh, it's just a hobby, but I think hobbies are crucial. I think they're critical. I think they're part of our soul's development. I think they're part of the things that bring us joy and satisfaction on this earth and, uh, anything that you love to do, but you would never want to have to do, and you don't ever really want to monetize it.
That's that it is important that those stay a hobby. When I was. Back at the age when all my friends were having kids, I used to make cashmere sock monkeys for everyone, for all the children, for the babies. They were adorable! And everybody's like, oh my god, you make cashmere sock monkeys! You should totally sell these!
This would make a great business! But I'm like, nope. These cashmere sock monkeys are a gift of love from my heart to this baby, and I never want it to be anything more than that.
On the other hand, there's another word that I'm calling art, which is a very big word and probably too big of a word because it sounds sort of intimidating. But what I mean is, whatever the thing is, And it may or may not be an artistic thing, but it's the thing you have a gift for that you know you must share with the world.
You know it's something. It's bigger than you. It's, it's, it drives, it has a drive to it. It has an energy to be shared. And it hurts me when people either put the pressure of public opinion on their hobby, which should just be for them and the people who love them, Or take something that is truly their heart's mission and say, Oh, it's just a hobby.
Oh, that, that doesn't matter. So I think that's an important distinction of like, keep trying things. Cause we don't know, we don't always know ahead of time, you know, um, what's going to be which, and then, and then really pay attention to the feedback you get, like follow the sparkly breadcrumbs and really notice how you feel as you do it.
Erick: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That definitely makes sense for me because the times that I took off from working on the podcast and tried other things. Um, I've found that there were just moments where I would, I would learn this life lesson because you know, I've been studying stoicism for, for a while and it was just like, Oh, this is so good.
And I would sit down and, and write an episode and just be like, you know, I can't sit on this. This is something I need to share. And if, if this is something I'm struggling with, I'm pretty sure that somebody else is struggling with it out there. And my podcast was my way to work through a lot of that shit.
I would say probably about 80 percent of my podcasts are strictly personal things that I was dealing with. And I was like, okay, how do I do this? And sitting down and writing an episode was my way of processing that and working through those things, whereas some others, you know, I would see an interesting, uh, Video or podcast episode or read an interesting article or book.
And I would talk about that because there was some really good lesson that I thought somebody should share. But yeah, I think that, and so in a way my podcast has been a hobby, but it's kind of evolved into something more because it's something I found I was good at and because the response was really, you know, pretty tremendous about it and it has been.
Uh, where some of the music I put out, um, you know, hasn't really gone anywhere. But I haven't put out nearly as much music as I have podcast episodes, so it's
Sam: So it's a little unfair to judge one by the other. Exactly. You know, I once wrote an entire training around, um, Shawshank, around the movie Shawshank, and the principles of stoicism as they appear in Shawshank Redemption.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I think Shawshank is a very stoic movie. Yeah. It's that acceptance of what is and changing what you can. Right. And you just have to, you know, You just have to deal with things and yeah, so one of my favorite scenes in there is, you know, I think for a lot of people, it's that one where he locks the office door and he plays that, that opera and, you know, and the whole prison is just like, you know, and um, then they throw him in the, in the, in the hole meaning solitary confinement for two weeks and he comes back out and they're like, man, that must've been tough, you know, two weeks in the hole.
And he's just like. It was easy. Why? It's like, because they can't, they can't get in here. Right. They can't, they can't control this. They might put me in that cell, but they, they can't control this. Right. And I think, uh, Morgan Freeman character goes, I knew what he was talking about and that was hope. But it was that whole thing of like, you can throw me in the hole, doesn't matter.
You can imprison my body, but you can't imprison my soul.
Sam: Exactly. Exactly. And, um, and that's something, you know, again, you're asking what I see a lot of, I'm sure you do too, is, uh, a lot of people spending a lot of time fighting. Reading and complaining about all the stuff that is outside of their sphere of influence, all the stuff that is outside of their immediate control, and not spending nearly enough time, if any time at all, on the stuff that actually is within their sphere of control.
You know, it always feels like, oh, it's them, it's them, it's the government, it's the economy, it's that boss, it's that person, it's that woman at the end of the table, it's my sister in law, it's them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them. If they weren't here, if they weren't behaving the way they were, if these circumstances were different, then I would be fine.
And that is a lie. That is a terrible, insidious lie.
Erick: Yeah, I think that it's that whole thing of, uh, what Steve Martin said, be so good they can't ignore you. You know, don't complain that your audience doesn't like what you're getting out there. Make something your audience likes. Or be okay with the fact that you wrote something and not that many people are that interested in it.
You can't control what your audience likes.
Sam: And how many fans do you really need, right? I mean, there's the famous article, a thousand true fans. I mean, how successful do you need this to be? Uh, and, you know, I certainly working, you know, having been a performer my whole life and, and, and working with them.
But I see it with entrepreneurs too. It's like, well, but, you know, Like, I can't get ahead until I, you know, until I get an agent or a manager, but I can't get an agent or manager until I get ahead. I can't, you know, how do I stop being a nobody and start being a somebody? It's like, stop trying to, stop trying to win them over.
They're not your parents. Like, winning them over didn't work with your parents and it's not going to work with agents and managers either.
Erick: Very true.
Sam: Right? Same thing with job seekers. Like, well, how do I get the hiring people to notice me? Go off on to do your own thing loud enough and big enough and brilliant enough that they come to you because everybody wants to be a part of something that's already working
Erick: and it's really
Sam: Annoying
Erick: and
Sam: Simple facts. So..
Erick: yeah, I mean, I found for me, for example, even though I haven't made much money off this podcast, the business connections I'm making is I'm switching over into leadership coaching and training, um, because of the podcast. And so one of the contacts I'm working with. Which I'm pretty sure will come through.
I asked the gal, you know, she's incredibly helpful. Wants me to come speak at her company, doing all of these things. And I was like, and I asked her, I said, so why are you doing this for me? Because you were doing a lot. Like this is what I would pay any, uh, An agent or a marketer or you know, somebody in PR to do, for me to try and set all this up to go speak at your company and get paid for it and to announce my coaching program and do all of these things.
And she's like, well, there's two reasons. One, this is what my job is, is I help employees within my company. And so two, well actually three things. So two, your tool to help me do that. What you have helps these people. So you are a tool, you, this is. Number three is, you have given, you've paid it forward so far.
You know, we've got over 300 episodes. You've been paying it out into the world. And now it's time for that stuff to come back. Your consistency, your, your dedication to continually doing this has helped me through some of the darkest times. And we, we, we had dinner the other night, and she was explaining, you know, some things in her life, and there was some crazy shit.
It was just like, what? Yeah. She was like, yeah. And the way that I got through was because when I was feeling stressed out, I would listen to your podcast, it would help me calm my brain a bit, and I was able to actually function where like, emotionally, I was a wreck, and just You know, it's just like, I just want to quit this whole thing and, you know, get out of this country, but I got kids and I can't do that.
And, uh, you know, like I'm freaking out and, you know, listen to your podcast, go, oh, okay. That's why I'm freaking out. Thanks. And I'm just like, wow, that's, that's amazing to hear. So,
Sam: So amazing. And there's so many important things in what you're saying. One is for all of you who are. sitting on something that you know you want to do, that you know would make a difference to yourself, to the world, to whomever.
But, you know, it's not quite perfect, you're not quite sure what it's going to be, you're not quite sure what the methodology is, maybe it should be this, maybe it should be that. Knock it off. Quit getting ready to get ready, and just start getting it out into the world. And you know, my latest book is called The 15 Minute Method, and I'm like, spend 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you.
P. S. That's the entire 15 Minute Method. That's the whole idea. Ta da! How I turned that into 45, 000 words, I'll have, I'll never know.
But so what I want to say is, you know, well, it's not perfect. It's not perfect. I don't want to get it out there, but it's not perfect. Do you love the things you love because you're perfect because they're perfect. You love the people you love because they're perfect the movies you love the music you love because it's perfect music.
No, you love it because it means something to you, right? So your work is sitting there tapping you on the shoulder this idea, whatever that idea is for you out there. It's tapping on the shoulder and it has been for some time. It probably has to do with your zone of creative genius. Yeah. And it probably has something to do with, like, why you're here or where you're going.
So quit getting in your own way. You don't know who, what person you're going to touch, whom you will be changing, what, what will change for you. And the key I think is to, when I say zone of creative genius, the things we love about our zone of creative genius is because we love the action of doing it, even when there's no result.
Or no tangible result, we love the person we become as we are doing it. So it's not just that you did 300 episodes. It's the person you became as you did 300 episodes. That also puts you in a position where you are now hirable by this person. You weren't hirable by her 300 episodes ago. She may have liked what you were up to.
She may have thought you were interesting, but she wasn't going to, you know, I'm going to put you in front of her boss and everybody in the entire department. But now you walk the path to here.
Erick: Exactly. And the funny thing for me was that, you know, I tell the story often is that I started the podcast, not because I wanted to make a podcast about stoic philosophy. I started the podcast because I wanted to practice making a podcast. And because stoicism was what I was studying at that time, I was like, okay, I'll, I'll make a practice podcast, so I understand how it works about stoic philosophy.
That's just what I think about every day is I'm writing in the stoic journal that I bought and, um, it was just something to talk about and do this practice. And. If you listen to my first 50 episodes, some of them are really crappy. I mean, they are not good. I did them on my iPhone with my earbuds in and just recorded it.
Sometimes while I was just going on a walk, I'd just be like, Okay, that's what I'm going to talk about today. And then sometime they had this whole thing where you could put music behind it. And so I tried that, you know, and people complained about that. And I'm like, yeah, it is harder to hear my voice.
When I have this music playing, so I'll cut that out, um, try different themes. The theme song that I've been using for the last probably four years was one that I wrote, actually. It's a piece of music that I wrote, uh, and I love it. To me, it's just one of the, the coolest things that I've ever written. And I, so it was like, oh, I can just take this little snippet of it and, and, uh, and play that.
And I love that. And so for me, that was something that was really, uh, It became a, a, a way for me to kind of test these things out because I wasn't afraid to, to try it because it was like, okay, well, it's just a practice podcast anyway. And then suddenly when I had, you know, 10,000 downloads, I was like, Oh, people are actually listening to what I have to say.
And they were emailing me and stuff like that. So it was, it took on a life of its own, which was really fascinating for me.
Sam: I think, uh, if you sort of plucked a little string that I want to circle back to, which is, I think sometimes. the thing that stops people from taking action on the stuff that they really want to do is a fair bit of fear and anxiety, which is, of course you're afraid.
Who wouldn't be? My goodness. It's terrible. Putting out, putting, putting work out into the world is terrible. Putting yourself out into the world is incredibly, it's just, it's just nail biting. Um, and I think sometimes people look at. You or me or something like that. Well, it must have been easier for Erick, you know, because he has all these skills.
He has this voice, he has this music, he has this, he could do this. It must have been easier for Sam. She'd already written two books, so this third, you know, maybe a third book isn't that big of a deal. It must have been easier for so and so. It must have been easier because they're so beautiful, because they come from a wealthy family, because they don't seem to have any problems.
I don't know. But I'm here to tell you, it's hard for everybody. And we're afraid too. We may not be afraid of exactly the same things you are afraid of, but we are definitely afraid. And the mountain is just as steep for everyone to climb. So stop making that excuse for yourself of like, well, you know, at some point it's going to be easier.
I'm going to have more confidence. No, confidence is the thing you get after.
Erick: Yeah, absolutely
Sam: I really wish there was some way I could like, you know, beam this information and people said like, well, I'm not sure if I can do it. Right, of course, how could you be sure if you could do it if you have not yet done it, you know, but if you're standing on the top of the high dive thinking, well, I wish I had the confidence to jump off like, no, you have to jump.
And then afterwards you come up out of the water going, I did it. I am going to do it again because now I have confidence. Right. And we all have this it's. It's just as miserable as we think it's going to be, that moment at the top of the high dive, that moment before you hit send, that moment before you say hi to that person, the moment before you start writing that book, but if you take it in baby steps, that can help, if you do it with a group, that can help, a little positive peer pressure, people going, yay, jump off the high dive, yay, um, And, again, if you do it in that zone of creative genius, if you do it in that, and first of all, hat tip to Kay and Katie Hendrix and their amazing work on zones of creative, on zones of genius.
Um, but if you are doing it in the sphere of things that you love to do anyway, right? We all have these things that, like, we just love that, like, it's so mysterious, like, maybe nobody else in your family is into it, no, but none of your friends are into it. But you've always been a little fascinated, you always, you're watching all the documentaries about it.
You know, people are like, wait, you're driving to where and paying how much to go to an exhibition of what? And you're like, Hey, I don't know. I can't wait. And they're like, Okay, okay, friend, have fun. Like that is your zone of creative genius. It's the thing that and you probably don't notice it because it's come so naturally to you that it just sort of seems like seems sort of obvious or like, well, everybody is good at this or everybody would be interested in this.
No, no, they're not. Um, and so to take those, I also think of it as like the thing that if somebody came to you at three in the morning and woke you up and was like, Hey, hey, hey, we're going to go, we're gonna go do this thing. You want to, you want to come and do the thing? And you'd be like, Oh yeah. Where's my shoes?
Okay. Let's go. I'm up. Like, what is that thing? And whatever that thing is, do more of that thing. Even for just 15 minutes a day.
Erick: Yeah. I think that the interesting thing for me is that I felt When I, there was a, there was a point in my podcast where I got popular enough that I began to feel an even stronger sense of imposter syndrome.
Like at the beginning, I knew I was, I was kind of an idiot and I was just like, Hey, this is what I learned about stoic philosophy today. And so, yeah. And so it was like, okay, but then once I reached a certain level of popularity, you know, I had, you know, a hundred thousand, 200, 000 downloads or something like that.
And I was like, Oh, man. Wow. I have a real audience and I was like, Oh, and sometimes the, there was a lot of anxiety with episodes, which is why I began writing them down rather than just off the cuff because I wanted to get things right. And I, part of that was the perfectionism that I, I wanted to have with it.
It's like, Oh, well, if people are depending on me, I want to make sure it's good. But second was also that I found in writing those episodes that I dug into it a lot deeper. And so I could rather than just going, okay, here's, here's the, here's what, understanding what you can control, what you can't control by digging, by writing an essay about that, basically.
I found I could find, find the deeper nuggets in that. And I could also have twists in there. Sometimes I would, you know, I'd be like, there was one I wrote. It was called the, the Unpursuit of Happiness. And it was like, stop trying to chase being happy. Happiness is a by product of being satisfied with what you do and who you are.
Happiness, happiness is a result. It's not a destination. You don't, you don't. You know, go today, I'm going to be happy. You can decide that you want to be in a better mood and take some steps to do that. But you can't just say, you know, happy, I'm going to do this thing and I will be happy. You do that thing and you might be happy because there's plenty of times when you get that thing that you wanted and you thought you were going to be so happy when you got that and you're not.
And you're like, wait, I worked so hard for this thing. But that's, you know, in Stoicism, we realize that's where we so focus so much on the outcome. Like, oh, I'm going to put this episode out. It's going to get. 50,000 downloads and that it only gets, you know, 15 on the first week, but over time it finally hits 50,000, but that's okay.
But it's like that. I never put out my episodes and think, yeah, this is going to be one that's going to, I'm going to hit a million on this or anything like that. I just put it out and then like months later, go back and look at the statistics and go, Oh, that's interesting. And. Yeah, so I find that, like you said, you just have to get out there and, and do it.
And even when you get successful, you still have that imposter syndrome, which I did for a long time. Now, not so much, but that's because. I think some of it was my own insecurities about things, and I really, using Stoicism worked really hard through that.
Sam: Yeah. So,
Erick: go ahead.
Sam: Well, just, uh, uh, uh, uh, again, a number of sort of threads I want to pull on.
One is, it takes a great deal of stamina to remain patient with yourself. While you develop the skill sets up to your own taste level, right? Ira Glass is a wonderful little film about this. Absolutely. Um, you know, we, we have something we have a passion for, and we immediately realized that we're terrible at it.
Erick: Yeah, our taste is good.
Sam: Our taste is good. But our creativity is terrible.
Erick: Exactly.
Sam: And, and it does, it, it's really hard to, you know, that's, you know, when I talk about working in the salt mines of comedy, you know, you spent a long time around the best people in the world, figuring it out and figuring it out and failing and failing and failing and going to class and going to rehearsal and going to class and going to rehearsal.
And doing a show and having it not go well, and doing a show and having it not go well, and having it not go okay. And then, you know, we, this is how, this is how we, we learn and grow is through, through experience and, and staying patient with yourself and staying connected to your own, Um, and really honoring that drive that you feel, you know, honoring that, that thing inside you, that's like, I don't know, I just really want to, I know I'm terrible at it, but I really feel like it.
And since this is a podcast, partly about leadership. Yeah. One of the things I strongly recommend for leaders of any stripe is to make sure you are in a position at least once a week at which you are an abject beginner. I want you in, like, not just beginner's mind, but like, intimidated mind. Like, everyone in this room is miles better than me, mind.
I used to, um, lift weights and, and, and do CrossFit and stuff, and I loved it! Partly because it was really hard. And because I was not that good at it. There were a few things, the lifting heavy things part, I was pretty good at, but the rest of it, I was terrible, but I loved being so terrible. I loved it that every time I did it, I was working at the very limit of my ability.
I loved it that it was hard. I loved it that other people around me were killing it. And I was like, what, how do you even, you amaze me. And, you know, being so enchanted by the skills of others. And I just think it's so important for leaders. To, like I said, to put yourself in a position where you are at the back of the line, pal.
And to remember that this is how some of your employees feel. This is how some of your clients and customers feel. And to take all that discomfort and that, that psychological distress. And I tell a story in 15 Minute Method about being at a terrible workout and I'm like, you know, one of those, you're red spaced and stuff. Spitting and crying, you know, just awful.
And, uh, and finally the trainer came up to me and she goes, does it hurt, or is it just hard?
And I was like, Oh, Yeah. It's just hard. And she goes, good marks away. And I know that's such an important question because yeah, it's something hurts if your job is hurting you. If your marriage is hurting you, if your friendship is hurting you, if you're whatever group you're involved in is hurting you, that's a sign that something's wrong, you need to hit the pause button and take a look at what is causing you pain.
But if it's just hard, welcome to it, sister.
Erick: Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the. Well, you were saying kind of to nail that, it's that idea of if you're the smartest person in the room, you need to change rooms.
Sam: Find a better room.
Erick: Exactly. Only play tennis with
Sam: Better tennis players.
Erick: Exactly. Yeah. I remember, um, I know I've talked a lot about myself on this, mostly because, because I do a creative pursuit and it's, it's what's what I work on every week, almost every day.
Um, but I remember when I first started wrestling, my best friend Bobby had been wrestling for four years. And he was one of the best wrestlers in the state. He was, he was absolutely amazing. And I was in the beginner's class for a while, but then I had something that conflicted with that. And so I would go to the advanced class after, you know, this was after school.
And since he was in that, you know, I'd wrestle with him because he was my best friend. And he would kick my ass all over the place. He was, it was amazing. And so for like every two or three points, I would make he'd make 15, bam. He was so good. And then, uh, something happened and I had to switch it up. And I went to the beginner's class a couple of weeks later.
And some of these other wrestlers who had been beating me when I first started, I was just creaming them. They're like, how did you get so good? And I'm like, I'm not that good. I'm just look at Bobby. They're like, no, no, but you, and I was like, Oh, it's because I had to work so hard just to get two or three points.
Sam: Right.
Erick: Where, when I was wrestling the other kids who were about my skill level, it was, it was fairly even. And so it was, it was pretty easy or I was generally a little bit better. And now I eclipsed them because I've been getting my ass whooped so hard by Bobby for weeks on end.
Sam: Because you increased the resistance. And I think for some of you people out there, I was just talking to a client the other day who I think was having this problem, she was having this sort of like, meh, you know, everything was kind of meh. And I'm like, well, what, what would be exciting for you? What would delight you? What would entrance you?
What would, meh, meh, meh. I was like, all right, let's just hundred X what we're talking about here. Because clearly, this is all just boring the ass off you, and there's no reason to spend, you know, you're the, the only, the only real tender of your life, which is time, on something that's not gonna thrill, thrill you, like, truly thrill you.
Um, the other thing I will say about this, and this has occurred to me earlier when we were talking, so, since it's, I have a little rule in my head that if I think it three times, I have to say it. So, I thought this three times, so now I'm gonna say it. Um, I, like so many people, have lived with depression and anxiety my whole life.
I had it when I was a child, and there wasn't such a thing as childhood depression when I was a kid. Um, weird. Just weird. I was a weird kid. And sad. And the same often seems sad. Yes, I was sad. Um, and one of the ways, uh, and I have what they call atypical depression, which is, I don't know why they call it atypical, because it's very typical.
It's very common. Um, but it is not the like, oh, I'm crying and I can't get out of bed kind of depression. I'm really high functioning. Like I can go out in the world and do things and have everybody think I'm fine. It's more that sort of inside a glass box. Like, everybody thinks I'm great and I can't really feel it. Um, and one of the ways it shows up is in a, uh, a thing called anhedonia, which is the inability to take pleasure in things,
Erick: Right?
Sam: We know the word hedonism, which is taking too much pleasure in things. Anhedonia is no pleasure in things. And so what that means is often I'm having the experience of being here going like, Oh my gosh, I'm getting here to sit and talk with my friend, Erick.
This is so fun. I can perceive that this. is fun. I don't really have the sensation of fun, but I understand that it is fun. Now, I realize this must sound incredibly grim, and it's not. But I want to give a little relief. Sometimes when I say this, people are like, oh my god, I thought I was just like incredibly cynical.
Like, no, no, you're not. I mean, you might be cynical, but you might also just have a lower reaction to that kind of thing. So we start to look again, what are more interesting words, right? What's more interesting than overwhelmed, busy, perfectionist? What's more interesting than fun or happy? Like, oh, I can feel satisfied.
I can feel warm. I can feel safe. I can feel turned on sometimes depending on what's going on, you know, like, what are the other words? That signals some kind of reward to you.
Erick: So you think that, so basically rather than looking for an overall joy, overall happiness, it's more of a fine toothed, or more of a laser pointed, you know, uh, delineation of, of what it is you're doing and finding satisfaction with that.
Sam: Absolutely. And very in the moment, like, wow, this butter toast is like, so good reading this book in the sunshine is so delicious. You know, having this cat curled up on me, purring is so Lovely. So, so flattering, you know? Like, I think we sometimes think that the big things are going to throw big switches, but it's really, life is made up of little things.
You know, of little, little, little moments. It's the only thing I talk about in the book. Actually, I talk about a thing called micro blessings, which is mostly my antidote to gratitude lists. I'm in favor of gratitude. I'm in favor of an attitude of gratitude. I'm in favor of gratitude journals. I love all of it.
And I find that those lists sometimes get. Kind of generic pretty quick. I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful. Of course you are, of course you are, but are you feeling that, you know, does that really move you? Does that wake you up in the morning? Does that get you spending 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you? You know, whereas I can go, Oh, the warmth of the tea coming through the mug to this hand. I have an old injury on this hand, so it feels especially good.
Erick: So would you say that it's kind of like a mindfulness and being present?
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Being present and being even a little inquisitive. Like, what is it about this that I'm enjoying so much? Why do I have to stop and look every time I see the moon? Why do I, you know, what is it about the sound of the waves or the, you know, watching the kitten videos or whatever it is that you love to do, like to not just go like, oh, I like this, but like, what, what is it about it? That is enriching and fulfilling to me.
And, and can I find more of that?
Erick: And so you've, with this exercise, you found that it was a way to kind of counteract that, that natural kind of sadness or depression by finding that gratitude, finding those, those moments of mindfulness and saying, okay, well, I don't feel this overall great. You know, happiness at, at this certain level, I can, I can grab my own bits of happiness and appreciate them by being, by focusing on these small things.
Sam: Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's just noticing your life as it's happening and noticing the pleasures of life as they are happening. Uh, and I think that's all we have. I mean, when we look back on our lives and, you know, we think, oh, you know, what were the greatest moments of your life so far? I mean, some of them might have been more typical, top of the world moments, but most of them for me are very small moments, are very intimate, fleeting moments.
Erick: Yeah, I was, uh, I like to follow Arthur Brooks. I think that some of what he teaches is pretty interesting. He's a professor of, of happiness, I guess you would call it. And he studies happiness at Harvard. I writes for the Atlantic. Um, I've seen different interviews with him, like Tim Ferriss, diary of a CEO.
And over the years, as they've researched this, they find that your level of satisfaction in life, your level of happiness in life, that at least 50 percent is just genetics. There's just going to be a natural component and, um, for me, I find that mine is probably about average, maybe a little less so. But I know that much of that comes from my background and my, you know, the childhood I grew up with.
And there's a lot of unconscious stuff that, I'm sure I'm still working through as, as I go on this path of stoicism, but like, I have a friend here in Amsterdam who was originally from Russia and he grew up very poor. They actually had to have a farm in the back of their yard if they wanted to make sure they had enough food.
I mean, that's how poor they were. His mom worked in a factory. His dad left when he was young and he said, and that was a good thing. I'm glad my dad wasn't there. Um, but he's like, but you know, I always felt loved, even though my mom was very kind of, she was cold in a way, but she was very matter of fact and very practical about life and she wasn't super warm, but I knew that she loved me.
So that was fine. And, but he just genuinely is just one of these naturally happy people. Like he just has this. It's like he almost has a smile on his face all the time just kind of naturally like his natural facial expression You know, they have resting bitch face. He's like kind of the opposite of that like Yeah, he's just like and and I just really enjoy being around him because of that It's like I kind of suck up that energy of like Yay.
Sam: Absolutely. I partner with, um, with a dear friend of mine, Amy Ehlers, who's also happens to be one of the world's great women's leadership coaches. And we do these international retreats for women. We've went to Belize two years in a row. We went to Crete. We're going to Mallorca this year. It's incredible.
And part of the reason I love working with her is not just because she's great at what she does, but because she is a natural born celebrator. She is a natural born enthusiast. She is, you know, I tease her that she's a, you know, she's a thousand watt bulb in a hundred watt world. You know, she just, she can't help it.
And if there's music on, she's dancing. And if there's a compliment to give, she's giving it. And if there's something to appreciate, she's appreciating it. And it really helps. First of all, just improve the quality of the retreats, because she's the one who puts on, remembers to put music on during the breaks.
She's the one who remembers, you know, that we need a little dancing on the tables time, in addition to all the work. Um, but also because it just keeps me so much more grounded and present in the joy that is available to me.
Erick: Yeah, and that's interesting. I, I, I find that, uh, since I'm working for myself and I do so much stuff, You know, here, my, my apartment and all of these things that I have to make sure that I go out at least a couple of times a week and just hang out with people. Because as soon as I do that, I feel my whole mood just lift because I, because I am that extrovert and my, I think
Sam: We're tribal animals. I mean, we're designed to be this way. We're designed to live in a group. I think it's, you know, most mammals, as big as we are, live in small family units with lots and lots of space in between.
Right. Yep. Not us.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: We're like, let's live in apartment buildings. Let's live in a city. Let's live all together. Let's get even closer together. Let's cram together on the train. Let's be right next to each other. And you know, it's, it's, it's part of our software. I mean, it's how, how we were designed to be this way when people are like, Oh, I'm such a people pleaser. I'm like, yeah, on purpose. Because the good opinion of other people is how you stay alive.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: We cannot survive alone. Our animal brain knows it. Our practical brain knows it. We need other people. Everything comes to us through other people. God comes to us through other people. Money comes to us through other people.
Love and success comes to us through other people. Everything comes through other people. So and our connections to other people is, is everything. It's everything. The quality of relationships is the quality of your life. End of story. So to make sure that. You are around people who get you, who celebrate you, who laugh at your jokes, who tell you you look cute even when you know you don't. Like, that is a high quality life.
Erick: Yeah, and that's something that I'm building and I have to remind myself to not get too focused on what I, you know, my career goals, because that's that takes up so much time and energy. And some of that is that fear of running out of my savings, you know, like, oh, I have to get this going.
And then I remind myself, I'm like, I can do this for a few years. I don't want to dip that far into it, but you'll be okay. And I just have to. For you, you can do this and go out and hang out with people and and do those kind of things.
Sam: And I mean, again, you know, people say, Oh, Sam, does a 15 minute a day thing really work?
And I'm like, yes, or I wouldn't have written a book about it. Not trying to trick you. Yes, the 15 minute a day thing works. And partly because it it continues to focus your attention on the things that you love and that light you up. but also because it gives you something to talk about with other people.
Erick: Yeah. Uh,
Sam: and then when you're talking about somebody else, it's amazing how often they go, Oh, well, my sister's a literary agent. Did you want me to, or, Oh, my brother raises Burmese mountain dogs. Did you want me to, you know, or whatever, like he said, the more you're in it, the more you're doing it. And then, and this is, this is my plan for world domination. Are you ready?
Erick: Yes.
Sam: Here it is. Um, so I've never had a job in corporate America. I've been a whitewater river guide, I've delivered flowers, I was a bartender and a barista, I've done everything, uh, children's party clown, all of it, mime, but okay, um.
Erick: I did that at a, I did that as well, children's party, did a mime.
Sam: Dude! High five!
Erick: Yeah, I went to, I went to state three times in pantomime in high school. And took a superior each time.
Sam: Well done, you!
Erick: Yes, me too. Imagine me doing the whole, yeah. Right,
Sam: Inside a glass box, right?
Erick: Oh yeah, I was really good at that. Sorry to interrupt. No! We had one routine that I did that I, my first year, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to do humorous interpretation where basically it's, you know, you're almost doing like a standup comedy thing, or you do a scene, it's a solo scene.
And I was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. And my drama teacher, Leslie, she was like, no, you're not like, I'm not that's it's what I did last year. And I'm really good at this. And, you know, I just moved up to the school. And she was like, no, you're going to do pantomime. And I'm like, I've never done pantomime.
I'm she's like, you are a natural you. And I was like, are you sure? And so a former student came and he taught me this 1. it was called psycho bathroom and it was just, it was 1 of the most brilliant mime pieces I've ever seen. And I tell people, I'm like, you know, it basically, when I saw Mr Bean. You know, years later, I'm like, that's basically what psycho bathroom was kind of like, like if Mr.
Bean had a bathroom, they started attacking him. There you go. Yeah. Which is why I love Mr. Bean. I could watch that. You know, just, just absolutely brilliant. You know, that's one of the most watched shows in the world. Rowan Atkinson makes, he made more off Mr. Bean than he has off of anything else he's done in his career.
And that was right at the beginning. And he had all the rights because it was just this cheap little show that he and somebodies put together. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: Right? Yes. Build a bonfire. Do your thing. Anyway.
Erick: A little bit of a tangent there, but.
Sam: Well, a little bit of a tangent, but I will also, this is another little thing I like to put in people's, you know, soup, so they think about it.
To all you parents out there, if you have a child who is threatening a career in the performing arts or who is demonstrating an interest in the arts, um, don't panic. It's going to be fine. First of all, the chance that they will actually try and do it professionally is very slim. Um, and everything they learn as they are studying art, and I think particularly the performing arts, just because that's my background, is going to serve them so incredibly well in the Starting with the ability to stand up in front of a room and talk.
Erick: Yes. That's how to do that.
Sam: Right. Which is something so many people can't do an understanding of body language and understanding of timing and understanding of energetic exchange and understanding of, of, of, of emotions and the, and the, the, the subtleties of human emotions, um, language and history and costume and attitude.
And, you know, in the theater, we call it ensemble. I think in corporate, they call it teamwork, you know, uh, yeah. I have a friend who ended up with a big job at Apple and he always said, Oh, I can always tell when somebody's got performance experience, when they come in to interview for a job. He's like, and he thinks it should be mandatory. Like, like two years in the Peace Corps, like you have to spend two years in the performing arts. Not necessarily on stage. You can be in, you know, you can be part of, but I totally agree.
Erick: Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, for example, obviously having been on stage and doing all of that makes it so it's much easier for me to speak on my podcast. You know, that's something that I definitely learned from that. But also because I started out, I was a musical theater kid. And that's what I loved. And so I took voice lessons, which is why my voice sounds the way that it does. Right. And, and you know, yes, there's a lot of it is my natural, natural instrument itself, but I learned how to use my voice to make it sound the way that I wanted to in my everyday speaking and everything.
So my voice sounds the way that it does. And with my podcast, the two most highest compliments that I get, or most compliments I get most often are thank you for your content that has changed my life. Also, I love your voice. I can listen to you read the phone book. It's so soothing. And so just like, it just, you know, and some people like it's very calming.
It's very, you know, so when I'm stressed out, I can listen to one of your episodes and because you're not this hyperactive podcast host who's, you know, you're in there and there it's just nice and chill and I can just relax and go, ah, and you're teaching me something that's really helpful. I'm like, yay.
Yay. I'm glad my tools are helpful. I hear the
Sam: Exact same thing. I've got the, I've done the audio for all three of my books and I have a couple of limited edition podcasts that I've done. And I hear a lot of like, oh, your voice is so warm. It's like, it's like having margaritas with a friend. It's like, I feel it. I'm like, yeah. And again, yes, that's on purpose and, uh, because I'm acting, it's not fake. I'm not faking it, but I can do it because I am an actor. Right.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: Um, so this world domination. So like I said, I've never had a job in corporate America. Um, and I worry because I read the statistic over and over again, that says that 77 percent of employees are disengaged.
And that statistic has stayed pretty steady the last bunch of years. And it terrifies me, because that's a lot of disengagement. I mean, can you imagine if 75 percent of your friends were disengaged?
Erick: Yeah,
Sam: 77 percent of your money disappeared. I mean, that's a lot. So it seems to me that that's a very expensive problem, right?
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: You're paying three quarters of the people to be there and not do anything or not really give a shit about what they're doing. That strikes me as a big problem, but I think I have an almost free and very practical solution.
Erick: Oh, do tell. I need this for my, my teaching.
Sam: Yes. So, um, I want to back up. I want everyone everywhere spending 15 minutes a day, every single day on something that matters to them.
That's the point of my book. That's the thing I say over and over again. Uh, 15 minutes a day, every single day, Before you check your email. On some and whether that's writing, or stretching, or playing ukulele, or tying flies, or raising lizards, or just sitting in the garden with the sun on your face. I don't care.
What I notice is that we're spending all day getting everything done for everybody else. And the things that we know, like we were talking about, would really light us up inside, the things that are part of our zone of genius, the things that, that delight us, give us those little micro moments of pleasure, aren't even making it onto the list.
So that's my overall goal. But especially when it comes to corporate, I think it would be really neat if corporate said, you know what, everybody, between 4.15 and 4.30, that's your 15 minutes. Between 9 45 and 10. That's your 15 minutes. Don't schedule meetings. Don't check your email. Don't make your dentist appointment.
This isn't about your to do list. This is 15 minutes just for you as a person, as a human being to noodle around whatever you want to noodle around with. I think that people would appreciate that of like, oh wait, the people who run this organization have noticed that I am a person? That's cool. So I think that alone would be cool.
I think that, in fact, I have studies that back this up, that if you start a meeting and ask people not just to introduce themselves with their role, but to mention something else about themselves, about who they are as a person, you will have a better meeting. They will be more attentive, they will have better ideas, they will be faster problem solvers, they will be more innovative problem solvers.
Um, and then, you know, a little bit further down the conference table or in the zoom room is, you know, that person over there whom I've never really gotten along with, but they say, Oh, I'm Sam from sales and marketing, and I spent my 50 minutes today, you know, doing Neil point for a baby gift for the baby who's about to graduate high school, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get it done this week, right?
Um, and then, you know, a little bit further down the conference table or in the zoom room is, you know, that person over there whom I've never really gotten along with, but they say, Oh, Hi, I'm so and so from such and such. And, uh, you know, my grandmother was Swedish. And so I'm working on a, on a recipe of hers to see if I can make it a little bit lighter.
Cause frankly, it's kind of a heavy recipe. And I go, wait a minute, my grandmother was Swedish. And now, now, now she's a person to me, you know, or that person's doing cross stitch. Oh my gosh, we're needlework buddies or that person goes water skiing or that person loves gardening or that, like this is now we know each other.
And you know what that is? Engagement.
Erick: Connection.
Sam: People, we are engaged, we are connected, we care about each other, we care about some of the same things, we have some shared values, we can laugh at each other's jokes. And people will do way more for other people than they will do for any kind of paycheck. I don't care who you are.
Erick: True. And by the way, my grandma is Swedish, so.
Sam: See? All the best people are, frankly. I can still hear her voice. Hello, sweetheart.
Erick: Oh, that's great. No, I think that's, that's incredibly true. I, one of my coaching clients, um, he's a software development manager in Victoria, BC, and he was able to take a maternity leave and he's going back this next week and he was a little bit nervous because, you know, he worked really hard to make sure that he could just offload everything to his whole team.
Because his, his boss was like, you are on leave and that's what it means, you are on leave. And he was like, okay. And so as he was, you know, we were, we were discussing and he's like, so I've, I've been able to free up a lot of my time to do a lot of the things that I wanted to do. But I, because I had my fingers in so many pies because it's a small company.
Now they're kind of running without me. So this is an interesting time. I said, let's capitalize on that.
Sam: That's right.
Erick: One of the things that he talked about was he wanted to implement a 15 percent rule, which was 15 percent of your time can go to whatever you want.
Sam: Whatever you want.
Erick: And he was like, but, you know, I'm worried because we kind of tried doing that a few years ago, but you know, we're small and it was, so we'd just get wrapped up in finishing code.
And so we never got around to it. And I said, I said, you have to do that. And he was like, I have to. And I said, yeah, one, it tells your employees it's okay to play. Yeah. It's an investment in your employees, telling them that you trust them. They they're going to do something that it may not be productive for the company now, but you know, they could, they could be playing with some new technology and suddenly go, you know, a couple of months down the line and go, Oh, by the way, I was checking this thing out.
And I think that will solve our problem over here. And you're like, all right, let's do this, which happened to me at a company that I worked for and I later became CTO of. I had seen this demonstration of this thing called Ruby on Rails. It was a new programming environment that came out and he goes, we're going to build a blog in 10 minutes.
And nobody had ever done anything like that before. And he does this demonstration, just does it right there in this front of this crowd and everybody was like, and I looked at how they did their stuff where they got the database into the, into the, you know, pulled out and so the code could work with it.
And it was called an ORM, which is an object relational model, but it's not that important. And so I went into work the next day and I did a little bit of checking with some things. And I told my boss about this, showed him the video and I said, I think I can make that for our code. And I said, can I have a few days just to do that?
And he was just like, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because we were spending, we would, for every time we need to make a database call, we would make a whole bunch of code just for that one call. So I said, let's make it so that we can just have this generic code. We call it and then it just knows because the names of the columns are the exact same as the names that are being expected over here.
So it just fills it and hands it off and he was like, yeah, let's do that. And man, it's, we have this 10,000 line set of code and we dropped down to 300 lines and it stayed at 300 lines for the next few years because once it was written, it was done. And I was like, thank you for letting me play. Thank you for letting me take the time to do this.
Sam: And we know that we have, you know, how many great ideas do you have when you're Out on your boat, doing yoga, taking a walk, playing with the dog, like, you know, your mind needs a little air and space to, to put things together, you know, to, there's nothing that will shut down creativity faster than say, be creative, just play with it, just have fun, just, just think of anything,
Erick: Creativity, on demand,
Sam: Just go, just think of something amazing right now, like, there's nothing, there's few things that will make even, Hyper creative people shut down faster than that.
So yes, to give people a little air and space to around around in their mind in their lives. And also, you know, there's this beautiful spillovers tech, you know, people are like, really, this 15 minutes a day really make a difference. It's shocking how much you can get done in 15 minutes. And it's shocking how much you can get done in 15 minutes every day for.
A week, a month, a year, six years, sixty years. Um, I offer a thing called the Daily Practicum. It's a subscription thing. People buy it. And, uh, every day, every weekday at twelve noon, eastern time, Uh, we, everybody comes on, we say hello, I set the timer for fifteen minutes. It goes off. 15 minutes later, people lift their heads up.
And I swear, Erick, they have this, like, post orgasmic glow. They're like, I did it! I did the thing! You know? I, I sorted through this much of my closet! You know? I I, I reached out to that, I called that person and I've been putting off calling for six weeks and it was easy and they were really glad to hear from me.
You know, I, I wrote a note to my friend who just lost her mom and I didn't know what to say, but I did it, you know, and like these little things, not just feel good in the moment to do them, not just have a, a, a, a, what do you call that when a little bits of things add up to something bigger than themselves, exponential, uh, results. Um, but then there's this sort of spillover, like, and I don't know what to call it. It's like positive smugness or something. Like it's, you know, it's like when you work out in the morning or when you just first have a crush on somebody and you're just sort of walking around all day like, that's right.
I'm amazing. How are you? And that, you know, we love that version of you, right? People are like, oh, I couldn't take time for myself. That would be selfish. No. What is selfish is you walking around exhausted and stressed out and with no sense of humor, and the rest of us have to deal with you like that. That is selfish.
You show up creatively fulfilled or stimulated. You show up having crossed, you know, moved forward on something that matters to you. You show up engaged with yourself. That's all. You're less reactive. You're a better listener. We love this version of you. Please. That is the ultimate generosity is for you to show up as that person and at work for your children, for your families, for your communities, for your faith community, whoever it is, all of these people will be so grateful if you take the 15 minutes to keep your flame lit.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I can agree with that. The taking care of yourself and so that you can be firing on cylinders is probably the best gift that you can give. I know for me, for example, I had, um, I think it was about a year and a half ago. I had a spell for about three months where I had this terrible insomnia.
Just because there was a lot of stress going on. And I was, if I slept five hours, that was a long night. And it was like, or it's, you know, like I said, almost three months, finally I got some, some sleep meds that knocked me out and I was sleeping like eight, nine hours for like months afterwards. And I was like, and I, it's, I recognize that that lack of sleep, which is definitely detrimental to my last long term relationship. Even though we had broken up by that point, we're still in this weird in between phase. We're still living in the same house. But I was a grumpy bastard because I was so tired. And I would try not to, but man, when you're that tired, you just feel on edge all the time.
You've, you know, just everything feels prickly. Noises are too much. You just don't have the capability to be even close to your best. So…
Sam: I think that,
Erick: yeah, I can agree with that. Again, one
Sam: of the wonderful things about the 15 minutes, because I myself, as you know, have had long haul COVID for the last two and a half years.
Erick: Yeah, tell me more about that.
Sam: Yeah, so there's lots of days where, you know, not only can I not get out of bed, but rolling over in bed seems ambitious. And, uh, the whole, the, one of the reasons the book is called the 15 minute method is because that book was, a lot of that book was written in 15 minute increments.
Yeah. Because I just couldn't do more than that. And I think it's easy to make the mistake of like, Oh, well, I'm having this health crisis, or my beloved is having a health crisis, or I'm having this financial crisis, or this, you know, like, I can't take time. I can't do this now, Sam. I have to be, you know, I have to be, take care of these other things.
And I want to turn that on its head. I'm gonna say, no, no, no. This is where it's even more important for you to spend 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you. And again, even if it's just doodling or sitting out in the garden, whatever it is. Because you can't, you can't take an already stressful situation and then remove your life force from it and expect to go, expect for it to go better.
Erick: Yeah. Well, it, it, basically it was kind of like, I think it was, I want to say it was in Viktor Frankl's book, I could be misremembering it, but he talked about the people who took time in the concentration camps who practiced gratitude, to enjoy a sunset, to hug somebody, to do something like that. They had a much better chance of survival and were more mentally healthy because they took time to appreciate something beautiful in this absolutely horrible place.
Sam: Right. I worry too. I worry about, um, cell phone usage, not in the same way that I think that other people do.
Erick: Mm hmm.
Sam: I worry about it because I notice it depriving us of these little moments of contact and communication with each other.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: The conversations I have in line at the grocery store, the conversations I have with the, where I live, we've got full service gasoline stations. We don't have, we didn't have those where I lived before.
So I'm like, really, you're just going to fill up the tank for me. That's amazing. Thank you. But even those little conversations, you know, the little exchanges that, you know, we used to meet people sitting on an airplane. We used to meet people in the dentist waiting area of the dentist office. We used to meet people chopping, you know, and now we kind of don't.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I see that when I ride the metro into town. Um, everybody's on their phone.
Sam: Everybody's got their head down on their phone.
Erick: But I've met people randomly. I, and I do, I, I'm one of those people who talk to people, my neighbor on the airplane and I've made friends that way. Um, but, and, but I generally tend to, when I can, talk to somebody next to me or make a joke or something like that and get to know them.
And, uh, but I've kind of, I've noticed that I've kind of fallen into that habit of not nearly as much. I'm not usually on my phone. Sometimes I am because I was in the middle of reading an interesting article and I'm like, Oh, I got to get out of here and go. And so I will read it then, but I usually like to just put my AirPods in and listen to music and watch the scenery as it goes by and appreciate that and do people watching.
It's always a lot of, but I do find that I'm, I'm become, I've kind of adopted the, the culture around me of everybody's on their phone and not paying attention to anybody else.
Sam: Of course, because again, you know, human emotion is contagious. It's just, we're going to do what we see everybody else doing. We can't help it. I mean, when the pandemic hit and everybody was, you know, buying pallets of toilet paper and everybody's like, why is everybody doing that? Well, they're doing it because everybody's doing it.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: It's almost impossible for us not to do what everybody else is doing. And so, yeah, and, and sometimes people are like, well, I don't know what I would do. Great. So take 15 minutes and stare at a blank piece of paper. 15 minutes of enforced boredom never hurt a person.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: And when was the last time you sat for 15 minutes without reaching for your phone? I'm going to guess it's been a minute.
Erick: I'd have to think about that, but I do, I do try at times to make myself bored and, um, and. Allow myself to be that, which is one of the reasons why I like it's like biking around here because I can't be reading something. I have to be right. So
Sam: Have to be present, have to be awake
Erick: I put air pods in and then I just ride around and some listening to music and my brain is thinking and, and that's part of the reason why I enjoy cycling so much.
Like, I actually, you know, I have a racing bike back in the States, which I'm going to get shipped over here. Um, and I used to hit 40, 50 miles on, on a ride easy after my divorce back in 2005. That was my that was my escape. That was my recovery. It was just out riding and because the only thing I could focus on was riding.
And so my mind would wander, and it was processing all kinds of stuff, and it was just. I couldn't help it. It just had to wander because I was out there riding. And then sometimes I would focus in on very clearly where I was and other times my brain would be wandering out there, but just being and doing something repetitive and where the, the only things I could do was either focus on riding or look around me and that was it. So…
Sam: I think it's one of the reasons why we all have such great ideas in the shower is because it's one of the only times when our hands are busy. You know, so we're sort of, as you say, your hands and feet are busy, you're kind of, you know, doing something by rote, you know, without having to think about it, and your brain is a little quiet. I think also the water is nice, you know, the sound of the water.
Erick: And it's comfortable and warm, yeah.
Sam: Comfortable and warm, I love it. Or cold, I also love a cold shower. Um, I love all water in any circumstance, really. If there's a body of water, I'm getting in it. Um, and even a shower feels great. And then, you know, so we have, you know, so we're doing the shower thing and all of a sudden your brain's like, Oh, by the way, here's the answer to the question you've been asking.
Oh, by the way, here's what to get your sister for Christmas. Oh, by the way, here's the, how to solve that problem in your writing issue. You're like, wow, this is so great. Right. Cause you finally shut up long enough for your brand to be like, Oh, knock, knock, knock. Here you go. You know, your brain is this amazing problem solving machine. You put in a nickel, you got out a gumball almost every time. But you gotta quiet down for a sec. You know, you've got to give it a little bit of, of space. Um,
Erick: Yeah, I think it was Nietzsche said there isn't a problem that can't be solved by a walk.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Or Isaac Denison who says the cure for everything is saltwater, sweat, tears, or the sea.
She was Danish, which almost counts as Swedish. But, uh, yeah. And in terms of, of, of stoicism, the 15 minute thing, um, You know, it really does help you get less precious with your own self with your own work with whatever it is that you're spending your 15 minutes on like, it's 15 minutes, how perfect is it going to be? And you're going to do it again tomorrow.
So, you know, um, and I often have people ask me about writing and you know, how do you, you know, how do you deal with the feeling when you feel like your writing is not very good? I'm like, Oh, well, that's just a permanent condition. I mean, you just always feel like your writing's not that good. Yes. Please don't wait for that to go away.
Like you have a long wait if that's what you're waiting for. Um, but what I do do is I will look at a piece and go. And the voice in my head is going, This is terrible. No one cares about this. Who do you think you are? I'm like, Right, right, right. Thank you. Luckily, I've been at this long enough to not believe everything I think.
So I'm like, Okay, great. Thank you, voice. Uh, trying to keep me safe. Appreciate you. But then the other voice says, Do I know how to make this better right now?
Do I know how to make this paragraph better, this page better, right now? And again, and then I wait for a second, and don't rush to judgment on it. Just do I, do I know how to make this better right now? Because sometimes the answer is, yes, I do. I can take out these extra words, I can find all the sentences that start with, it is, or that was, you know, I can remove all the adverbs and adjectives.
I can, you know, I can definitely take out all the exclamation points, especially in emails. No, no, if your sentence is not strong enough without an exclamation point, then your sentence is not strong enough. Take it away. Right? So I think I can make it funnier. I can make it punchy or I can do whatever it is I can do.
Other times I'm looking at it and I go, you know what? I don't know how to make this better right now. I'm sure it needs to be made better, but I don't know how to do it right now. Therefore I will move on. Right. And that patience, I think it's one of the, um, most important things that I've taken from stoicism is that Yeah, that patience, that willing to be a willingness to be a good parent to myself.
You know, to say like, yes, of course you are striving for excellence. And of course you want this to be as good as it can be. And we're going to give ourselves a little grace. We're going to make sure that we have a snack. We're not going to try and do this on an empty stomach or when we're already upset, you know, like let's, let's, And let's involve other people. This is why God made editors, right? So,
Erick: so do you think that kind of going back to our phone conversation? Do you think that social media and I, most people on their phones because they're on social media. There's some people reading books and stuff like that, which I've seen, but that has caused us to be less patient.
Sam: I don't know. Um, social media caused us to be less patient. It certainly caused us to be less patient with the possibility of boredom. You know? I mean, we do have that, like, oh, I'm waiting for the bus for three seconds. I'll reach for my phone!
Erick: Um, but I think, I think for me, sometimes as I've been working on, you know, switching over to coaching and, and moving that direction that when an advertisement or something that comes up, or somebody who's talking about I'm a coach and I do this and I do that, and I may, you know, 50 K per month and all of these things, there's that part of me, which is like, I'm not making that much and so I, I, I, I feel like I must be doing something wrong because I'm not there yet and I've been working at this for the last four or five months trying to get, get that. So I wonder if…
Sam: I can't wait for you to listen back to this episode in like 10 or 15 years being like, I've been at it four or five months and I felt like I wasn't doing enough. Cause really. You barely started and you're doing incredibly well. Um, I think most of us don't know how well we're doing while we're doing it, right?
Uh, yeah, I mean, so again, in terms of who we are as human beings, as human animals, we're slightly negatively programmed, right? It is more important for us to remember the one berry that made us sick than it is to remember the 99 delicious berries. This is why when you do something and 99 people tell you, it's amazing.
And one person says one thing that's a little bit critical and that's all you hear. That's not a character defect. That's not low self esteem that survival, right? We need to hear that criticism more than we need to hear the things that are generally approved of. Um, so marketing and advertising got ahold of this really early on in the development of communities. And culture to say, well, clearly there's something wrong with you, therefore you must buy the shampoo or drive this car or subscribe to this thing or dress this way or do this thing so that you will be less offensive to the rest of the world.
And we all go, okay, because I don't want to offend the rest of the world. I want to be, I want to be good. I want to be accepted. I don't want to smell or have yellow teeth or, you know, be all the things that they're telling me I'm about to be. Um, and so I don't know if it's made us less patient, but it's certainly, uh, uh, amplified spotlight syndrome.
You know, this, this, this psychological phenomena where we believe that other people are really paying attention to us and, and how we are. And if we mess up, oh boy, they're really taking note of that. And I'm here to tell you, no, most people are not noticing you at all.
Erick: Yeah, they're too busy in their own heads to worry about you.
Sam: Way too busy in their own heads, and if you do screw up, they're probably not noticing. And, if they do notice, and they take time to tell you, that's the best possible news. I'm always so flattered when people write me and say, like, Sam, you misspelled this, or I don't think this was right, or I really took exception to what you said here, and I'm like, Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to write and for giving a shit. That's amazing. And you can 100 percent disagree with me and I'm so grateful.
Erick: Well, they also, what that means, what that tells me is that they see you as somebody who can take criticism, that you have the capacity to be able to hear something negative and be like, okay.
Sam: Absolutely. Uh, yeah. And most often I, I agree. I'm like, yes, I agree. That really should have been better. Yes. I would have, yes, I noticed that too. Um,
Erick: There's nothing worse than somebody who coddles you because they don't think that you're strong enough to be able to take criticism.
Sam: Right? That would be really embarrassing.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: Yeah. I think I would hate that a lot more than I hate, and I hate being criticized. I'm very sensitive to criticism. I'm a fool for verbal praise. I love compliments. I don't like criticism, but I definitely would prefer criticism to indifference or to, yeah, to coddling, to like, That's your flattery, your heart kind of thing.
Erick: I remember the first time I heard that when Brené Brown explained, bless your heart, I laughed my ass off. I was like, yes, thank you. That's now that makes sense. Oh, bless your heart. I was like, Oh, it feels wrong with that. And then she explained it. I was like, Oh, that's what's wrong with the code. It's a code.
Yeah, that passive aggressiveness. Um, so, we've talked about quite a few things on here. Is there anything that you feel like we should hit that we might have missed so far?
Sam: The whole reason I do my work is because we're going to die. Everyone has work that only they can do. Songs that only they can sing. Words that only they can put together. Relationships that only they can have. And we do not know how long we have to do this work. I'm always, um, fascinated and horrified by those stories of like, plane crashes on person's house, you know?
Like they are in bed, asleep, and a plane crashes on their house. And they are now dead and gone, having fallen asleep thinking, Oh god, I gotta remember to get eggs tomorrow. And then there is no tomorrow. Like, in Chicago every year someone is killed by a falling icicle. Like, these things These things stay with me.
I think about these things a lot. Um, and so I just really want to encourage everyone that stop waiting for a good time. Stop waiting for a good idea. There's no such thing as a good idea. There's just ideas. We don't know if they're good until later. Right? Yeah. Do that thing that lights you up. We've all seen that study over and over again of the hospice patients who say, I wish I had spent less of my life doing things that I thought would make other people happy and spent more of my life doing things that made me happy.
that had satisfaction or meaning to me. So that to me is one of my other favorite parts of stoicism is that it makes a very big deal about like, Oh, you are so totally dying. And you should think about that a lot.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: And does this matter in the scheme of, you know, and when you're, you know, you're haunting your own memorial service, what do you want people saying?
Well, he really followed every rule. Well, she was incredibly well behaved. Is tile grout? Nuh. Impeccable. No! That's not what you want them to say. You want them to say, That person got every drop of juice out of that orange. That person tried. That person enjoyed every sandwich. The immortal words of Roran Zivan, Enjoy every sandwich.
Erick: Yeah, no, that's very true. And I know a lot of people when they, you know, contact me, well, you know, they find out about stoicism. That's my podcast or like, but isn't this, I mean, this whole thing about remember death. I mean, that's so depressing and it's like, no, it's, it reminds me of this cartoon that I, I found, um, and I sent it to my kids cause I thought it was brilliant and it was two frames and they, they look like almost the exact same thing, except in one, the expression is really sad.
And it says, nobody gives a shit. And they're just really upset about that. Then underneath it, it's like, wait, nobody gives a shit. And memento mori or it's the same way. It's like, man, we're going to die. Hey, we're going to die. So, so what I do, isn't that important because I could die right now. So nothing I do is that important. I'm going to die. So nothing I do is all that important.
Sam: So I might as well do what's in front of me. I might as well do something delightful. I might as well do something. Something. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I didn't get the memo that death is supposed to be depressing. First of all, it's 100 percent inevitable.
So how, how could it, how could it be anything other than just what it is? Um, also everyone who's been says it's great, right? Isn't that every story? People are like, I was dead for 20 minutes and it was amazing. Like, awesome. Yeah. The other story I sometimes tell is like, I'm like, well, remember what it was like before you were born?
I think it's probably a lot like that.
Erick: Yeah. I think it was Chryssiphus who actually basically said that. It's like, you didn't know anything before you were dead, before you were alive. So why would you be worried about after you're not? It's the same thing.
Sam: Um, you know, there's the Bill Moyers interview with Joseph Campbell, which is just, again, an epic piece of television to this day. And Bill Moyers asks, Campbell, something about, I don't know, something about heaven or what he believes heaven is or something. And I should look this up because I've been thinking about this quote, but he says something like, I think we will all just be too, what does he say, like mesmerized by the face of God to even care, you know?
And I just love that idea of, of all of us and our little squabbles and our little hurts and our little peccadilloes and our big peccadilloes. And, uh, and then eventually we all just get to the same place and go, Oh, this is,
Erick: Yeah, I still don't know how I feel about death as far as I, I've definitely lost my fear of it that I used to have, um, hit 40 and I remember looking in the mirror one time and going, Oh, geez, I'm getting old. And it was just like, For months afterwards, I kind of had this like anxiety of like, I'm going to die. And I haven't thought about this. Ooh, crap. And I'm not, I don't believe in God anymore. So, Oh crap. You know, and I still don't know what's afterwards.
I mean, the universe is a very strange place. The more I go in, I love watching physics videos and, you know, and astrophysics and stuff like that. And it's just quantum physics, all of these kinds of things. And it just talking about a four dimensional, eight dimensional structures and all this crazy stuff. And I'm like. The universe is a weird place, so I'm pretty sure there's something after we die.
I just don't know what it is.
Sam: Well, and to clarify, I realized I did use the word God earlier, and you have to know I don't perceive God as a moral force. I don't. I mean, there's sort of the character of God that I make jokes about. My life I used to discuss my life. Um, but, uh, it's one of, I think that's one of the reasons why I think spending time in nature is so profoundly restorative is because of the deep indifference of nature.
Like nature does not care. Doesn't care if you live, doesn't care if you die, doesn't care if you appreciate her, doesn't, doesn't care if you get buried in a landslide or eaten by a mountain lion, does not care. Don't turn your back on the ocean. The ocean will eat you for lunch. I love that. I find that so relaxing.
When my first book came out, and I was freaking out. Book launch is a freaky, freaky time. Uh, my family came. I was living in California. So what do you do when the family comes and you live in California? Whale watching. So we go out whale watching, and uh, beautiful day on the water, like I said I love water, I love being on the water, that alone was good.
And then sure enough, there were whales! And the minute that first whale broke the surface I was like, oh right. I am a speck on a speck on a speck on a speck. This planet is almost 80 percent water, it's not really our planet, it's theirs! And they don't even know we exist. We're like those weird things up on the dry part.
Um, and it was so relaxing and restful to me. And all of a sudden, all my worries about all the things that I should have done to prep for the launch that should have been done yesterday, that should have been done three weeks ago, that should have been done three years ago. What were people going to say? Was it going to sell well? What if everybody liked it as much as Seth Godin liked it? Holy shit! Right? My ego was freaking out and then I saw the whale and I was like, Oh, right. It's fine. No one, no one cares.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: Very common.
Erick: Yeah, I can imagine. I got to see the whales at the Cape Cod one time when I was young. Yeah, that's, it's, it's an amazing experience because, you know, you're like, Here are these what I think they're like 80 ton creatures or whatever they are flying out of the water and you're just like, wow, I feel tiny.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're so big. And again, so calm. And so speaking of Isaac Dennison, she has a great bit in a short story she wrote. It might be called the Pearl Diver. I can't remember. Uh, but part of the story is this Pearl Diver who can speak to the, to the fish. Um, and the fish say, Oh, we, we, the marine life are God's chosen people. The flood was for us. Why? Because fish can't fall. Marine life is always in perfect harmony with its environment.
See, you read stuff like that and you're like, okay, now I have to quit writing because that is just too good.
Erick: Yeah,
Sam: I'll never be able to write something that, go ahead, .
Erick: I know there are times when I'll, when I'll, you know, I have, I have ideas for like sci-fi books all the time. And then, you know, but then I'll, I'll see something or a show or, or read some kind of book and it's so brilliantly done and I'm just like, I couldn't ever get my mind to come up with something that good. And I feel, I feel intimidated by it, but then I'm just like, that's okay. I'm glad that somebody wrote that. Because I get to experience that and that's
Sam: right and find your genre, you know, I remember spending about 15 minutes a day. I spent a couple months one time trying to write a screenplay. It was actually a television for a TV movie and I was working for some producers who that's what they did.
And I thought, well, this I could do this. Okay, turns out. No, I can't. Like it is not. I have no gift for plot. Character, yes. Dialogue, absolutely. Plot, no. So I was like, I'm sitting there at my computer like, So they meet in the elevator where they, In a meadow, there's a, no, uh, Dressed up like a clown, they, no.
Like, I just couldn't get it. And finally, after a couple months of that, I was like, Okay, you know what? Good experiment. Not my bag. Now I can just love and appreciate everybody else's screenplays, and Anytime somebody says, you should write a screenplay, I can say, no, thank you. I'll help you with the characters and the dialogue. I can help you with the format, but I, but you have to come up with a story. Cause that's not my, that's not my thing.
Erick: Yeah. I actually did write a screenplay, uh, about 20 years ago. Yeah. I think, uh, it was living in Minnesota. I submitted it to trigger street. So, and I got some positive feedback on it. It was about, um, it was set in Croatia.
Yeah. Well, in, in Duluth, Minnesota and Croatia. No, I'm sorry, Vancouver, Vancouver, B. C. and Croatia. And it was basically about, uh, just a family and, and dealing with the past of the Yugoslav war because I lived in Austria when that was going on. So, and I've written poetry and my own poetry and there's stuff like that. And one of the compliments I got was the poetry in this is beautiful and I was like, thank you.
Sam: Thank you. I tell you, I, this is hilarious to me. All three of my books have poetry in them. I never asked anyone's permission. No one ever said anything about it to me. Um, like people almost never mentioned it.
And it's just there because I think that. Books should have poetry. I don't know. I just, it just seemed like a good idea. There's so much that like, stuff like that, that where like, I've succeeded because I didn't know it was supposed to be hard. Or because it just made sense to me, so I just did it that way.
And then people are like, what? How did you think of that? How'd you do that? I'm like, I don't know. It just seemed like the way it should be.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I think that we overcomplicate things.
Sam: Oh, well, you certainly you and I do. I don't know about everybody else.
Erick: We start overcomplicating it because we started going, well, it needs to have this, it needs to have that. It needs to have all of these things. And pretty soon we've added on to, you know, and so it's like, oh, well, before I can do my business, I have to do this, and then I have to get a webpage, then I have to get email service.
Then I have to do that. And then pretty soon you're just like, it's just so much work. I don't even want to get started because that's just so much to do. Whereas if you go, well, what … What's, yeah, go ahead.
Sam: But this is exactly the 15 minute thing. Right, exactly. You start making that big, long list and then that feeling of being tired before you even start.
That's a good sign that you are on the wrong track. Right? So, what is the heart of the thing? Like, how can we test this? How can we, minimum viable product, how can we just get it out into the air? Because you are a terrible judge of your own work, particularly while it is still inside of your head. And even once it's out, you're still not that great of a judge of your own work.
It's not your job to judge your work. It's your job to be the vessel for your work, to be the channel for your work. It's your, it's your job to have it come through you. Not your job to manhandle it to pieces until it's nothing. Right. So
Erick: I like that. I like that.
Huh. I hadn't thought of, of kind of approaching it that way, but I think that would be useful for a lot of people if they could just recognize, put it out there. Everybody else is going to judge it. So you don't need to.
Sam: Exactly. And you may have noticed that some of the stuff you put out there that you think, oh, this is embarrassing and everybody's going crazy cuckoo nutcakes for it.
Like they love it. And then there's other stuff where you're like, okay, this is really special. This is really going to kill it. This is going to be great. It's like crickets. No one cares. It happens all the time. I guarantee the thing that is going to be the biggest hit for you is the thing that you think, really, that, that's the thing?
That's the thing? That thing with the dog? That's the thing that everybody loves? Yep. That's the thing that everybody loves.
Erick: Yeah. And I've, I've done that with, with some episodes where I've just been like, Oh, you know, just kind of threw it out there. I didn't think it was going to be all that, that big of a thing, but then people are like, Oh my God, this is brilliant. And I'm like, Oh, cool. Then I'll work really hard on another one. And it'd be like, Yeah. Okay. Like what? This was great. And they're like, yeah, it's all right.
Sam: Yeah. It's one of the, um, very few biomarkers I've found, um, for high creativity is, um, that those of us who are highly creative people, uh, it's not so much that we're more right brained or more left brained.
I'm not entirely convinced that that was ever really a thing to begin with. Interesting construct, helpful, helpful construct. I don't know that it's actually a thing. Um, But, uh, highly creative people make more connections between more things more often. So, uh, we'll put together unusual concepts, we'll find parallels and patterns and things that other people won't necessarily.
And it's beautiful. We love nuance and subtlety and gray area, like, oh, we will get into that and we will over complicate a fucking paper bag. It's ridiculous. So, you need to let yourself have both. Like, there are the time and place to really get granular and there's the, and to really let your mind make all the connections, and then there's times to just Yeah, fine.
I'll just get it out the door. Let everybody else worry about it.
Erick: Yeah. No, very true. All right. So we've been talking here for almost two hours.
Sam: Maybe next time. They can't all be winners, you know,
Erick: I think it was great. Um, I. I really enjoy our conversations because they're always so funny and meandering all over the place, which is fine because I think that, um, as I'm working through and learning how to be a better interviewer, sometimes I, I, you know, I'll write down a whole bunch of questions.
Others, I like to kind of keep very loose and see where they go and trying to find my style and what works with that and be better about asking questions, which I'm not always great at. And that's something that I'm working on. So, but what I appreciate about with you is that you're able to take, I just kind of can leave things and you pick up and run with it.
Um, again, part of the whole creative, creative mind, which, so for me, this has been, this has been a lot of fun. And like I said, I always enjoy our conversations. So
Sam: I'm so pleased and flattered you invited me. Thank you so much, Erick.
Erick: Oh, yeah. So before you go, make sure that you tell people where they can find you online and, uh, and what you're about.
Sam: Yeah. So you can find me at therealsambennett.com and I'm on all the socials as therealsambennett Um, you know, my team keeps threatening to make the fakeSamBennett. Which is going to be me just like with a scotch and a cigarette going, don't do anything. No one cares.
Erick: You should. You should set up a parody account.
Sam: Yeah, exactly.
Erick: Yeah, and just have it just like, just all these, like, just, it's just like a fail blog thing of just things like, don't even try because this is going to, what's going to happen, you know, and just Over the top ridiculous.
Sam: We're doomed. You're 100 percent doomed.
Yeah, you are weird. You are weird. You're super weird. Everyone's talking about it. It's
Erick: like, here's your weirdo meter. You just broke it.
Sam: That's right. Oh yeah. No, people don't like you. It's true. That would be funny. Uh, yeah, no, so it's therealsambennett.com. on the socials at theRealSamBennett, and the new book is called The 15 Minute Method, the Surprisingly Simple Art of Getting It Done.
Erick: All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Sam. And we're going to jump off here. So thanks again for joining me on this Stoic Coffee Break podcast. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening. And if you aren't following me on social media, I would appreciate if you would, you can find me on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee or all of the others, including Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok. I think those are all the ones I'm on at stoiccoffee, all one word. Thanks again for listening.
Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to the most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic philosophy and share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break.
So this week's episode is another Q & A episode, and part of the reason behind that was because I came down with COVID last week and it completely wiped me out. I didn't even get a podcast episode out because I was just absolutely exhausted and had so much congestion and phlegm that my voice was, was all kind of scratchy and raw.
And so, I'm feeling a bit better this week. Still feel under the weather. I took a test yesterday and it still came up pretty positive. So hopefully I'm on the mend. I feel like I am, but yeah, this is my first time having COVID. I've been pretty lucky of avoiding that so far. But I knew the odds were not in my favor that I would stay forever free from COVID.
So this one doesn't seem as bad as what other people had. And I seem to be recovering fairly well. So let's get on with today's episode. So a number of these questions I got from listeners from different comments. One of my listeners I had a conversation with yesterday over Zoom. And I just wanted to kind of pick a few questions that people have posted on social media.
If you have any questions about Stoic philosophy that you would like me to answer, you can find this video on YouTube and post a comment underneath and I will use one of your questions in my upcoming Q& A episodes or you can just find me on social media and respond to one of my posts and ask a question, send me a DM, whatever you like.
So, let's get on with the questions for today. So, the first question that, that I kind of want to address, it was more of a comment that was on one of my previous episodes where I talked about friendship. And somebody had mentioned, you know, well, who has time for friendship? You know, as if it's a luxury to have friendship.
And I responded back trying to be direct, but not, not, not trying to be rude, but simply just saying, well, you have time for it. It is your choice what you do with your time. And if you want to, if you don't want to spend that on friendship, that, that's really your choice. But I think that, you know, It's probably kind of a bigger thing in that we do have very busy lives.
But with that, we also spend a lot of time doing things by ourselves that we could do with other people. That we could spend time with them instead of watching Netflix or, you know, scrolling endlessly on our phone. What if rather than, you know, sitting around at lunch on your phone, you called up a friend and said, Hey, let's go grab some lunch.
Or, you know, After work, you know, you meet up for drinks somewhere. There's always time for friendship. And friendship is one of the most important things that we need to have in our lives. They've shown through different studies that the more friends you have over your lifetime, the close friendships that you have, the longer you live.
So, I was watching a podcast, it was a Diary of a CEO, which has become one of my favorite ones with Stephen Bartlett. And he was interviewing Simon Sinek, and they were talking a lot about friendship. And he gave some really good advice on that. And one of the most important things that happens to us is that we don't make time for our friends, oftentimes because we don't feel like we're that close to our friends.
And, you know, we want to have close friendships. But the best way to have close friendships is to be a great friend. And I think that's something that's really missing in this. You know, it's, it's, everybody thinks that friendship is hard to do, and having close friends is hard to do, but we're all starved for friendship.
So I really think that, think about what you would like for, a friend, what you would like in a friend, and try to be that for somebody else. And a lot of it is just being authentically you, and finding people that you can be yourself around. But go out there, make that effort, because friendship is what makes life great.
And if you don't have time for friends, then you really need to make time, because you are, if you are too busy to have friends, then I think the priorities in your life are probably a little bit skewed, and maybe you're spending too much time at work, or on things that you know that aren't inclusive of other people.
Next question. Can you be stoic and be religious? Yes, plain, plainly put. Yes, you can be stoic and you can be religious. Stoicism is not a religion. Stoicism is a set of principles. It's a philosophy. It's a way to live your life in such a way that really can be adaptable to almost any religion if you want.
And stoics themselves had a theology and as I've been working on my book, I've, I've learned a bit more about this and they have this idea, that there was a great creative and animating force within the universe that kind of managed all of the circumstances of our lives. And it's called the Logos. And this is what created the universe and what kind of keeps, you know, the stars moving.
It is what creates the events that happen in our lives. And the idea behind the Logos is that it's deterministic. It has a big plan for what is happening in the world, that everything that happens, happens for a reason. But within that, you have free will to make choices with the deterministic things that come your way.
So when life circumstances happen, when events happen, natural disasters, whatever you want to consider circumstances and events, you have free will within that realm to be able to make choices about what you want to do to respond to those things. You may not be able to control them, but you can decide how you want to respond to them.
And for me, I'm not a religious person anymore, and like I said, I've talked about it many times on my podcast that I grew up Mormon and found that it just didn't fit me. I found that there were just a lot of things in religion that simply weren't true because the founder of the church made a lot of things up.
And so for me, it was, it was challenging leaving that because I've been taught my whole life. This is the truth. And this is how the way, you know, this is how life works, and that God would punish me if I, if I left the church. But I found that, for me, it didn't really jive with the type of person that I wanted to be.
And so, I don't practice any particular religious faith. Do I believe in a God? I'm not sure. I would say that I'm agnostic at this point. I don't have any proof that there, that there is a God, but there are so many unanswered questions in the cosmos that I, I'm simply withholding judgment until I have better information.
And so I can kind of follow along with the idea of the Logos with the Stoics because there is something. I mean, the fact that we have matter versus not having matter you know, the fact that life tends to build towards creation, even though there is also entropy, meaning that things over time lose, lose energy and decay.
So there's this interesting balance of, well, why does life naturally self-organize and come into creation? How do, how do we have consciousness? What makes consciousness? There's so many questions that I don't know and don't understand, but believing in something larger than myself, that there is some type of creative force within universe is something that, that I think I could be okay with.
But, from what I've seen, and having grown up very religious, and not being it, stoicism doesn't really conflict with any religion. It's about being a good person no matter what. And its core principles are the core principles of many of the world's religions. So, for me, I don't see them as being in conflict at all.
So, yes, in my opinion, you can be religious and be stoic.
All right. Next question. How do I find my purpose in life? Now, this is, this is always a hard thing, and I, I think that young people probably struggle with this the most, but I think even people my age struggle with it. That's something that I've been working on, and I've been, as I've been working on changing my career into becoming an executive coach, it's something that I think we're constantly doing throughout our lives, and we should be doing throughout our lives, is what is our purpose?
And I think that it's going to change over time. But I think that there's this feeling that people feel like that once they discover their purpose, then they'll know what to do with their life. And they will be able to just head towards that, that one goal, and they will be happy. But the thing is, is it doesn't really work that way.
At least in my opinion, I think that part of your purpose in life is to find the things in life that bring value to your life, that you want to do. So there's nothing wrong with setting out in a direction to try and figure out what that is. In fact, that's part of the whole journey, is to discover what your purpose is.
And I know it's frustrating because you want somebody to, you know, just give you a test, or to come up to you and have a conversation with you and tell you, You know what? This is what you should do with your life. And that, for me, kind of robs you of the experience and the exploration and the discovery process of getting in there and figuring out what it is that really works for you.
And sometimes you'll be surprised. Sometimes you may do something where you have some type of aptitude and find that you hate doing that. You might be great at math, but you don't want to be a math professor or you don't want to program computers because it's, it's not anything that is exciting for you. It doesn't, it doesn't get you excited about doing anything, but sitting down and being a therapist, you know, might be the thing that does it for you.
So don't be afraid to go out and try and discover this because there's not a real process, at least I don't see it, That you just follow steps A, B, C, and D, and voila, you know what your purpose is in life. Part of it is to go out and actually discover that purpose. And I know that that's probably not what you want to hear, but I think that if you don't allow yourself the time, the space, the opportunities to go out and discover what it is that you want to do, and to try a whole bunch of different things, Then you're kind of shortchanging yourself of the experience of life.
Because again, you'll never know where things will turn up for you. I mean, for me, I studied marketing when I was in college. I was planning on being in marketing and when I was getting my degree, but I worked in tech while I was in college because it was an easy job and I figured I could learn about computers.
And when I went to find a job after I was getting my degree, nobody would hire me in marketing because I had no experience. So I was like, okay, what do I do? I, well, I've been working in tech a little bit. I know how to build some web pages. So I looked for a tech job and I had a job within two weeks. So I decided I would try that path for a while.
And that ended up being my career. I had no idea before that. I mean, when I, like I said, when I graduated from college, I was just planning on getting into marketing. And when I started college, I was a musical theater major, but I was kind of afraid that I wouldn't be able to make it in that. I didn't have the self confidence to be able to pursue that as a career.
And so, which is why I turned to marketing and now after creating this podcast, you know, I I'm turning into a coach and creating courses and doing my best to help other people in a way that, that is very outside the world of being a software developer or a CTO that I'd done for the last 25 years. So you never know where life is going to take you.
So just really, it's about being open and exploring.
All right. Last question. This was a question that one of my listeners, Christine we had a conversation yesterday over Zoom and she's dealing with some, some tough situations at work. And mostly again, the most problems that you find in in work and at home are relationship problems.
So they're dealing with other people and how do you deal with them better? And her question was, how do you deal with hardships with a sense of rationality instead of anger? And again, in regards to dealing with other people. And I did a few, an episode a couple of weeks ago I think about anger. And I talked about why, why I used to be so angry all the time and how I really have worked hard on overcoming that so this will be a little bit of a rehash on that. But in our conversation when we were talking about this we also had you know kind of came up some ideas on our own.
So I wanted to share this with you probably one of the most important things you can do and this is what the Stoics teach us is focus on when you are in a tough situation on living according to virtue. That you really lean into your principles and in any situation you need to ask yourself, Am I acting with wisdom with this person?
Am I treating them well? Am I being courageous and saying what needs to be said? Am I practicing temperance? Am I practicing self discipline and not, not allowing myself to get inflamed by this other person? And the Stoics talk about you know, looking at things as objectively as possible. And when we're in an angry situation like that, it is incredibly hard not to let the emotions that the other person is feeling trigger our emotions.
And so the more that we can practice that objectivity, and a lot of this is, it takes time to practice that. It takes time of thinking about that, and in a way, kind of rehearsing in your mind how you would deal with those situations. So the Stoics have a practice called Premeditatio Malorum, which is that you imagine the worst possible scenarios so that when they do arise that they're much easier to deal with because you've already prepared for them.
If you, I mean, I know this may sound bad, but if you can imagine the worst thing that could happen when you're having an argument with another person, you know, what is the worst thing that they could say? And how would you respond to that? And if you, if you are able to kind of think through those things and rehearse those things, then when they actually say those things, you know what to do about that, rather than, you know, taking offense at what the other person said. And this is again where that objectivity comes in because you can only be offended if you choose to be offended. Meaning when somebody says something to you, if you broke it down to just purely objective, you know, like the Stoics like to do of breaking things down to their purely constituent components, like the smallest thing.
When somebody says something to you, it simply sounds coming out of their throat. It's the interpretation in your mind that you have, that is creating the emotion that you feel about it. It's that story that you feel. And this is something that's hard for a lot of people to understand. They just think that emotions are something that just happen to you.
But emotions are a result of the thoughts that you have in your head. And if you don't believe me, that emotions are a result of the thoughts in your head. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's say that you had a friend in high school that you were very close to, and you hadn't talked to this friend in 10 years and, but you, you were super close to them before, but you just kind of lost touch and five years ago they died, but you didn't hear about it.
And so after 10 years, you finally hear that this person had died. And you are heartbroken, and you feel upset, you feel sad, you feel that kind of grief. But the thing is, is if emotions were simply caused by the events outside of us, then when your friend died, you should have immediately felt sad, you should have grieved, all of those kind of things.
It wasn't until you found out about it, and you had thoughts about it, you had a story that was going on in your head about your friend who died, that created the emotions in your body. And so every emotion that you feel, besides the, just the core visceral emotions, like, you know, if, if a car is coming towards you, there's, it's more of an instinctual motion, emotion.
But emotions are caused by the thoughts in our head. And so, by making sure that you know what is going on in your head when you're in an argument. What are you thinking? What are you interpreting from the other person? And what are you thinking about that other person? During this argument and if you can start to be more aware of your thoughts about it, then you can actually make some changes on that.
And one thing that Simon Sinek did he gave this really cool exercise about how one time he was fighting with his partner and they were both, you know saying well you did this and you did that and they were you know, laying out facts but they were fighting emotionally, and finally he had the wherewithal to kind of say stop and say wait, you know what, we're just throwing these things at each other and you're, you're spending all this time telling me where I'm wrong and you're right and I'm doing the same thing to you, why don't we switch that up?
I will tell you everything that you are doing right and everything that I am doing wrong. And by flipping the situation, it allowed them to kind of, recognize some of the thoughts and things that were going on in their heads about each other, and by flipping it to where they were only allowed to say what the other person was saying that was correct, then it really diffused the whole situation.
So that, that's one exercise to get to the, the nitty gritty of what you're actually arguing about, and to make the other person feel heard. Because what you're doing is you're saying, this is what you said, and this is right. This is what I said, and this is, this was wrong. And by, and he said that after he had done that in, in one certain situation, it was like five minutes later, they were laughing and, and really having a good discussion about that, because he was willing to take a moment, be objective, and recognize that this situation wasn't working well and wasn't good for either of them.
So that stoic objectivity of being able to take a step back, try and look at the situation as objectively as possible, and choose a course of action rather than simply being reactive. It's probably one of the best things that you can do, and this is why meditation, this is why constantly thinking about stoic ideas, journaling about these ideas, and again, practicing that kind of premeditatio malorum.
What would you say, or how would you feel if this other person you were arguing with said something really mean and nasty to you? Could you give yourself kind of an objective break and not take what they said personally? By practicing those types of things, I think that those really help you to move forward in making sure that you can turn the situation around, and not be so argumentative with this other person and maybe end up having a much closer and more productive relationship.
So that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening. I also wanted to mention if you're not following me on social media, I would appreciate it if you would do so.
You can find me on YouTube and LinkedIn and Facebook and TikTok at Stoic Coffee, all one word, And you can find me on Instagram and threads at stoic. coffee. Thanks again for listening.
Erick: Hello friends. My name is Erick Cloward and I'm the host of the Stoic Coffee Break podcast. And today I am up in the Northern part of Netherlands and I will be interviewing Darius Foroux, which is coming out with the book, The Stoic Path to Wealth. And there's going to be a lot of things in this conversation.
I'm not sure where it's going to go, but I know at the very least, we'll be talking about how to use Stoicism in investing and how using some of those things can help you become a smarter and better investor. Because Stoicism is very much about learning how to control what you can't, or learning to control what you can, letting go of what you can't and stock market is one of the biggest things in that it falls in the arena of things you can't.
So as always, um, thanks again for listening to this or watching this. If you're watching the video on YouTube and let's get started. So Darius, go ahead and introduce yourself and tell our audience kind of what you do.
Darius: Yeah. So, uh, thanks for having me. It's great to connect with you. Podcast about Stoicism definitely up my alley.
Um, yeah, so I've been writing online since 2015 and from the beginning I started writing about Dealing with my own challenges at the time. I switched careers. I was living in London at the time and uh, trying to climb the corporate ladder and um, Uh, I knew it wasn't for me after a year because I realized, uh, I'm an introvert.
I prefer to control my own time and being surrounded by people all the time isn't something for me. And, um, I started to search for answers to what to do in my career. And, um, I always return to books.
Erick: Just a moment. Okay, I guess you're recording. Go ahead. Sorry.
Darius: Yeah. So, when I'm confused or when I am stuck or overwhelmed or whatever it is, I always turn to books for answers.
So, at that time, I really discovered Stoicism because I was really searching and actually I found it in Tim Ferriss book for our work week. You know for years that has been the top book for folks who want to have a little bit more freedom in their career Try to start an online business, etc so I learned about and I was like, uh, this is Exactly what I need.
So I immediately started reading all of the classics and When I started reading I thought I had I need to write about how I I'm using this. So I started writing and I thought, well, why not just write a book from the beginning? So I wrote a book called when you're in a battles and published it. And I thought, okay, I need to have a blog to talk about the book.
And then. Almost from the beginning, well, I started to get some traction. It took a while before, uh, it really reached more people, but I did get some initial response from people. So I knew I was onto something. So that was really the moment that I started to. Take philosophy and Stoicism really seriously by reading, applying, and also sharing online.
So that's how I really got started with this.
Erick: Okay. Yeah. Kind of similar to my journey in that, uh, I was listening to Tim Ferriss's podcast and he mentioned, uh, William Irvine's book, A Guide to the Good Life, The Art of Stoic Joy. And said, this is a book that changed my life. And when Tim says that, you know, he reads so much.
And there's so many things that he finds helpful. But for him to say, this is something that changed my life, would, you know, really just, that hit me. And I, and the only thing I knew about Stoicism at that time, or Stoic, was the typical English term of, you know, somebody with, who repressed their emotions.
So I was like, well, Stoic joy, that doesn't make any sense. So it intrigued me. And I bought the book and read through it once and got some stuff out of it, but I didn't have a lot of lightbulb moments. And I was like, you know, I should get more out of this. So I went back and got the audio book and listened to it for my second time.
And that's when the fireworks went off. I went, I was like, Oh, this makes so much more sense. Life. It was kind of like life was kind of cloudy and then suddenly it's just like everything clarified. Yeah
Darius: Yeah, you find a system or structure in the chaos I think that's what Stoicism really does for for most people because we've all kind of Seen some of the the techniques Like focusing on what you control and not focusing on outcomes and all of these things These helpful Stoic ideas, but we've never found a way of life or like a lifestyle to put everything together until like, at least, you know, for most folks that I talk to, that's what Stoicism does for them.
It like, it kind of encourages them to start living their life in a certain way instead of just going with the flow.
Erick: Yeah.
Darius: So I think that's, um, that's the, the, the most beautiful thing about this philosophy.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, definitely. For me, what it's done is given me a framework that I can easily rely upon to look at any situation.
That, you know, you immediately step into it and you're like, how can I handle this in a Stoic way? So, when I first moved here, um, well, not when, a few months ago, I got, ended up getting scammed by a guy when I was getting an apartment. And, rather than losing my shit about it, being mad and yelling and screaming, getting mad at the world.
It was like, okay, that was a dumb choice. I, I didn't listen to, I didn't listen to my intuition about that. Um, and you know, I'm just taking the steps I need to go into the police and simple things like that. But I didn't really let it disturb me because I didn't want. I didn't want that to ruin my mood for days on end.
And so for me, that was incredibly helpful. Um, so in your book, you talk a lot about how you apply it to your investing philosophy. I think that's kind of the main thrust of the whole book. Um, obviously you talk about how to manage wealth, but I think that it's very much about how to apply it to investing.
So maybe you can give a kind of walk us through the main points of that and what you think is important. Stoicism adds to an investor's outlook on how they should view the market and deal with them.
Darius: Yeah, I think, uh, just like Stoicism is a way of life, investing is also a way of life. Um, I think that if you start seeing yourself as an investor, I think you'll treat your money in a very different way.
And the problem is that most people never look at themselves As an investor, they just think, you know, I'm so and so I have this in this job and they might put some money in a savings account. But when it comes to investing, they think, well, that's for Wall Street or that's for geniuses or whatever.
Right. And, um, I think that when you start seeing yourself as an investor, you'll start taking it seriously and also realizing that It's actually really dumb to not invest because there's so much wealth being created in the stock market. And it doesn't require us to do anything other than to invest in, in the stock market as a whole, not to become a stock picker, because that's something else.
And we might talk about that, but that's something that I almost never recommend unless you are like complete nuts about investing and it's your passion. Like it has, has been my passion since I was like in my teens when I, uh, watched the movie wall street, which was a cautionary tale. It was, but, uh, for most people did the opposite.
So I wanted to be a Gordon Gekko at that time, but I realized later on that like the most famous phrase of the book of the movie is greed is good.
Erick: Yeah.
Darius: And then later on, especially when I read about Stoicism, I realized that greed is not good and it actually can harm your potential to build wealth.
Because if you go after all of these flashy opportunities or meme stocks or cryptocurrencies or whatever, You get greedy, but you also risk ruining yourself. And that's the thing I feel like Stoicism, uh, can help everyone with because those ism, when you apply it to investing, gives you that framework for, um, making sure that you don't ruin yourself financially, stay focused on the things that you control.
While at the same time profiting from the system or capitalism or the stock market, because like we were just talking a little bit before we started recording and we're talking about how the kind of capitalism works and how some people are kind of harmed by that, or actually a lot of people, to be honest.
And, um, but at the same time, we also can't change the system. That's one of the first things that We kind of learn when we read Stoicism because I think that's one of the things that It's so obvious when you read the Stoics, even though they didn't have capitalism at that time um, you kind of sense that they were also talking about kind of the system as a whole or Society as a whole nature as a whole you can't change anything about nature.
You can't change the rules of society Um, but you can work with it and also not You Get frustrated by it, which is I think the first step To not get worked up by it. Uh, the second step is not to get sucked in by it
Erick: To
Darius: get on the hedonic treadmill. I think that's the most important thing you could do I think even if you do those two things you're already winning in life
Erick: Yeah, I can agree with that
Darius: right and then the third thing I think that you can do for yourself is just to say Well, look the stock market has been going up for the past hundred years or actually like the stock market started in the netherlands In the 1600s, I believe, and since then, it's obviously gotten more professional over the, over the centuries, but it has always gone up.
If you look at it as a whole, that have been many years when it has gone down, but over the long term it has gone up. So for me. As someone who was always interested in investing. I tried that whole wall street thing and picking stocks and trying to see if I could get rich quick. And I realized it's almost impossible because the odds are against you.
And all of the folks that you see online, those are the lucky ones. I don't think 18 year old day trader who made a few million did it because he's so skilled. It was because he was lucky. Yeah, you know and and it happens if you have millions of people trading stocks or cryptocurrencies It's natural that there are a handful of folks who make a lot of money with it simply by pure luck So I realized that's not a game that I want to play And then I thought to myself what is a game that I do want to play?
Well, it's a game that really Is more aligned with Stoic principles of Having patience and not going against your own nature and being calm and, um, making sure that you prioritize the long term over the short term. And as I started on this, on this kind of thinking pattern, and it actually took me a few years to kind of come to the conclusion that, If I want to invest in the stock market as a Stoic, I just need to see it as something habitual and I need to pick the most solid investment vehicle.
And for me, that's the S & P 500 index to invest in an ETF, low cost. Um, and it simply just tracks the market. So no stock picking involved or management fees, et cetera. And I just need to do that habitually every single month. And if I do that and then just let it go I can just see it compound over the years because one thing that we can Bet on is that as long as the economy keeps growing or stays alive You know the the stock market will go up and some folks say yeah What if it completely crashes because you know, like on on youtube or on instagram, you always see these doomsday thinkers, right?
Biggest crash coming and those things and and I always say, you know, if that really happens Your savings account is also not going to save you, you
Erick: know, exactly Yeah, if the end of the world happens and the whole market crashes then yeah Having your money in cash or in the bank isn't gonna do you any good either because then yeah Then the currency becomes what is a value that people will be willing to trade for.
Yeah. And yeah. So agreed. Um, I know that for me, I, you know, I've tried doing some stock picking. I'm not very good at it. Um, and I look back in my, I look back on my Robin Hood stuff and be like, Oh man, you know, I, I don't make very much on that. So when reading your book, I recognize that in myself, I'm not the type who has that passion to go chasing stocks and figuring out all of these things like that.
And so I think that was one of the things that I really got from that book was that don't go against my own nature. My nature is kind of lazy when it comes to investing like that. The best thing to do is probably just buy some index funds like that. Yeah. And just call it good. Yeah. Because every time I've tried, well, not every time, but a lot of times when I've tried to pick things, um, individually they haven't done very well.
Yeah. But I think luck, I've been lucky, like you were saying, but I've been lucky overall, in that I've always made money in my, in my business, In the portfolio, in my own portfolio, I've made more than I've lost. So that for me, at least is good because usually the ones that are risky, I only put in a few hundred dollars and be like, if this, if this happens, it's a great long shot.
Um, so for me, that was one of the things I got from that is, you know, I really should just choose a few index funds and call it good like that. And
Darius: if you think about it, you've made more in your career, I would assume then. With stocks.
Erick: Yeah,
Darius: right. And and I think your own ability to earn a living I think is the most valuable asset Especially in this economy and then and that's a lot of something that a lot of folks underestimate within themselves because I also always had this Scarcity mindset when it came to money where I thought okay every dollar that I earn or euro that I earn I need to hold on to You And I need to put it in my savings account or whatever I might need it.
But then over the years, as I started to develop my skills and improve my writing skills and started to build an audience. And I think the audience equivalent of someone who is, you know, um, has a job or works for themselves is their network. Um, so if you have your skills and experience and you have a network, I think you can trust in your own ability to earn a living and that knowledge can help you to make, create some distance between you and your money.
Because I think that's one of the things that I love about Stoicism, that they never judged. Earning money and I think it I think it's even epic theaters who said something like if you can make money by staying Honest go go for it. Yeah, and I also read a Unread it like a few discussions from some Stoicism enthusiasts who said something like yeah Money and Stoicism doesn't really go together.
I I don't agree with that because Money is just a part of everyday life. So we have to stay practical if we say, yeah, money is evil or whatever. We're kind of harming
Erick: ourselves. Yeah. I think that for me, the way that I look at it, uh, and as I've been working on my book and just really digging into a lot of the virtues is the Stokes talk about the only things that are important.
Per se, or the only things that you have control over are, you know, is yourself, you know, your, your thoughts, your beliefs, your actions, and that's pretty much it, and that everything else is external, and it's neither good nor bad, only if it leads you away from virtue. Yeah. So if you becoming wealthy. It turns you into somebody who's greedy and who isn't, you know, who isn't practicing the four virtues, then yes, then wealth is something that is bad at that point for you.
But if you can become extremely wealthy and it helps make you more virtuous, and in many ways it can, because being very wealthy can become a very big challenge for people. I mean, we see people who get very famous, for example, and we see how fame, you know, it was something that they thought they wanted, but as soon as they got it, they didn't know how to handle it.
And it ruined them and we see, you know, trust fund kids, you know, they who don't have to work for their money Are some of the most miserable people you'll ever see because they didn't have to work for it So it's it's not that money is bad. It's just if they'd lead you away from virtue. Yeah, exactly. You should stay away from
Darius: and what you mentioned about people who are born wealthy, I totally agree with that, but even people who are Acquire some wealth but don't know how to deal with it.
Even when they come from Uh, you know from background without money. I recently read about the former tour de france winner bradley wiggins He uh declared bankruptcy Yeah, and I think he won in 2012 or something I'm not a huge Tour de France fan, but I remember watching it at that time. And, uh, it was always this character, you know, and even at that time they said, yeah, he has kind of a passion for alcohol and right.
So he, after he, uh, I think at some point he had an accident or whatever, but he stopped cycling. And, uh, apparently his lifestyle wasn't, uh, you know, Stoic at all. And, and, and his estimated net worth was, I looked it up. Cause I was curious, like how much did this guy earn? Because in cycling, they don't earn that much, but with sponsorships, et cetera, et cetera.
They can earn a decent living. So he did quite well from what I learned somewhere. Some people estimated his net worth to be like 5 million at some point and others 10 million, but let's say let's pick the low end 5 million or let's even call it two or 3 million. That's enough money to have some freedom and let it compile, make a few investments, even if you don't like stocks, real estate is something that a lot of folks do when they get, you know, acquire some money, then it's quite difficult to go back to where you came from, unless.
You really get on some, some weird stuff where you start spending, just spending without thinking about your future. Right? So when I read that, I was like, yeah, you know, it still happens to a lot of folks who acquire some money and then think, okay, this is it. You know, like I'm going to change my lifestyle and I can keep this lifestyle forever.
I don't think that's the case. You know, like one of the things that I always learn from Stoicism is that never expect that your current earnings or current success will last forever. Um, I, I always keep that in mind with writing. I, when I have a period when I sell a lot of books or I get a lot of traffic or a lot of folks sign up for my courses, I always think that, you know, this is not going to last.
And whether it will or not doesn't matter, but at least that kind of thinking keeps me grounded and makes sure that I don't go out there and recklessly spend my money, you know?
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I think that's something that could be useful for a lot of us. I know for me, I've had to really work on my mindset towards money.
Uh, my father grew up incredibly poor, uh, and ended up being a software developer and made good money, but didn't know how to manage it. Because for him, it was, there was that scarcity mindset, and he never really invested much. He died when I was 24, and unfortunately, I picked up a lot of his bad habits about money.
Because working as a software developer for years, I mean, I was always in the higher income bracket. And if I had known how to invest, because it just seemed so intimidating to me, you know, I could be retired by now. But I didn't understand it, and so I didn't really start investing until Probably about seven, eight years ago.
And then was, you know, I would invest for a while and I wouldn't, and then I'd invest for a while and then I wouldn't. And that's
Darius: what I did for a few years as well. And then I found out that that that's just almost the same thing as not investing. Right.
Erick: Yeah. So I didn't do a very good job with that. And.
And now I, you know, where I am in my life, I have enough money to last me a bit as I change careers into coaching and creating courses and stuff online, which is where the direction I'm headed, but it's, it's tight because I'm just living off of savings right now. And so I have to, you know, make sure that I'm cutting down and keeping my expenses really, really lean.
And so like, I want to buy an e bike. I'm like, Oh, should I, should I not? Should I just, cause I got a crappy bike that I picked up for 185 euros when I moved here, which is, it's, it's a comfortable bike, but it's not anything fancy. It's not anything I can go racing on or anything. So it's like, Hmm. So it's, for me, it's, I would like to get to where I have that more abundant mindset and looking at how do I invest my time and my effort into myself and my business.
So that I get the kind of return I want while keeping my expenses very low right now.
Darius: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I haven't really upgraded my lifestyle for as long as I can remember. I did buy a new car like a year and a half ago, but I still live in the same apartment. Um, I have about the same level of spending that I have had for the past, uh, I don't know, like six, seven years or something, except inflation where things have been going up, but I haven't, um, gotten myself into situations where I, I am forced to spend more as in having a big house, big mortgage, uh, buying a new car every year or two years or whatever, or, uh, as in Not buying it with cash, having, um, car payments.
And what's, and what's your
Erick: motivation behind that? What's your thinking or what is it that drives you to stay that way?
Darius: Yeah. Well, for me, like it's two things. It's like on a philosophical level is like, I just don't want to be a person who always desires the next thing or the new thing. I want to be content with what I have.
And I always see it as a, as a challenge because I do. Think about those things on an almost day daily basis, especially when I go on social media, right? Like, oh, wow, that's a really nice car. I, I, I can buy it. Why shouldn't I, right? And then I start journaling or start thinking about it. Like, why? What's the point?
I like, I drive from my home to the office and then to the gym. And like, I might go on a road trip once or twice a year with my partner. And that's about it. You know, that's how much I use the car. Exactly. So, so
Erick: basically what you, the way I, I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but it sounds to me like you want freedom.
Darius: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, so that's that Exactly on a philosophical level. I want to have emotional freedom where I will never Want to be in that place where I attach my self worth to my, the things that I own. So that's the thing that I, that I'm scared of, I would say, right? That's something that I don't want to be because it's very easy to see that around you or when you go online, et cetera.
So that's the thing. But on a practical level, I, I also want to make sure that I always live below my means. And okay, let's say you start earning more. Does it mean you could also increase your means? You can, in theory, if you, if you are comfortable with that, personally, I feel like I'd like to have a bigger buffer.
And it also partly comes from who's your inspiration, right? Like for me, it's Warren Buffett. I look at him and it's like, he lived in the same house for like 60 years, drives the same car for like six, seven years or whatever it is until He thinks it's like a good deal to, to get a new one compared to maintenance and, you know, et cetera.
So he, he turns those things into a practical decision. And I do think that's true, right? Because, um, when a car is, is a little bit older, you know, you end up paying for parts and repairs and whatever. Uh, so that's also kind of a mental strain. So, I always look at how I, how I can live a peaceful and tranquil life.
And then I try to see how I should make my decisions. You know, when it, whether it's financially. Emotionally, uh, practically, where to live, and et cetera. So I just want to have the least amount of friction, while also at the same time challenging myself. Yeah.
Erick: Yeah, and that's one of the things that's interesting within Stoicism.
And I have people write to me all the time about that. It's like, how do you be content? With your life, but still not just acquiesce not just give up on life, you know, just say well I'm content. So you never achieved anything Because if we look at the Stoics, obviously they achieved a lot and they were very Active, you know in everything that they were doing.
I mean Marcus Aurelius, obviously most powerful man in the world Yeah, Seneca was very prolific writer and statesman and was you know businessmen as well as you know was a merchant Yeah, it was very wealthy actually You know Um, Epictetus, you know, got himself freed as a slave and then became a teacher and then eventually just retired, but enjoyed living a very simple life.
So how do you, or what are the things that you do in your life that help you to be content with what you have while striving for
Darius: more? Yeah. Yeah. I, I always want to prioritize mental growth over anything else. Uh, the feeling that I get from writing a great article. Or even like finishing a very interesting book where I feel like, wow, I've really learned something new.
For example, I, uh, recently, well, I haven't finished it yet, but I'm reading, uh, this book called, uh, Against the Gods by, uh, Richard Bernstein or his last name is Bernstein. It's about risk management the history of risk Don't really recommend it for most people. It's a bit dry uh, but it's uh, it's It's very dense.
There's a lot of knowledge a lot of history um Of the economy of how of math and how people looked at risk, etc There were even certain parts that I skipped where I skipped where I was like, yeah, it's a little bit too much for me but like when I have that kind of intellectual exercise of reading and and thinking journaling Taking notes, um, highlighting that's stuff that really gives me energy.
And I feel like, okay, now I can use this to become a better thinker or a better investor, a better person. So for me, that is really always the most important thing to progress mentally. And on a, you know, on a lifestyle basis, I do think it's, it is a little
Also, because I don't want to live a very stringent life where I'm like, I need to count every penny because then I feel like you go back to that scarcity mindset. Yeah. Right. Um, and, um, I feel like that's very difficult to balance because how do you know, right? When it's time to maybe buy that nice car that you want or go on that luxury vacation or something that you want.
So I feel like that's something that I don't think there's like a universal answer. I feel like that's something Yeah When it's when it's the time and when it feels right, that's how I look at it When I when when I feel good about it, i'll i'll do it, you know, like The example that I gave of buying the car or yeah.
What's another example? Like, yeah, I love tech as well. Like I love my devices. Uh, I don't have the urge to buy a new iPhone every year, but every two years I feel like, okay, you know, I like it. Yeah. I feel good when I have a new device, I love using it and et cetera. So why would I deprive myself just because.
Technically, we could use the same phone these days for four years or something, right, before the battery starts
Erick: kind of acting up. Yeah, I think my, my daughter was on an iPhone 6 up until like two years ago. Yeah, right, so you can do it. Yeah, it's, it's fine. And then, then the battery kept, you know, it kept draining so fast that they had to charge it three times a day.
So I'm like, okay, let's, Let's get you a new one. Yeah. And we got a, we got a plan and they got a, and they just wanted the mini one, the smaller version of it. Yeah. And they're just like, that's perfect for me. That's exactly what I need. What I need. And so they bought like one of the least expensive ones because, and they're very frugal and they manage their money pretty well.
I definitely could teach them better, but yeah, I, I agree. And for me, I have the iPhone 15, but that was because. My, I think I had the iPhone 12 or 13 before, and then I knew I was going to be coming over here and I wanted to, and it was cheaper to buy it in the States. Plus I knew that I was going to be doing video podcasts and stuff like that.
And the camera on the 15 is phenomenal. So I was like, okay, for me, it's worth it to upgrade now.
Darius: Yeah, a hundred percent. And then I feel like in those cases, especially if you love these type of products or someone who loves Right. Yeah. Um, I feel like it doesn't make sense to deprive yourself because also life is too short for that as well.
Erick: It's meant to be enjoyed. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah, but I think that's where the Stoic virtue of moderation comes in. Yeah. How do you balance that of, and I think, I think that's what a lot of people miss is they think, Oh, moderation just means, uh, or temperance. I just don't drink too much or don't eat too much and that's pretty much it, but it's like no It's about managing your desires in a way because desire can be a driver that can be incredibly helpful for us We you know, if you desire to have this car, we'll work for it.
You know, I had a friend of mine the other day We were chatting and he he doesn't have his driver's license yet And he took the test twice and failed it and it's really frustrating. It's like Trying to get motivated. So he's like, I'm gonna buy a Tesla and that's gonna be the thing that will motivate me To do this and get it done.
Yeah, I'm like you sure and he's like, well I'm just gonna lease it and I'll put it in my company and it'll all be fine And I was like, okay If that's what if that's what gets your juices flowing and gets you there and you can afford it Yeah good for you, you know for me i'm i'm doing my best to live without a car And so I don't have one here.
I just have that Like I said that really cheap bike, but I want to get a nice bike That's kind of my yeah my next thing but i'm waiting until I bring in some more money and then that will be my reward
Darius: Yeah, as far as
Erick: like i've earned this. Yeah
Darius: Yeah, that's how I look at it too. You know, it's like In stages and then also being very, um, deliberate about what area that you're comfortable spending.
Um, because I don't feel like it's, it's smart for your character. To be loose in all areas. Yeah. Right. So for example, I don't like to eat out often, you know, just like to eat at home almost every single day. Um, when we do, do go to a restaurant, which is, isn't that often, then yeah, just go to a nice restaurant and don't think to yourself, Oh yeah, you know, we're eating out to try two, three times a week or whatever.
Let's you know, watch out what we order and those things, you know, yeah, so so it affords you that opportunity to splurge a little bit Yeah and and but but still like in a kind of normal way without Going insane like the the restaurants make the most amount of money in alcohol So fortunately, I don't oh, I don't drink at all almost maybe a quarter of a gallon A few times a year, and then I'll drink one glass, uh, but mostly at home, right?
So, because, yeah, it's just not my thing, you know, like going out and pouring a bottle of wine and those things. I just feel like, yeah, what's the point? So, I feel more comfortable with the lifestyle as a whole because I can see that for me it makes sense. There are some areas where I don't want to hold back and there are a lot of areas where I just like, yeah,
Erick: I ignore it.
Yeah, don't even, don't even need to give it any attention. So what would you say in your experience with writing about finance and Stoicism over these last few years? What would you say is the biggest thing or the biggest struggle that most people have with investing properly?
Darius: Yeah, yeah, I think the biggest challenge is what you mentioned.
Most folks are intimidated by the stock market because I do get it as well. Like most folks know it from CNBC or like your local finance channel. We have one in the Netherlands as well, FTLZ, and they're always these folks in suits and they use big words and they talk about all of these financials and this and that, right?
And then you think that's the only way to invest. And most people never find out other ways to invest because I don't think it's really, I don't think there's much incentive for the financial industry to push passive investing in it, in an ETF. Um, because I don't know, somehow the system probably works better if And then you have more people try to
Erick: trade stocks.
Yeah, well you get the volatility in there. Yeah. And that's where people are going to make money. If it's just this nice long even curve, then you'll make money in the long run. Yeah. But for the people who want to, you know, to capture those short term gains, then the up down is much better for them.
Darius: Yeah, exactly.
And there are a lot of folks who, uh, exactly. That's what they love and that's what they try to do and they almost see it as gambling So if they can make some money, they're happy. Um, but yeah like Intimidation factor I feel like is the most important thing More most important reason why most people don't invest but because I do think that everyone realized that they They need to do something with the money that they earn, especially You know When you start saving a little bit and then you have enough savings that you can live off for like six months, whatever that you're comfortable with, most people start to think about, okay, this money is sitting on my bank account, even if it's a few thousand extra, right?
Then, and then you think to yourself, what should I do? And then maybe you're at a birthday party. And someone saying, yeah, you know, I made a lot of money with this cryptocurrency. And then you think, Oh, wow. What if I could turn my 5, 000 into 10? Uh, let me try that. And then you get burned and then you're like, yeah, I'm never going to invest again.
Yeah.
Erick: And I know that in the crypto, uh, the crypto stuff over the last few years, plenty of people have done that. I did some crypto stuff for a number of years. I ended up overall doing very well. But then everything kind of went bonkers for a while and I just kind of got burned out on it. Yeah. And so I haven't done anything with it.
I own a little bit of Ethereum. You know, I think like maybe two or three, two or three Ethereum ETH. And yeah, I'm good with that. Yeah. And a little bit of Bitcoin. And I, unfortunately, I owned a whole Bitcoin and it dropped down to 16. And my average cost was 14, 000. It dropped to 16, 000. And I needed some money to do some repairs on my house so I could get it ready to sell.
So I'm like, fine, I'll sell that. Yeah. So I only made 2, 000 profit on it. Yeah. Within less than a year, it was up to 65, 000.
Darius: Yeah. That's another thing. Uh, a lot of people have when they are picking stocks, they sell too soon.
Erick: Yeah. Well, this one, it had gone up to 60, then it dropped all the way down to 16.
And I was like, you know what? At least I can break even on this because it didn't look like anything. And then suddenly. You know, six months later, it was back up to 65. I was just like, man,
Darius: I, that's the emotional rollercoaster that I feel like you want to get off as a, as a passive investor or someone who was just investing for the longterm, you know, let, let that for the guys or whatever people who were glued to
Erick: their screens.
Yeah. And for me, I was in a place where I, I needed the money. Yeah. So it was like, okay. And I. Otherwise, I would have just held on to it. Let it ride. But I needed the funds, and it was either that or sell some stocks. And that, you know, as soon as you sell your stocks, and you have, you know, the capital gains and everything on that.
Yeah. Um, so I was like, okay, let me just sell this off, and I'll be done with it. Um, and then, yeah, then like I said, I'm like, ah, crap. But, you know, it's Again, looking at it Stoically, it's just like, okay, that was an opportunity, they got away, and there's nothing I can do about it, so I could either let that ruin my mood for days, or I could just be like, well, it happens that way sometimes.
Darius: Yeah, and not thinking to yourself, I need to chase that again. Yes. I need to kind of mimic that, or find the next Bitcoin, or The next hot stock or whatever, you know,
Erick: and
Darius: then you get into this cycle that generally doesn't lead to success.
Erick: Yeah. Very, very true. So do you only invest in just S & P 500?
Darius: Yeah. So that's it. Yeah. I have this, uh, this rule that I created for myself. That I call the 90 10 rule and I do for the capital, all of the money that I'm currently putting aside for investing. Um, I invest all of it in the stock market. Um, 90 percent of that goes to the S & P 500. And then 10 percent I use to pick individual stocks.
And then the, the ratio can sometimes be like 85, 15 or maximum. I feel 80, 20, because otherwise the risk reward rate ratio starts getting a little bit messed up where you have more odds of bigger losses, because if you, especially if you do the 90, 10. Even if your 10 percent doesn't do well, or you lose 10%, if the S & P keeps doing well, you'll still progress
and build wealth. Um, so I think it's a great way to set yourself up for success while also. Potentially earning a little bit more, but I only think that's worth it. If you've built up a little bit of a portfolio, if you're kind of investing or picking stocks with a thousand dollars, I don't think it's worth it because you can earn more.
In your job or if you're paying for a raise If you put all of your time and energy into getting a raise or a better job offer Feel like it's a better use of your time than spending hours a week on trying to pick a few stocks And then you invest a few hundred dollars and then even if you have a hundred percent return You still made a few extra hundred dollars.
Well, congrats. You could have made that With a raise every single month, you know, so that's, that's how I look at it, but that's how I set it up, you know, and then I always, I never want to own more than like in that, you know, 10, 10 to 20 percent area, never want to own more than three to four stocks, because I feel like.
This is what Warren Buffett calls the LeBron James analogy. Like if you have a top player on your team, it doesn't make sense to go with the 18th player. So in a similar way, if you have like 10 stocks, you like just stick to the top ones, you know, and that's how I. Deploy the additional capital. And I'm in general, I don't pick the stocks that are already in the SMP.
I want to pick a couple of stocks that are not in the index. Uh, unless like right now, um, as we're speaking, I started a position at Tesla a while ago because they underperformed the market for the past two years. And it's a cyclical stock where in general, in general, like now when car sales are low and we're in kind of a car business recession, um, stocks kind of usually bottom at some point.
And we never know when, so you need to have a long term. Approach to it, but, um, combined that with the fact that I also love Tesla cars. Uh, my mother owns one, so I've driven them there in her car, uh, several times. And I think like the, the self driving is just unmatched, so I don't, I can't see anyone else doing that plus they have the humanoid robot coming up and a bunch of other things that I'm kind of excited about.
So I was like, yeah, this is, I feel like now is a good, good opportunity for me. I never do any investment advice other than. The S & P because I feel like that's a no brainer, right? Like that's the strategy that Warren Buffett recommends. But when it comes to stock picks, I always feel like that must be like a deeply personal reason or deeply personal pick.
Because if you listen to stock tips and advice from others, I think it's almost impossible to stick with those, especially when they go down because then you get nervous. You're like, okay What's going to happen? I don't know this company Like let me just get rid of it and then see what happens and then before you know, it's going up again
Erick: Yeah, kind of the the peter lynch idea.
Yeah, and that peter lynch was a very big advocate of Know that you know by companies that you use. Yeah, like he invested in walgreens, uh, because You You know, he was driving home one time and he saw they're building Walgreens here and they were building Walgreens here They were building another Walgreens.
He went go home. He's like, honey, do you do you shop at Walgreens? She's like, oh, yeah, I think it's great. Yeah, okay And so he's like if they're growing that fast that you know, they just put one here they put here They're building another one, you know over here. So three on the way home from work Yeah I think that they're growing and it might be worth putting getting into yeah And he also talked about how he invested in legs pantyhose the ones that came in the eggs Yeah And it was because his wife, you know, came home one time and said that And he was like, what's that?
And I was like, they're pantyhose. And he was like, what? And he was in this plastic egg. And he was like, so do you like these? And she was like, yeah, they're great. And what about your friends? Oh, all the girls use them. And so he was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna invest in that. And so it had that personal touch.
Yeah. If it was something that he used, then he was interested in investing in it, which is one of the reasons why he did so well.
Darius: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, yeah, I, I'm also, uh, Yeah. Man of his books. I love the way that they set those up. Um, and, and kind of the, the underlying principles of why certain stocks go up and down, and he also talks about the cyclical nature of the stock market.
So I feel like it's a great place to start with, you know, investing. And, uh, the one thing that people often misinterpret about Peter Lynch is that. He never really said that you should buy everything that you use, right? Like a lot of folks and I see this online a lot like oh peter lynch said buy what you use or buy what you know Um, that's not really the true.
It's not like oh, I go to mcdonald's. I just should be Blind about the stock and just buy it at any price. Yeah, but it buy it If you are stock picking geek and the valuation makes sense, right? Yes, and that's the thing that people kind of
Erick: yeah Well, he was he
Darius: was
Erick: saying before you to go out and buy some stock that you that you Will never like you never use their product you'd you'd have no interest in it at all Yeah, and I think his point was Buy stocks that you have an interest in that company.
Yeah. Like if you use Walgreens, well then you're interested in Walgreens and so it has that personal connection. Yeah. So you're gonna be willing to pay more attention to it. Use it. Use it as kind of like a, an audition if you will. You know, these are the ones I'm considering because I use them, which means that.
There's a good chance that other people use them. And so it was more of like, if you're using it, there's a good chance other people are too, so that might be one.
Darius: Yeah. And, and the great thing about the S & P 500 is that. It consists of so many companies that we all use, starting at the top with, uh, now NVIDIA, the biggest, uh,
Erick: part of it.
Yeah, I owned a bunch of NVIDIA a while ago and I sold it for a good profit. And then when the AI stuff started picking up again, I went, I need to buy more of that. And I did. And I, I just a few months ago and I think I already tripled what I put into it. Yeah. And it just, cause I was like, you know, I caught that wave just right.
Darius: Yeah. They, they've been on the incredible, like it's never happened like this fast for a company that was already that big. Um, but yeah, like Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Nike, um, the list goes on all of these great companies one after the other, uh, whether you like their management or philosophy or business or not, there are all of these brands and companies that we use.
Where we get our gas from and, uh, they're, they operate globally. That's another thing that some folks ask is like, okay, if I live in Spain or if I live in Australia or I live in, I don't know, Brazil, does it make sense for me to invest in S & P 500? And I, my answer is yes, because. No matter where you live, almost all countries have access to Apple products and Microsoft, et cetera.
So they're, they're global companies and they are active in your country. So I think it makes sense to bet on the biggest companies and they so happen to be located in the U S but you know, they're, they're active globally. So. I feel like that's just the smartest and quickest way to, to wealth creation.
So this is why I feel like that's the best option. And I, that's also one thing I learned from Stoicism is to not. Be judgmental or not have any personal preferences or not be nationalistic and think, Oh, you know, just because I live in the Netherlands or Germany, I should invest in, you know, the local stock market.
I don't think that should be. Um, a factor, a factor should be okay, where do I have the best opportunity to compound my money? So,
Erick: yeah. Yeah. So, so in a way, your book actually is kind of a very boring stock book, you know, like buy the S & P 500 and then play around on the side with some other things.
Darius: Yeah, it's the advice.
I basically just start out in the beginning. It's like, okay, this is everyone says this is the best technique But the technique doesn't matter because if that was the case everybody would be investing now The most important thing about investing is managing your emotions And that's what the book is about teach folks Techniques and principles for managing their emotions.
Because I think if you're not able to manage, then you either at some point, whether it goes down or up or whatever, or you feel like, Oh, I need that money. Then you get out of it. And as soon as you stop, you, you destroy your chances of becoming, uh, wealthy over the longterm. And when I talk longterm, I generally talk 20, 30 years.
Yeah.
Erick: Yeah. I think that's, that's really important. Is that
We often, you know, we have to just look at it and going up and down all the time. We're like, Oh my God. And freak out about it. Um, I know that when I was heavily involved in crypto a number of years ago, there was definitely a lot of that, a lot of FOMO people going, Oh no, I should have bought this now. Or they hop on it when it's, you know, already at its peak and it's going to crash.
Um, or, you know, it's, they're very emotionally driven. And I know that, I know that I was somewhat that way, but I could also be Pretty good about it, but I never thought about applying Stoicism directly to my investing philosophy But so in your opinion, and again, you're not a stockbroker per se But you think that so for you the S & P 500 it just has enough diversity that that's good enough for you.
Darius: Yeah Yeah, I'm saying yeah, I feel like simplicity is The most important thing for consistency. Uh, if you want to do something for a very long time, it has to be very simple. And you want to take out all of the other options from your mind as a long term investor. And as soon as people start talking about, well, yeah, but you can diversify.
Should you, uh, maybe you should own some real estate. Uh, or some reeds right in Stockholm. I also do own real estate. I have two rental properties, but those basically came on my path. My neighbor wanted to sell his condo a few years ago. I was like, yeah, he said, do you want to buy it? I said, yeah, sure. But I never really went out actively to get in that business.
But, um, if you get opportunities like that, okay, why not? You know, it was great. I feel like the most important thing is just like to go on with your life, to, to do your work, to enjoy your life, be a better human or whatever it is that you is important to you. Uh, and study what you enjoy and, and learn things that you are passionate about and perform or do your hobbies, et cetera.
And then just have very simple strategy that works well. What about gold? You know, or what about. Um, international stocks. Should I have some exposure there? And what about rebalancing? As soon as you start talking about that stuff, you lose like 90%.
Erick: Yeah.
Darius: Uh,
Erick: it gets pretty complicated, you know? And
Darius: even for me, I, I I've been.
Investing since 2007 and I specialized in finance in grad school. And when I think about rebalancing and making it a very active approach, I'm like, yeah, I just don't like, can't be bothered with that stuff. I just don't want to do that. You know, I, I love, I want to just make profit from the S & P. 500 because it just keeps going up because that's where basically capitalism just Gathers, you know in the stock market and then because I love Like following companies and I want to pick some stocks here and there That's what I want to do.
I don't want to be like a portfolio manager. I don't want to hedge My portfolio. I don't want to play around with options and futures and And gold and any other thing, you know, and I said, I said, Oh yeah, maybe you could earn more, you know? Yeah, fine. Great. I don't care other than the fact that I'm already doing okay with the S & P 500.
And that for me is good enough, you know, if even if it does eight or nine percent and it doesn't do the ten percent that it did. You know, on average post World War II, I'll be content with that, you know? So I feel like that's, that's the most important thing for me as a Stoic investor.
Erick: No, that's very true.
And I'm thinking through some of my investments right now, and I think I'm probably going to have to change some of them because I want to be that more active investor, but I'm not, it's, it's not my passion. Um, I remember years ago, I tried to get more passionate about it and it just didn't work out.
It's not ever been my thing. Um, like I fell into tech because I, I found it interesting and I found it. I like, I like creating and building things. And so for me, when I fell into software, it was because, Hey, I'm building something and creating something. Look, I, I do this stuff and then you can click on buttons and things happen.
And it's, it was very cool. So for me, I'm much more driven by creating something than I am driven by, how much money can you make on this thing and making trades. I tried forex for a while one time. Oh, yeah, that was an emotional roller coaster. Oh my gosh And this was long before I found Stoicism Yeah, but I remember I put five hundred dollars into an account and and I I would try trading Uh, I think it was japanese yen and british pound and trying to arbitrage that and I went, you know It was with this group and they were all talking about how great it was and you can do all these things And every time I made a trade, I pretty much just You know, and even, you know, and I would just be like, I could feel that, that stress, um, coming through.
And so I, I finally reached a point where I was just like, you know what, I'm going to close this account, pull all my money out of it because it's not worth the stress. I feel like I'm going to have a heart attack because I'm so worried about this.
Darius: Yeah. Yeah. I can kind of relate to that also, also a little bit.
I had a while when I got into futures trading, uh, S & P 500 futures. And especially when there's not a lot of volatility, when the market is somewhat stable, like it is now, we haven't had like, um, I think even like a 1 percent move in SMP for like months or even this year. And there are not a lot of crazy swings that when you start, that's one of the worst things that can happen to you as a beginner.
If you start in like a period when everyone is making money, then you start thinking you're a genius. And that's when I started with futures trading. Um, I think, uh, I can't remember when, I think, uh, before the trade war, eight years ago, something like that. And then I got back into it again. And, uh, 21 when it was also still stable before the crash.
And then I start thinking, Oh, okay. You know, like this is a great way for me to earn some extra money as short, as a short term trader. And when it, when the market turns against you, your system or framework or whatever that you had and you use before just doesn't work at all. And then you lose everything that you made over six months in like a week or two.
And then that feeling, that's one of the worst things, you know, because it's frustration, anger, everything that you can just. So I, I also had a couple of those types of experiences where I was like, yeah, this is just not worth it. You know, I love picking stocks. I love that, that, that whole game. I just don't want to have too much money on the line.
Plus, I don't want to be attached to it. Where, where it starts to impact my mood and it starts to take me away from my main task in life, which I feel is writing. So that's, uh, yeah, something that I think a lot of people can relate to, you know, especially in the last few years where it's become more mainstream to do any type of trading, whether it's.
Forex or crypto and so many young folks get into it. Because of social media.
Erick: Yeah.
Darius: So they, they fall, everyone falls for the same trap.
Erick: Yeah. And because they get lucky on a few things, they suddenly think they're a genius and then they write it up. And we saw that with the crypto bubble that happened a few years ago, everybody's like, see, it's great.
It's everything. And then when it crashed, yeah, that was, it was pretty bad. And I, I'm, there was one crypto I was invested in was doing pretty well. And it's I got lucky and that I just happened to be watching it one night and noticed that it went from like 60 dollars to Down to 53, down to 38, like in a really short amount of time.
And I was like, this is, this is not good. And so I, I put my trade in and was able to get rid of it. Um, and then I texted my, my daughter had invested some into it. Um, and I was like, you need to sell this now. Yeah. And they were like, okay, and done. And I said, I'm sorry I didn't get to you sooner. I was watching it and I wasn't sure when to get out.
Um, so I got out and I did fine with it, but it eventually went to, I think the last time I had checked on it, it had, it was zero point, and I think it was like 20 zeros, four nine. Yeah. And it had been like 63 at its peak.
Darius: That's nuts. That's the financial ruin that I was. Talking about, I think it happens to a lot of folks.
And when you have an experience like that, when you, when your money really goes to zero, then I think it's very easy to say, you know, like, this is not for me.
Erick: Yeah.
Darius: The right to stay away.
Erick: Very, very true. And I think that, that I can appreciate your investing advice because it does have, it, it, it, it ticks all the boxes.
It's simple to do. It's something that. Has lower volatility. So you may not make as much money as if you were trying to do it, but that lower volatility also helps keep your emotions a little bit more straight. It's diversified. And then if you just do the S & P 500, that's 500 companies you're invested in.
Yeah. So you are, you are creating a large portfolio just by buying one ETF. Exactly. Yeah. And so it, it takes care of all of that for you and you don't have to do the rebalancing and everything like that because it's already done for you.
Darius: Exactly. Yeah. And it covers. All industries that you can think of from actually real estate, um, to energy to tech, which is of course the largest portion.
But I think that's the beauty of the S & P because the S & P rotates based on market cap and the market cap is determined by the economy and or in fact, how well these companies perform in the economy. So You can basically hold that investment strategy for your entire lifetime. Because while for a lot of folks, it's almost unimaginable to think that.
Apple won't be one of the biggest companies in the world in maybe 10 or 15, maybe 20 years, but it's more likely that they are not
Erick: because
Darius: that's just like how history has played out.
Erick: Yeah, the natural life cycle of firms. I got a business degree, marketing degree, but yeah, the natural life cycle of companies.
And it's very challenging for one company to stay at. The top or near the top for too long. You reach a point where you just, there's no more growth.
Darius: Yeah. And the economy just moves to other things that are more up and coming and become all of a sudden more valuable, right? Like we had, you just go back, um, like several decades or during world war two or, and, and a decade after steel companies.
Were the most important companies in, in the economy, right? So they were also the most valuable ones. Um, and then we had a phase of electronics. GE was the largest company and we're actually in that phase now where we're going to, we had Apple. Leading the pack for so long because they made such an impact on the world.
And it was, it is still one of the most important companies, but now we see the shift towards AI. And NVIDIA is starting, is becoming now the biggest company. It just all depends on the economy and what's hot and what's valued, et cetera. Most folks just, you don't want to think about those things, you know?
It's a lot of work to chase those things.
Erick: An I think, I think reading your book has made me rethink about my investing philosophy and I probably need to clean up my portfolio. Yeah. Um, So is there anything, I think we should probably wrap up here. Um, is there anything that you, that we haven't discussed here today that you would like my listeners to understand or to think about, um, as far as, as Stoicism, wealth investment, or just anything else that you think would be important.
Darius: Yeah, I feel like if you've listened to your podcast and you've been, um, practicing Stoicism for a longer time, or let's say for more than a year, or even if it's a few years, it's even better, but if you have a little bit of experience with applying Stoicism in daily life, I feel like it's the perfect product.
Foundation for investing because you already have those basic skill sets of not focusing on outcomes and considering what you control. And when you combine that with, you know, like we were saying, like the simple strategy for investing, then you really, yeah, you will set yourself up for success because you have the mental fortitude.
The only thing you need now is just the financial strategy. And when you put those things together. It's just a matter of time before you build some substantial wealth. And as a Stoic, you kind of have the tools to put that in perspective because you won't get impatient when it doesn't happen within a few years.
Yeah. You remind yourself that I'm in this thing for decades and then you'll become more at ease, keep staying the course. Yeah,
Erick: no, I can definitely agree with that. Like I said, I think for me, looking back, If I had just taken this simple strategy when I started my career in tech, I'd probably be, like I said, I could be easily retired by now.
But I didn't know what to do. And so that's, that for me was why I think it's, it was important reading your book because I was like, ah, this is a very straightforward strategy. And hopefully my listeners will be able to take it on board and, and make some wise decisions about their investments. Yeah, appreciate it.
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate this. Um, it's, it was a, an interesting ride coming up, obviously seeing a whole new part of the Netherlands. But, uh, yeah, I really appreciate having me up here.
Darius: Yeah. Thanks for coming. And, uh, yeah,
Erick: Real pleasure talking to you. So thanks again for joining me on my podcast today.
Again, this is Darius Foroux, his book, Stoic Path to Wealth, comes out, is it out yet? Uh, July 16th. Comes out July 16th. Um, I highly recommend it, it's well written, it's a good read, gives you a little bit of history about investing and how to think about investing. Um, and it gives you the simple strategy that he has, but if you want to become a more of a stock picker type, It can help you develop the mental fortitude to be able to pick stocks without losing your mind And I think that's something we could all handle in our, in our investments in our finance.
So thanks again for listening as always be good to yourself, be good to others. And thanks for listening.
Hey friends. Thanks again for joining me for this podcast with Darius Foroux. I really appreciated his interview. It was enlightening for me to work on my mindset for investing. And I hope that you can get something from that. Again, if you aren't following me on social media, I would appreciate it if you would do so.
You can find me on Instagram and threads at Stoic. coffee, as well as Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, and most of the other social medias out there at Stoic. coffee, all one word. Thanks again for listening.
Do you struggle with anger? Why do you think you get angry? What can you do to manage your anger better? In this weeks episode I want to talk about how Stoicism can help you to get a grip on your anger, and lead a more peaceful life.
“If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?”
—Rumi
The other day I was out on my balcony and heard someone from an apartment above me shouting and swearing. I couldn’t hear much of what he was shouting or even what language it was in, except for the swear words in English. I couldn’t hear another voice, though I could tell that he was directing his anger at someone else, so I assume that he was talking on the phone.
As I listened to this go on for a few minutes and wondering what he was so angry at, it brought me back to the arguments that I used to have with my ex-partner over the last few years. I could feel myself feeling his anger, and I felt this wave of shame wash over me for the way that I often behaved in that relationship. I started thinking about if I’d be better able to handle myself now, or if I’d fall back into that same type of behavior if I got into another relationship.
And to be honest, I’m not 100% sure.
So I started thinking about why I was so often angry with my last partner, because even though I have thought about it from time to time, it’s something that I want to get a handle on. I want to make sure that the reason I don’t get angry like that isn’t just because I’m not in a relationship at the moment. I want to understand why I was angry and why, even with my deep understanding of Stoicism as well as understanding the long term consequences of not controlling my anger, I still didn’t seem to have a handle on my temper when it came to her.
So, as with many of my podcast episodes, I decided to sit down and work through this by writing about it so I could rationally examine what the causes of that anger were, and what steps I can take to make sure that I’m living the way I want to live, and act in accordance with my values. Because with all reactive behaviors, until you can get to the root of it, by understanding the conscious and unconscious thoughts, perspectives, and beliefs, it’s really hard to change them.
Digging Deep
As I began to explore this, one of the key things that I realized was that in many ways I didn’t trust her. I didn’t trust that she would truly accept me for who I am. I would often tell her what I thought she wanted to hear rather than what I truly thought about something. I basically would lie to her because I was so afraid that she would hate me if she knew the real me. This of course made it harder for her to trust me because she didn’t know if I was telling the truth about something, or just saying what I thought would make her happy.
So, why would I do that? Why, given the Stoics emphasis on being truthful and facing reality head on, would I lie about things, especially small things that didn’t really matter all that much, which was something that she asked me several times? I think that some of it stems from trauma in my childhood. When my father was upset about something, or even sometimes when I was just worried that something might upset him, I would bend the truth a bit or even outright lie just to keep him happy. I was trained that lying was okay because it kept me safe from my dad’s anger and violence.
Another factor was growing up in a strong religious where conforming to the beliefs of the church were more important than saying what you really thought. There was a strong social pressure to fit in and behave in the way that was expected of you. You learned how to say and do all the correct things in order to be seen as a good member of the church.
Now, don’t get me wrong, there are lots of good reasons for societies to have rules of behavior. It keeps things orderly and safe when there is a strong culture of following rules that are part of our social contract. This is how we are able to live together in large groups and communities. However, when it comes to a persons relationship with god, of their personal beliefs, I think that’s where it starts to intrude on you own self concept. When you feel pressured to believe in things that don’t make sense to you or that you don’t feel are part of your own personal principles and perspectives, you lie to yourself and others to keep them happy and to think of you in certain way.
Anger is Fear in Action
So how does this all relate to anger and Stoicism? It’s been said that anger is just fear in action. Usually we get angry because we feel fear, and we’re trying trying to control the situation with that anger. Whether that’s trying to control another person, or getting upset that things don’t work out as we want them, at the core of it, we’re afraid.
In my case, I wanted my partner to love me, and I tried control her through subtle manipulation with the lies I would tell to try and convince her that I was someone worth loving. When that would fail, I would get angry and try to control her with anger because I believed that she didn’t love me. I desperately wanted her to love me and when she was upset with me, I was afraid that she didn’t love me, because that’s what I felt when my dad was angry at me—that I wasn’t loved.
Holding Onto Anger
Another aspect I want to talk about is why we hold onto anger. Holding on to anger is also something that many of us do, but why is holding onto anger such an appealing thing? Anger feels like power, and power feels good. But the thing is, anger is the illusion of power. When we are angry, we are not in control of ourselves. When we hold onto anger, we may inflict harm on others and feel like we are in control, but the person that we harm the most is ourselves. For example, whenever I’d get any with my ex-partner, I felt awful and ashamed afterwards. I felt like I’d let us both down, and pushed her even farther away.
Frederick Buechner in his book Wishful Thinking: A Theological ABC, paints a great image of what happens when we hold onto anger:
"Of the seven deadly sins, anger is possibly the most fun. To lick your wounds, to smack your lips over grievances long past, to roll over your tongue the prospect of bitter confrontations still to come, to savor to the last toothsome morsel both the pain you are given and the pain you are giving back—in many ways it is a feast fit for a king. The chief drawback is that what you are wolfing down is yourself. The skeleton at the feast is you."
When Marcus Aurelius wrote, “How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it,” he didn’t just mean that we harm others, but more that we harm ourselves. Seneca clarifies this further, stating, “Anger, if not restrained, is frequently more hurtful to us than the injury that provokes it.” When we lose our cool, we become a lesser person. We show ourselves and others that we are not on control of ourselves, regardless of how much we rant and rave. We are also choosing to put ourselves in bad state of mind and disrupt our own inner peace.
How can we get better at managing our anger? What active steps can we take to not let ourselves let irritations, disappointments, or even betrayal, send us spiraling and behaving in a way that is destructive to ourselves and those around us? I think the biggest key is radical acceptance.
Acceptance of Externals
First: Acceptance of all the things in life you can’t control.
The Stoics teach about the Dichotomy of Control, which means that we truly understand what is under our power and what is not. Epictetus clearly explains the difference: ”Some things are up to us and some things are not. Our opinions are up to us, and our impulses, desires, aversions—in short, whatever is our own doing. Our bodies are not up to us, nor are our possessions, our reputations, or our public offices, or that which is not our own doing."
In short, what we control is our perspective, beliefs, desires, and actions. That’s it. Everything else is outside of our control. By accepting this fundamental truth, we can learn to focus on the few things in our control, and let go of everything else. We can’t control other people, our reputation, or even external circumstance and events. We can only control how we treat other people, our own behavior, and how we choose to respond to the things that happen to us. By accepting that most things are not in our control, we can look at things with a little more objectivity and rationality, and think about what choices we want to make that will be more likely to lead to better outcomes.
I think a good place to practice this is in accepting other people for exactly who they are. Before I moved to Amsterdam, I was dating a woman who I’m still close friends with. We spent a lot of time together, and never seemed to have much conflict. I asked her once why it was so easy to be around her and why things seemed to work so smoothly, given how my last relationship was often fraught with anger. She said, “Well, part of it is that we’re still getting to know each other, and that part of a relationship is often easier with new relationship energy. But, I think a bigger part is that I accept you for exactly who you are, with no expectation that you will ever change or be someone else. It’s not my job to change you, or expect you to. You will change, and if you change into someone that doesn’t work for me, then it’s my choice of what I want to do about it.”
I was floored. What she said resonated deep in my bones. I did feel incredibly accepted and appreciated for who I was, not some persona that I was putting on so that she would like me. Now this is not say that my previous partner didn’t accept me and love me. It was that I believed that she didn’t or couldn’t, which was not fair to her because I didn’t trust her to do so. It was a good lesson for me to work on accepting others for exactly who there are without trying to change them.
Acceptance of Yourself
This leads me on to my second point: Acceptance of yourself for exactly who you are.
Because anger is driven by fear, often we will react with anger because of some insecurity deep within ourselves. When others point out some flaw of ours, or someone says something disparaging about us, we often react with anger because deep down we’re afraid they might be right. This due to not really knowing and accepting of all parts of us, especially the things we don’t like about ourselves. When we feel the discomfort of who we project ourselves to be to others being in conflict with the darker parts of ourselves, we often feel afraid of what others might think of us, or even who we think we are.
For example, if we think we’re a very generous person and someone points out that something we’re doing is selfish, there’s an inner conflict. We might get defensive and even angry that someone would think that we’re being selfish. But if we can accept that sometimes we may act in ways that are selfish, when someone calls us out, we can objectively look at our actions and decide if we were acting selfish in this instance. If we were, then we accept that, and so our best to make amends. If we weren’t and we felt that we were acting in a way that aligns with our principles, then we can try to understand why the other person felt like we were acting selfish.
Marcus Aurelius said, “If anyone can refute me—show me I'm making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I'll gladly change. It's the truth I'm after, and the truth never harmed anyone.” This means that if the other person was right, there’s no need to get angry about it because it’s the truth. If the other person was wrong, then there’s still no reason to get angry about it because you’re living up to your principles.
Anger in Danger
Now, I often have people ask me about getting angry in dangerous situations, and if that isn’t key to our survival. When something frightens us, we often get angry about it, which can feel like an instant visceral reaction. But the more we can keep our cool in dangerous situations, the more we can make rational choices. This is why soldiers train in challenging circumstances, so that they can keep their fear under control. Once they get angry, the chances of them taking a rash or dangerous action increases dramatically putting themselves and others at risk. The more you can rationally control your fear, the more control you have over yourself in any situation.
Conclusion
Before I go, let me leave with this thought from Seneca:
“People who know no self-restraint lead stormy and disordered lives, passing their time in a state of fear commensurate with the injuries they do to others, never able to relax. After every act they tremble, paralyzed, their consciences continually demanding an answer, not allowing them to get on with other things. To expect punishment is to suffer it; and to earn it is to expect it.”
Dealing with anger is something that all of us have to learn if we want to thrive in the world. By understanding that anger is driven by fear, we can start to look at the root causes of why we often act in ways that are truly counterproductive to the well being of ourselves and others. By learning to accept ourselves, and accept those things out of our control, we can make better choices that benefit not only ourselves, but more especially, those we love.
Hello, friends. My name is Erick Cloward, and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic philosophy and talk about my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them, all within the space of a coffee break.
This week’s episode is called Stoic Fatherhood, Timeless Wisdom for Modern Dads. Are you a father? Are you close to your father? Today I want to talk about how stoicism can help you to be a better father and to appreciate your own.
So one of the interesting things at the beginning of meditations is that Marcus Aurelius takes a bunch of time to talk about the people who had a profound influence in his life, and he gives thanks to those. and he talks about what it is that he learned from each of them. And two of the main father figures that Marcus Aurelius had were his grandfather, Verus, and one of the things that he talked about Verus was that he taught him “good character and the avoidance of bad temper.“
The other most profound influence that he had in his life was Antonius, who was his adopted father, who was the emperor before Marcus. And when Marcus was adopted by Antonius, he knew that he was going to become emperor. And so he really looked up to Antonius. Antonius was a profound influence on Marcus’s life. And throughout Meditations, he refers back to Antonius. And one of my favorite passages and probably because of my own past experience, in speaking or writing about Antonius, he said, “He never exhibited rudeness, lost control of himself, or turned violent. No one ever saw him sweat. Everything was to be approached logically and with due consideration, in a calm and orderly fashion, but decisively, with no loose ends.”
And that, to me, is incredibly high praise. And to give a little bit of why that’s so important to me. I’ve talked a lot about on this podcast about my own challenging relationship with my father. My father was a complicated man. There were many things that I appreciated and really respected about him. He was very smart. He could be very kind. He could be very funny. And he was always there for us in a lot of ways that I really appreciated.
So the other day I was riding along on my bike and I saw a little kid on a bike with training wheels and I thought about what it took for me when I learned how to ride a bike. And in my case, what happened is we were riding, we were driving somewhere and my dad saw a bike that somebody had put in the trash, just sitting on the, on the curb in our neighborhood.
And because my father grew up poor, he was not one to waste anything, and was fine when things weren’t in perfect condition. So we pulled over the car and we went and looked at the bike and the only thing that was wrong with it was that the hard plastic seat, it didn’t have a nice comfortable seat the hard plastic seat had a crack on the back and part of it had come off.
So it wasn’t the most comfortable thing to sit on, but for me, I think I was five or six at the time, six at the time, it was just fine. So we took it home. He made sure all the tires were, were fine and that it was safe and everything was tightened up. And he helped me that day to learn how to ride a bike in one day. He would stand behind me while I was on the bike, holding onto the seat and holding onto the handlebar to help me steer. And we would move along the grass in our front yard. And so that I could get comfortable with being on it. And over time, over a few hours time period, I was able, he was able to let go.
And I was able to steer the bike down the grass. It wasn’t a very big yard, but steer the bike down the grass. And then I would stop, get back, go up to the slightly higher part of the yard and then do the same thing. And we did that for hours until finally I was able to get to the point where I could balance on the bike by myself and was able to ride around the yard that we had on the grass without falling over.
And by the end of that day, I was actually out riding on the street with my older brother because my dad had taken several hours out of his day to teach me how to ride a bike. I didn’t need training wheels. He just said this is something that I think you can do and I’m going to do my best to teach you how to do it.
And like I said, I was thinking about this as I was riding home. the other day on my bike, and it really made me miss my father. And I actually teared up while I was driving, while I was riding home and, and ended up crying a little bit, just thinking about many of the great things about my father, even though there were many challenging things.
And I learned a great deal from him, and as I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned how to be much more forgiving of some of the things that he did when we were younger, that he wasn’t very good about being angry. And he’d loss his temper quite often over small things, which is not something that lends itself well to have a close relationship at times, because when you feel like you can’t trust your parent, it can cause a lot of damage.
Which is why, for me, talking about fatherhood is something that’s so important. And, one of the things that I remember, when I had kids. was that my guiding principle, sadly enough, was that I didn’t want a father like my father. I didn’t want to be that kind of father. I wanted to make sure that my kids always knew they were loved, that home was a safe place for them. And I worked really hard up until even now that we can talk about anything and everything, and that they know that they are absolutely loved and cared for, and that I will do everything in my power to support them in any way that I can.
So, what can we take from Stoicism to help us to become better fathers, for those of us out there who are fathers, or who are planning on becoming fathers someday? I think the Stoics teach us a lot of very powerful lessons, and the first one is you should embrace the role of virtue. As Marcus Aurelius said in, you know, the opening quote of this, was, “Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be, be one.” And that means that we should do our best to embody the virtues that we want to see in our kids, that we should be the kind of people that we want our kids to be.
We want to practice wisdom and courage and justice, meaning how we treat other people, and self discipline in our lives. And that by being a good example to our children, that they will be able to see not only the things that we think are important, but how to actually live these things. It’s oftentimes much easier to learn things by example than it is just to read them in a book.
I know for me oftentimes that when I’m struggling with something or thinking about the type of person I want to be, I think about the role models that I had in my life and think about what they did and how they acted and try to, I guess, mimic that in a way to try and become that kind of person because I think that Again, learning from example is sometimes the fastest way to learn almost anything.
The next thing that’s important for fathers, and this is something that I really worked hard on when I was a father, or I still am a father, but when I was raising my kids, was that I practiced patience and that I practiced acceptance. And this is something that, because children, when they’re growing up, aren’t just small adults who know everything, They need to learn things.
They need to struggle through things. They need to fail at things. And they’re going to make plenty of mistakes. They’re going to do things that annoy us or frustrate us. But the more that we can be patient with them and accept them for exactly who they are and not try to make them become something that we think they should be but rather help them figure out who they want to be.
I think that’s one of the most important things that we can do as parents. And as Epictetus advises us to practice patience, we should make, you know, he said, “Make the best use of what is within your power and take the rest as it happens.” Because there’s so many things in life that we don’t have control over.
And things where kids are going to make mistakes, they’re going to do things that are going to cause problems. But, again, because we don’t control our children, they’re…we need to make sure that we’re controlling ourselves, we’re living the type of life that we want to be, we’re being the type of people that we want to be, and we’re doing our best to support them in also becoming the type of people that they want to be.
The next step that we can do that I think is really helpful is we can cultivate emotional resilience. So one of the struggles that I had with my dad was that he had a pretty explosive temper. And it was often unpredictable, which was probably the hardest part. So it was really challenging at times because we would just be playing around and doing kid stuff and he would be in a bad mood about something that had absolutely nothing to do with us, but it would set him off and he’d get very angry and oftentimes he’d pull out his belt. That was the worst thing that he hit us with.
And it was pretty scary and it reached the point where we would often avoid being at home around him because we were scared of him. And I didn’t want my kids to grow up that same way. So I really worked hard when dealing with my kids to practice that kind of emotional resilience. To be calm and to be, you know, keep that even temper as best I could because as kids are growing and they’re going to make mistakes. And if we can’t learn to control ourselves, then it’s going to be much harder for them to control themselves. And we can learn about this from Seneca, where, you know, we understand that it’s our own thinking around things –
like, in this case, my father and the internal demons that he was struggling with, is “That we suffer more in imagination than in reality.” That often times the things that we think are going to happen that our kids do, you know, are going to cause all these big things. When often times at the end of the day, it really wasn’t that big of a deal and we overreacted to that.
And I’ve had a few people write me talking about how they struggle with parenting and asking for advice. And often times it’s because the parents are trying to control what their kids do, because they’re afraid that their kids are going to make mistakes or do something, you know, that’s, that’s going to end up embarrassing them. But the thing is, is that kids are kids. And what they need more than anything is to know that you are always there to support and love them.
The next thing that we can think about is that we have lots of quality time and spend time with our kids. Because life is short. As Marcus Aurelius reminds us, “You could leave life right now. Let that determine what you do and say and think.” Make sure that when you’re with your children, that the way that you treat them is always a way that if you died today, that their last memory of you would be something that you would be proud of, that they would have this great fondness for you.
And even if it’s just something simple, it’s just, you know, sending a text to your kid saying, “Hey, I love you. I care about you. I’m proud of you.” Whatever it is, making sure that you understand that you let them know that they’re loved because time is short in our lives.
So when we look back on the Stoics, we can also see that the Stoics were good examples of how to be good parents. Marcus Aurelius had a large number of children, and unfortunately there were only a few that survived him, but he tried his best to balance everything that he was doing as emperor with being a good father. And again, because the examples that he had, who were fathers to him, with Antonius and his grandfather Verus, I’m sure he was probably a pretty good father. And we can see that he struggled with being a good person. And when you try to be a good person, then those things naturally emanate out in the way that you treat other people.
Another great example, that’s not talked much about, is Epictetus. Epictetus didn’t have any children of his own. But later in life, when he had basically retired from teaching, he took in a kid who was going to be abandoned and raised him as his own with another, with a woman. It’s never said if they were married or if they were a couple, but he recognized that he could still do good in the world. And he took on a kid that wasn’t his own and raised it just like his own. And to me, that shows that he was willing to put his philosophy into action, that he was willing to step up and take care of somebody that he didn’t need to, but he chose to.
So what are some things that we can do in our daily lives that can help us become better fathers? I think the first is to set some time each day aside for reflection, taking the time to meditate or taking time to sit down and Be thoughtful about your life and be thoughtful about your day and maybe write about your kids and write about what you’ve learned from them.
And maybe write about things that you could teach them. And talk, think about how you are being as a father. Because if you’re not taking the time to actually reflect on that, then it’s harder for you to be deliberate about the things you want to do and the things you want to accomplish as a father.
So the one kind of a funny idea is to practice premeditatio malorum, which means to the premeditation of evils. And this is to take the time to contemplate all the things that could go wrong because there are plenty of things that go wrong when you’re raising kids. There’s all kinds of chaos when you have children around, but the more that you can recognize all those chaotic situations, the more you can keep your equilibrium and your equanimity within those situations, allowing you to be a good example and a good leader and father to your children, that you don’t overreact to situations because you’ve already thought about all the horrible things that could go wrong.
And I know that’s bad sometimes to, you know, people struggle with the idea of premeditatio malorum because they think it’s depressive. But premeditatio malorum is the idea of sitting down in a safe space and just imagining, “how would you handle these situations? What are the, what’s the worst that could happen”, so that you can be composed and you can handle these situations in a calm and measured manner.
Another thing that we can do is practice gratitude. Seneca advises practicing gratitude as a way to cultivate contentment, and by taking the time to practice gratitude, voice your gratitude about life, voice your gratitude about your children, to your children, and show them how great life is. And to help them to appreciate all the things that they have in their lives. And letting them know how much you appreciate them.
I know for me, I tell my kids all the time how much I love them. And one of the things that I really appreciated about my kids is that kind of a side effect of having children was it made me a much less selfish person. And that’s something that I’m grateful for. I had to learn how to put a lot of my needs aside because I had these two children that I needed to take care of. And it wasn’t always fun, but in doing so, I learned to be more patient. I learned to be kinder to myself. And I, like I said, I also learned to be a much less selfish person, which was something that I needed in my life.
So fatherhood, when viewed through a stoic lens, becomes, like I said, a profound opportunity for personal growth and virtuous living. These are great opportunities for us to practice the four virtues. We practice wisdom when we teach our kids. We practice courage in stepping up and being a good example for our kids and helping them when they need help.
We practice justice by treating them fairly and kindly and lovingly. And we practice self discipline because sometimes we have to put our own needs aside in order to facilitate the needs of our children. And for those of you who are fathers out there, it can be tough sometimes, but leaning on the framework of Stoicism, it can give you some good guiding principles of how to be a good father, principles that you can pass on to your children, and hopefully they they will make you proud and become the type of people that we need in this world.
And that’s the end of this week’s Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
Just want to remind you, if you’re not following me on social media, please do so. You can find me on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee. And you can find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok at StoicCoffee.
This week I sit down and answer listener questions. I talk about how to apply Stoicism on morning routines, what mantras I use in my life to help keep me in the right mindset, how to detach from abusive people, and advice for managing a quarter life crisis.
Transcript:
Hello friends. My name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoicism and share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a Coffee Break.
This week's episode is a question and answer episode. I've got a couple of questions that you sent in to me and I'm going to just Sit down. It's going to be me on the mic, just talking about some of the questions that you asked and do my best to get my Stoic perspective on them and how you might be able to improve some things in your life.
So let's start off with question number one, which was all about morning routines. So the Stoics didn't have any particular morning routine, although Seneca did advise that we take time to journal every single morning, and I'm sure that he did. He was a very prolific writer, writing to his nephew, Lucilius, in the letters of Lucilius.
I think there are 112 or 120 of those. Plus he wrote a number of plays, a bunch of essays, a bunch of treatises. And, so we, we know from that, that he wrote quite often, Marcus Aurelius did talk about, making sure that when you get up in the morning, that you prepare yourself for the day. And so obviously we have Meditations.
We didn't know if he initially wrote them in the morning, but there was a pretty good chance that he did before he started his day to help get his mind focused. So my personal routine is that I get up every morning and I do yoga. So I find that as I get older, making sure that everything is well stretched out, just makes me feel better all throughout the day.
And normally after I do yoga, I will do some weights. Unfortunately, I've had to take some time off because I have stitches in my left hand and I have to wait for the cuts that I have to heal up. So, yeah. But I found that physical exercise in the morning is probably one of the best things you can do. It gets your blood flowing, it gets a good start to your day, and you generally just feel better all throughout the day when you do that.
Some other things you can definitely add into your routine, like I said before, journaling is a big one. I struggle with this sometimes. I forget to write in my journal for a couple of weeks and then I'll get back to it. But I do find that it helps to focus my mind on the day and get some of the, the chatter that is going on a little more under control.
I also think that meditation is incredibly important. And again, I've kind of fallen off on this at different times and then I'll go back to it. But meditating is how you get to really pay attention to the thoughts that are going on in your head. While journaling is, is a good way to do that as well, depending on how you, you kind of operate, but I find that meditation is very powerful. And a few years ago I did a, a morning routine where I got up and I meditated for 60 minutes for 60 days in a row. And it was quite an experience. And I found that. It really changed my brain, for lack of a better term. It kind of rewired how things worked for me.
And I found that I was better able to be aware of my thoughts. Not just when I was meditating, but throughout the day when I felt something was, was frustrating me, or I was feeling anxious about something because I had practiced for 60 days for 60 minutes of just paying attention to all the thoughts going on in my head.
It makes it much easier for me to identify the things that are distressing me and to slowly kind of move those thoughts in a better direction, which helps improve my mood overall. So I think that a morning routine for each person is individual. You need to find what works best for you. But I would recommend, like I said, something athletic in some way, whether that's going out for a short run or a walk in nature or jumping on your Peloton, or if you have a rowing machine, whatever it is, just 20 to 30 minutes.
Every single morning of good exercise is a fantastic thing. And then do something for your mind to get it going. And that's where journaling and meditation come into play. I'm sure there are other possible routines that you can add into it, but, but at the bare minimum, doing at least 20 minutes of each of those things, I think is a great way to jumpstart your day and keep you going.
So let's move on to the next question. Next question is, do I have a daily quote or mantra that helps me to stay on my Stoic path. Hmm. And I thought about this when I read this and I don't necessarily have a particular mantra, but as I've been working on this book for, on Stoicism, that should be coming out in the fourth quarter of 2024, one of the things, the ultimate theme that keeps coming up with the Stoics was this focus on living in accordance to virtue. And what they mean by that is they have four cardinal virtues, which are wisdom, courage, justice, meaning how we treat other people, and temperance, which is roughly translated in different times to mean moderation and self discipline.
And what I like about, that idea and constantly thinking, you know, is this me living according to virtue? Am I living in a way that I feel good about in my life? Am I living with integrity? And that focus on virtue that the Stoics have, the reason why it is so important is because when you live according to virtue, when you are judging every single action that you're doing against: “Is this the right thing to do?”, then you can feel good about anything that you do because you are always living according to your values and principles.
So I think that might be probably my, my mantra, if you will, that helps keep me on that path is living with integrity: “Is this the right thing to do?” There's some others that are always very, very helpful, like Amor Fati, you know, when, when things are, when things are going not in the way that I like and I'm stressing about them.
It's just to remember that “What is this that I am trying to control that I can't control?”, because usually anxiety, stress, anger, those types of things come up because we're trying to control things that we can't. Whether that's things that are just happening to us, you know, external events, natural disasters, those kind of things. Or if it's other people, and I think that most of our, most of our frustrations come with dealing with other people.
And again, those are things that are outside of our control. So for me, just remembering that, you know, I need to love my fate. I need to love everything that happens to me. I need to just relax and kind of go with the flow of things because if it's something that I can't control, then why should I stress about it?
So I think that's another one that's incredibly helpful for me. I know that a lot of people also, for them, memento mori is a big one, because it reminds them that at any moment they could leave this life, and that they should remember death. And some people think that's very morbid, but I've found in most things in Stoicism that there's always two sides to everything, and with Memento Mori, it's not just that you remember death and you could be dead at any moment, you could be dead tomorrow, it's that, while it's important to live really well right now, and to do things in the right way, and to do things in a way that you are proud of, if you also take the longer view of that, it also means that you're going to be dead soon. So why are you stressing about this thing? Because in the long run, in the universe, the, the, the expanse of the cosmos and the timeline of the universe, we're just a tiny blip. We are nothing. We are incredibly small and that's incredibly empowering.
So I have this cartoon that I've found, and I sent it off to my kids because I really, I just thought it was so perfect. And in the first frame it shows this person and they have this sad face on and they're, you know, they look very distressed and it has a, you know, the caption underneath that says, “No one gives a shit.” And then in the second frame, it showed the same person but with more of a happy face on and like with their hands raised up and they were joyous and it's saying, “Nobody gives a shit!”, meaning, well in this case, we are so worried about what other people think and we're so worried that people don't really care about these things, but, you, if we frame it, you know, it's the same thing, just in a different perspective. That in one case, we look at it, oh, nobody really cares about this. But then when we think about it, well, nobody really cares about this.
So we can make mistakes, we can do things wrong, and we can just be free to be who we are. And so I think that learning how to reframe things, and in this case, reframing memento mori, and that this thing that I'm so stressed about in a hundred years, in a thousand years, it's not going to mean anything.
It's not going to be anything that maybe anybody will remember. But then on the flip side of it, how we live each and every day and being present is incredibly important, even though in a thousand years it may not be. But having that two sides on that perspective, I think is also very helpful for me to make sure that I'm, I'm doing things in the right way and that I'm doing things that I'm going to be proud of throughout my life and my career, also, living in the present.
Alright, on to question number three. How do you detach from others who have abused you and are destructive to you? This is a tough one. So, I had a friend of mine recently who we sat down and we chatted because They broke up with their ex a while back and they have a kid together and they're really struggling, or he's really struggling with it because, she's incredibly selfish. And because she's always kind of manipulating him around and she gets angry at him over all kinds of things because she knows that that's a way to control him.
And the reason why it's hard to detach from people who cause these problems for us is that we love them, or at least at one time we loved them and we were close to them. And because their opinion to us and their opinion about us mattered. Because we wanted their approval. Because we wanted them to love us. We wanted them to care about us. And I know this is something that I've struggled with in my life.
My last relationship was tough in many ways. And, I didn't always act in a way that I was proud of. And it wasn't necessarily always because of my partner. We had issues that, that, a lot of them stemmed from problems that I had – the trauma that I grew up with in my life. And so, learning how to have a healthy relationship where I could trust that another person had my best interest at heart was something that I wasn't very good at.
And I didn't really realize a lot of that until later. We kind of reached a place in the relationship where things were just not really repairable and the reason why it's hard to detach from these people is because like I said at one point we did love them. We cared about them very very deeply. But if there's one thing that I've learned in this world is and this may sound incredibly selfish, but it's not, is that the only person who is truly truly looking out for you is you. Everybody in this world is selfish in their own way.
They're looking out for what they think is in their best interest. And you need to make sure that if you're in this kind of dynamic with somebody that continues to manipulate you or harms you in some way or the relationship, maybe they aren't manipulating you. Maybe it's just that…how to put it?
Often times, people act in ways, like I said, that they think is in their best interest. And that's not always in our own best interest. And you can't be the best person that you want to be, if you are constantly feeling like being around another person, being around a certain person, sets you off. And even when you try to be Stoic, it can be very, very challenging, just because we don't just have emotions based upon the thoughts that we have, we have all of this unconscious stuff that's been going on and has built up over years and decades.
And so, oftentimes we get into patterns with people that we don't even recognize. And so, how do you detach from them? I think physical distance obviously is something that is, is important if it's a relationship that's not working out for you. And that sometimes can be challenging because you care about this other person.
And they could be a family member, they could be somebody that, you know, you were a partner with. It could be a kid that you, that you helped raise. But making sure that you take care of yourself is the most important thing because that way you can be the best person you can be and then you can be helpful to others.
But if you constantly feel like you are not being your best self and that anytime you're around this other person, you start to behave in a way that isn't good for you. Taking that space can be incredibly important. And if you are in a place where you're around somebody who's toxic for you, then you need to make sure that you do the things you need to, to step away from that.
And that's kind of what setting boundaries is. So in a physical space, you need to step away and set boundaries physically. And that usually means getting away from that person. In a mental space, it means setting boundaries on that. And setting boundaries is very, very challenging, and it often times upsets the status quo of a relationship.
Because you're stepping in and saying, “Hey, you can't treat me like this anymore. This is how I need to be treated. And if you don't…”, then you let the other person know what your response will be. That may be that if you're around them and they start behaving in a certain way and you've asked them not to, that you get up and leave.
But communicating those boundaries is important. And it doesn't mean though, that the other person will follow them. It's just you simply saying, this is how I need to be treated. And if you're not going to treat me this way, then this is the action I'm going to take, all with the assumption that you cannot change them, and they still have the choice to still act that way or not act that way. That's kind of up to them, because they're not something that you can control. I know that was a little bit rambling, but I hope that was helpful to the person who asked that question.
Okay, my last question. How do you use Stoicism in managing a quarter life crisis?
So I'm kind of at the opposite end of that. I'm at my midlife crisis, if you will. But looking back on where I was when I was 25, I was in college. I was just about to, I think I was in my junior year by that point. Maybe my senior year. And, yeah, it would have been my senior year. And, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting time. There's a lot of change going on through that.
Because while you're no longer a teenager, you're not being taken care of by your parents anymore, you are expected to be an adult. You're expected to get out there into the world and to find your way. And that's an incredibly turbulent time. Oftentimes you're getting married at that time or finding a more long term relationship.
You're thinking about possibly having kids in the next few years, if that's something that you want. So Stoicism isn't something that is just you, you know, just applicable in only certain times of life. Stoicism is something that is applicable for all stages of life, and I think that the challenges you're going to be dealing with at that point.
You know, like I said, finding a partner, possibly having kids, getting your first job, or your first important job. Stoicism is there for you in all those situations. So I think if you work on making sure that you practice the basics, that you understand what you can and can't control, will help you dramatically.
And again, the only things you really have control over are the way that you think about things, your perspective, your thoughts, your opinions about things, your judgments, your choices that you make, and the actions that you take. And that's it. And I know that that's a really hard thing for a lot of people because it feels like you have no control in your life.
But I like to think of it in the opposite way. If you only have control over those few things, that only gives you a few things to worry about. It allows you to focus on the things that you can actually do something about and let go of all the rest. So, if you get a job and maybe you don't do your best at it and you end up getting fired, okay, what can you do in that situation?
You can just, you know, you can look at the way that you handled yourself at the last job that you had. You can think if there are things that you might do in the next job you would have. Maybe you, maybe you ruffled some feathers. Maybe you didn't put in the time necessary. Maybe your skills weren't up to par.
So those are all things that you can control. You can control how you interact with your coworkers. You can control your skill set. You can control your expertise on things. Maybe you're in the wrong industry. And maybe that's a time for you to reevaluate that and decide that you want to try something else.
The nice thing is, when you're at that age, it's a lot easier to kind of pick up and try different things. So, my oldest kid is 22 and is trying out different jobs and has had several jobs over the last few years trying to figure out what it is that they want to do. And they may not know for another few years, and that's okay.
They decided that that was the route they wanted to take in their life, and I'm very proud of them. My other kid is going to college, because that's what he wants to do. And he's really pushing forward on that, and he's got two more years to go. And I'm really proud of both of them, and they're on very different paths right now.
But they're both good people, and they're both trying to do the best that they can, and explore this world without fear, and recognizing I did my best to teach them Stoic teachings. Unfortunately, I found them later when they were a little bit older, but talking with them through these things and helping them to understand what it is that they have control over and what it is they don't, I think is one of the most important things.
The next big thing, at your age is that as you grow in your career and you make choices about partners and things like that, is that there's going to be plenty of opportunities for you to do things that maybe aren't the best for you and that maybe aren't the best for the world. So I think recognizing that living according to virtue, you know, are you being wise? Are you being kind? Practicing justice in the way that you treat other people?
Doing the right thing all the time and getting into that habit when you're at that age, rather than allowing yourself to do anything that's questionable in your business or in your relationships. You know, being very honest with your partners, not, not cheating on them, I think would be obviously a great place to start, but trying to be as honest and candid with people as you can, I think is also something that's very helpful rather than hiding behind the facade that you have of how you think you're supposed to be in this world.
Take the time in your twenties to discover who you want to be and be that person unapologetically. Be honest, be not just honest, but practice candor. Meaning don't just say that everything I tell you is true, but everything that I tell you is true and is vulnerable. And learning how to be vulnerable like that takes away a lot of fear because if you can learn to be vulnerable with people who care about you and people around you, then you don't feel like you have anything to hide from other people.
And I think that that's, that's why a lot of people, you know, really respond to other people who are authentic and who don't put up a front of what other people want to see all the time, but work hard to just be exactly who they want to be. And if you're not sure about that, that's okay.
Choose some role models. Find some people that, that you look up to and respect. And figure out what it is that you look up to them for, and what it is that you respect about them. What attributes do they have? How do they handle themselves? I think that's a good way to start to develop your character in your 20s, is making sure that you find good role models and good mentors.
I think that would be my best advice. And there are lots of really amazing people out there in this world. And as divided as the world feels right now, and it feels like everything is chaotic, because in many ways it is. But the world has always been a bit chaotic. It's just now we're much more exposed to it.
And we just have a lot more things going on in our lives. So I think figuring out who you want to be at this time in your life is probably one of the most important things. And Stoicism is a great framework to figure out a lot of those things.
So, this is, like I said, this is the Q& A episode. I don't do these very often. Mostly because they become a little unstructured and that's a bit challenging for me. I would much rather…, there's a safety in having a structure of a regular podcast episode that I write out. But I'm trying to get better about just being able to take ideas and sit down and talk about them with you, like I would talk with a friend. So if this feels a bit rambly, this is me testing some things out and trying to find a different way of doing the podcast in some ways, because I want to make it more personable, I guess. I mean, I think it is pretty personal because I'm pretty open about most things in my life.
But going forward, if there are questions that you would like me to answer in episodes, I would really appreciate it if you would comment on this. This will be on a video on YouTube and some, you know, there'll be clips of it on other social media. And you can find me on those platforms and pop me a question.
I would love to hear if there's anything that I can answer with my 52 years of experience, because I've been through a lot. And I've learned a lot. And I've been really working hard to do what I just gave advice to the 25 year old who's struggling with the quarter life crisis, is figure out the kind of person that you want to be and be that person.
And I wish that I'd had that courage back at that age to really do that because I was really living my life for other people all the time. And that was part of being in the Mormon church, because there's a way that you're supposed to live that people want. you to fulfill all of these specific requirements, and it wasn't really what was going on inside. It was much more about, “did everything look a certain way? Did you check all these boxes?” And I was pretty unhappy and I didn't know how to break free of a lot of that. And it's been a long journey for me to get to this point, but I feel like I'm working hard to be the kind of person that I want to be.
And at this point I, I like who I'm becoming. And it's been really quite a journey. And I'm glad that you out there in podcast land have been along this journey with me for the last six years. So this is episode number 301, and it's still amazes me that it's still going after this amount of time. And that's really because of all of the joy that I've gotten in making this, and all the comments and emails and messages that I get from you guys about how this has helped you. And I, that really touches me and it makes it feel like this work that I'm doing of trying to talk with people about these things is really working. And I'd love to hear it from you guys. I know that probably maybe one or two percent of you actually write me messages, but I would love to hear more.
So find me on social media and let me know what you think. Alright, that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to each other, be kind to yourself, and thanks for listening. I also just want to remind you, like I said before, follow me on social media. If you're watching this on YouTube, go ahead and subscribe to this. You can find me in on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee and TikTok and Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, and YouTube at StoicCoffee.
Do you have close friends? Are you a good friend? In this episode I talk about the importance of friendship and how Stoicism can help you be a better friend.
"Associate with those who will make a better man of you. Welcome those whom you yourself can improve." —Seneca
Hello friends and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. My name is Eric Cloward. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I talk about my experiences, both my successes and my failure, and share my thoughts on Stoicism in the hopes that you can learn something new.
All within the space of a coffee break. Now this week's episode is called The Importance of Friendship From a Stoic Perspective. Now before I get into that, I just want to kind of give you an update on how things have been going for me. I finally got an apartment. It's been nice to be settling in. Things are still a little bit messy, but I'm getting there. It's a pretty nice place in the south of Amsterdam and It's nice to be settled. So thanks for everybody for your comments on my previous episode where I talked about how I got scammed and what I, how challenging that was for me.
And this week's episode is episode number 300, which is pretty exciting. And when I started this podcast, I never thought that I would reach Episode 300, I started the podcast as something to practice making a podcast. And I just happened to talk about stoicism because it was what I was studying at the time. And because so many people listened and wrote in and talked about how much it helped them, that gave me the courage to continue with this process and to really delve into stoicism and make it part of my life.
And I find that the times that I took a break from the podcast, And then coming back to it, I found that doing that really helped me to integrate these principles into my life in a very deep and meaningful way because I was studying them on a weekly and daily basis. So thanks so much for supporting me and thanks for listening to the podcast.
I guess some other news, I've had a, kind of a rough start getting into my apartment. I ended up slicing up my finger, my thumb, and I have four stitches in there, so now they're healing. But, I kind of had to laugh about it because something good that came from that, which is part of what Stoicism teaches, is that, I have been playing guitar, which you can see in the back here, if you're watching the video and was writing a song and there was a chord structure that I couldn't get.
And because I couldn't use my index finger, I had to be creative with how I was practicing guitar and finally figured out the missing chord in the song that I was working on. So sometimes when things don't seem good. They have a blessing in disguise. Anyway, onto this week's episode. So like I said, this week's episode is about the importance of friendship from a stoic perspective.
And part of the reason why I wanted to do this was there were two things that happened recently that I really was impacted by and one of them is I was watching a video and I'm sure plenty of you have seen this. And if not, I will have a link to it down in the, in the show notes on this. But it was an interview of Hugh Jackman and Ryan Reynolds, and they were interviewing each other and they have a very close friendship.
They've been friends for about 20 years now. And for me, what was just. Amazing to watch this video is here are these two superstars. I mean, and watching them talk and help and support each other and the way that they talked about each other and how much fun they have with each other. And they have so much, but they also have their struggles in life.
And they talk about the importance of friendship and why their friendship It means so much to them and how it's enhanced their lives and the things they've learned from each other. And they were also incredibly vulnerable with each other. They tell each other that they love each other and they care. I mean, and these are two guys who are considered, you know, fairly macho and whatnot, but they're not afraid to express their emotions and they're very open about a lot of those things.
And to see how encouraging they were. So, one instance, Ryan talks about how when he first got on the X Men set, and it was the first time he met Hugh, and Hugh ran up to him and gave him this big hug and said, Hey Ryan, it's so good to see you here. And Ryan was just like, you actually know my name. And he talked about how Hugh was such a great example of how to be on a film set, and how to care for not just the people who are going to help your career, but for everybody who is helping to make the film.
And then Hugh talked about how impressed he was with Ryan about talking about his struggles with anxiety and how much support he's given to his fans in dealing with that anxiety. And this is the kind of friendship that I think we all strive for. I mean, we're all not going to be hanging out with superstars like that.
Maybe some of us will, but more than anything, it was really neat to see just two decent human beings and how much they cared about each other and were so supportive of each other. So this week's episode, I want to, like I said, I want to talk about why friendships are important and what we can do to build up some of our friendships using stoic values.
Oh, and I, I forgot the second thing that happened recently. That really made me want to do this episode is I had a friend who is struggling with some things in life and You know said hey, I want to run some things by why don't you swing by my place? And so I went over there the other night, and we just had this really great conversation talking about the things he's struggling with.
And for me, it was really, it was very touching, the fact that he reached out to me, hoping that I would be able to shed some light on some difficult situations where he was trying to wrap his head around, and wasn't being the kind of person he wanted to be. And the fact that he would reach out to me to help him with these struggles meant, meant the world to me.
Because that means that I have somebody who trusts me that much that they can be that vulnerable. And this is somebody that I admire. They have, to me, he seems like he has so much going on and has everything together, but to hear him talk about his struggles and just be that open and honest, just, yeah, it was really touching to me.
And then I got some in return. He was able to help me kind of focus on some of the things that That I struggle with, I'm not the most organized person and I have so many creative ideas and trying to stay focused while I'm trying to, you know, work on becoming a coach and, you know, and writing a book and working on the podcast and some other ideas and things that I'm working on.
And he really kind of helped me break some of those things down because that's where his strength lies. And I think that these two things just really wanted me to dive into this a little bit deeper. So first I want to talk about the idea of. Stoicism and friendship and what it means. So Marcus Aurelius talks about, you know, people exist for the sake of one another, teach them then or bear with them.
And the Stoics were very, very keen on teaching us that connections with other humans and friendship were all very, very important. And they're part of the human condition because we're social animals. We do more, we do better when we work together, when we are together. And it's those connections. with other people that really make life that important.
And the Stoics have this theory of social development. And I learned about this while I was working on my book. And the early, and it's called oikiosis. And the earliest stage of oikiosis is self preservation. And this is something that all living animals have. They have an inclination towards self care and preserving themselves.
And this is the basis of more complex forms of social affection. The next step that they, they defined was rational self interest. And as human beings mature, they begin to use reason to understand their needs more. And start to recognize that their well being is tied to their moral character and their rational choices.
And not merely just to external conditions. They see that they can actually take actions in this world to get their needs met. And the third step in the Stoic's oikiosis is what they call social affection. And this involves extending care beyond just yourself to those who are close to you, such as your family and your friends.
And you recognize that they also have desires for happiness and that you can work together to get your needs met. And that's something that's really important for all of us. And then the next step is what they call moral awareness and universal concern. And this is, it, it's part of the stoic idea of cosmopolitanism, which is rather than just thinking of yourself As part of a family or part of a tribe or maybe part of a city or a country that you are a citizen of the world and that all humans are part of your extended family and that you need to make sure that you step out of yourself and just those around you, and find ways to do good in the world in a much larger way. Again, in that this is part of our human nature to do so.
So the Stoics viewed friendship as an essential component of having a good life. And friendship is a way for us to practice virtue. It's a way for us to practice kindness. It's a way for us to practice courage of being vulnerable and practicing radical candor with our friends and being honest with them about our struggles and being honest with them about some of the things that they're struggling with.
And, the Stoics pulled a lot from the Epicureans, and I like this quote from Epicurus, where he says, It is not so much our friend's help that helps us, as the confident knowledge that they will help us. Sometimes just knowing that you have people supporting you, even if they don't do anything, you know, directly to help you, really just enhances your life.
When you think about all the people around you, and having a good social net and a good social community is just incredibly important to living a good life. So what do the Stoics have for qualities of friendship? What makes a good friendship? Well, obviously, honesty. And I like to, I like to dig a little deeper and put that as candor.
And the idea behind candor is that everything you say is honest. But it is also vulnerable and revealing of some of the things behind what you say. And there's also mutual respect, and of course living in accordance to virtue. And when we are close to people who care for us and who help build us up, then we're able to grow into something better.
And when we return those same things and we try to help them and support them and help build them up as well, then that makes us a better person because we We learn wisdom, we learn, we improve our justice. And again, the idea behind the Stoic virtue of justice is, how do we treat other people? That's incredibly important to the Stoics, which is why it's one of the four cardinal virtues of Stoicism.
And we can see this in the friendship between Seneca and his nephew, Lucilius. They had an ongoing correspondence. And we have those letters today, and they're called the letters of Lucilius. And they talked a lot about philosophy. They just talked a lot about basic things in life. They're very affectionate and intimate with each other in a very kind and generous way.
And we also see this when we look at Marcus Aurelius. Because Marcus Aurelius had a friend named Fronto, one of his mentors. And they wrote back and forth to each other all the time. And even though Fronto didn't really like that Marcus Aurelius was big into philosophy, they were still incredibly close.
And at one point Marcus wrote to him and said, My dear Fronto, I miss you so much. I miss, you know, and I love you as much as I love myself. Because that's how deep their bond was. And this was the emperor of Rome. I mean, he had people around him all the time, but he chose particular people who made him better even if they disagreed with him on a lot of things.
But having friends who can be very different than you and still loving and caring and supporting them is a big part of what makes a good friendship. So as we've talked about before, there are just a lot of practical benefits to friendship. I mean, you have emotional support. You have people who will help you to be resilient when things are hard.
You learn a lot of things from them, such as, you know, maybe where your values are out of alignment. They can point things out when you kind of screw up and you do things that, that maybe aren't the best, but they can do so in a way that you will actually listen and they can help give you advice and guide you into becoming the type of person that you want to be.
And this is another quote from Epictetus I really liked. He said, “He who seeks friendship for favorable occasion strips it of all its nobility,” meaning that if we only have friends when things are good, then we're missing out on the true part of friendship and that reaching out to our friends when things are hard and supporting our friends when things are hard for them, is a big part of what makes a good life. And that we shouldn't just have fair weather friends, but friends who will stick by us through thick and thin.
Another thing to think about is that Marcus Aurelius, in the opening of Meditations, lists off all the people who have been a big influence on his life. And a lot of them are close friends, and people that, Not only who were mentors that he respected, but were people who taught him great things in his life to become the kind of person he wanted to be because he knew he was going to be emperor of Rome and he knew that he needed to develop the character in himself so that he wasn't corrupted by that position.
And he had a lot of people, like I mentioned Fronto before, Rusticus, who was one of his teachers who guided him into Stoic philosophy, but through that you can see that Marcus Aurelius, at the very beginning of meditations, is listing off all the people who helped him and supported him and who he respected – friendship is the first section within meditations. Because it was, it's really that important. And human connection is that important.
So how do we use stoicism to help us cultivate better friendships? I think a lot of things that really help is that you, you seek out people who are trying to help you to be better people. As Seneca said, make sure that you associate with people who will make you better. And that was something that the Stoics found very important, is that we learn through being around other people. We can't just develop virtue in a vacuum. We can't just become a virtuous person by studying these things. We actually have to go out and practice those things.
And one of the best ways is associate with other people and to find friendship. And some of the best things about cultivating good friendships is that you have to practice accepting others for exactly who they are. And that's part of what the Stoics teach us is that we can't control other people. We can be friends with people and care about people who disagree with us.
In fact, they should, at times they should disagree with us because we don't know everything. And so oftentimes having that friend who disagrees with you on something helps to open up your eyes so that you can see things in a new way. You can learn things that you didn't learn before.
The other thing is then you have other people who will accept you for who you are, and that you are allowed to be authentically you. And that's something that is incredibly important because the Stoics talk about How you need to live a life of integrity and be the kind of person that you want to be no matter what and when you can find friends who appreciate that and accept that and support you in that, then it helps you to become a much better person as well.
They can also be there to point out your good qualities when you're having a hard time remembering them. And they can also, like I said, help you find direction when you're not living according to your value.
So I want you to take some time this week and think about how the friendships that you have and think about what kind of friend you're being. Are you being the type of friend who is encouraging others to live a good life and to practice stoic virtues, even if they're not stoics? But that you encourage them to practice, courage, wisdom, justice, and self discipline to help them to become the best people that they can. And finding friends who will help you to do the same because you can't go it alone. We all need other people in this world.
And one of the things that I'm so grateful for since I've moved to Amsterdam are the number of great friends that I've met and people that I know that I can rely on the fact when I was had to go to the hospital to get stitches in my hand the other day, it asked for a family contact or an emergency contact. And since I don't have any family here, they wanted somebody local and my friend who helped me move into my apartment. I was able to put his name down and then I sent him a text saying, Hey, by the way, I put you down as my emergency contact. And he, you know, gave that a big thumbs up and was like, yeah, that's great, man.
And its small things like that just warm my heart because it means that I have a support network here. I have people who care about me and who are looking out for my best interest. And I think that's what we all need in this world, because world's a hard place and having people that, you know, have your back is something that we can all really use in this life.
And that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening. I also wanted to say, if you aren't following me on social media, please do so. You can find me at Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee, and you can find me on TikTok and Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook and YouTube at StoicCoffee.
Do you suffer from imposter syndrome? Do you often feel like you’re just faking your way through life? Today I want to talk about how Stoicism can help you overcome imposter syndrome and live a more authentic life.
“Failure to observe what is in the mind of another has seldom made a man unhappy; but those who do not observe the movements of their own minds must of necessity be unhappy.”
—Marcus Aurelius
We all have times in our lives when we feel like just faking our way through the day. We often have this nagging feeling that we’re “just not good enough”, even when we achieve some success. Imposter syndrome, the persistent feeling of being a fraud despite evident success, is a common struggle among many of us, especially high achievers. Stoic philosophy, with its timeless wisdom, offers profound insights and practical strategies to overcome this debilitating mindset. By applying Stoic principles, we can cultivate a more resilient and confident self-perception.
In my own life, imposter syndrome is something that I’ve struggled with. For example, early on in making this podcast, I often felt like I was an imposter because while I understood a lot of the Stoic principles I was discussing, I didn’t feel like I lived them very well. But one of the things I’ve learned over the last 8 years of studying Stoicism is that the Stoic taught and wrote about these ideas not because they were bragging about how perfect they were, but it was also their way of working through these ideas for themselves. It was their way of reminding themselves of the way that they wanted to live their lives. Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations were his personal thoughts and reminders for himself so that he could work through the challenges in his own life. Creating this podcast has been very much the same. I do it so that I can help others and so that I can constantly work through my own struggles. I’ve joked with friends that this podcast is my “public therapy”.
Understanding Imposter Syndrome
Imposter syndrome manifests itself as a fear of being exposed as incompetent or unworthy, regardless of our achievements or external validation. This fear often leads to anxiety, self-doubt, and a constant sense of inadequacy. By applying the principles of Stoicism, we can develop our own inner strength and equanimity, which can help counter these feelings.
Principle 1: Focus on What You Can Control
One of the core tenets of Stoicism is the dichotomy of control, as articulated by Epictetus in his Enchiridion:
"Some things are up to us and some things are not."
Imposter syndrome thrives on focusing on what we cannot control—other people's opinions, the outcome of our efforts, and external recognition. By shifting our focus to what we can control—our thoughts, actions, and responses—we can reduce anxiety and build confidence. For example, instead of worrying about whether others perceive us as competent, we can concentrate on doing our best work and continuously improving our skills. As Marcus Aurelius reminds us, “It never ceases to amaze me: we all love ourselves more than other people, but care more about their opinion than our own.”
Principle 2: Embrace Your Humanity
Marcus Aurelius, the Roman Emperor and Stoic philosopher, reminds us in his "Meditations":
“Do not be disgusted, discouraged, or dissatisfied if you do not succeed in doing everything according to right principles; but when you have failed, return again, and be content if the greater part of what you do is consistent with man's nature.”
Here Marcus is reminding us of the importance of accepting our imperfections and shortcomings, and focusing on our actions. Imposter syndrome often stems from an unrealistic expectation of perfection. By recognizing that everyone, including ourselves, has flaws and makes mistakes, we can alleviate the pressure to be flawless and instead strive to be our best selves.
Principle 3: Reframe Your Perspective
Stoicism teaches us to reframe our thoughts and perceptions. Seneca, another prominent Stoic philosopher, said:
"We suffer more in imagination than in reality."
The Stoics taught that negative emotions were created from misperceptions or incorrect judgements about an external events and circumstances. When we experience imposter syndrome, we often exaggerate our perceived shortcomings and failures, and get stuck in ruminating on them. Often times, even when do achieve success, we let perfectionism get in the way and look for all the ways that we should have done it better. By practicing cognitive reframing, we can rationally challenge these distorted thoughts and view them more objectively. For instance, instead of thinking, "I don't deserve my success because I cold have done it better,” we can reframe it to, "I have worked hard to achieve my goals, and I continue to learn and grow."
Principle 4: Practice Self-Reflection and Acceptance
Self-reflection is a vital Stoic practice. Marcus Aurelius advises:
"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts."
I think that the biggest creator of imposter syndrome is that often we really don’t know ourselves. We may think things like, “I’m not good enough” or “I’m not worthy enough.” But what does that really mean? Good enough for what? And who decides if we’re worthy enough?
So what keeps us from really getting to know ourselves? Fear. We’re too afraid of looking at the things that we don’t like about ourselves because it’s scary. But until we are willing to face that darker and less likable parts of ourselves, then we’ll be constantly running away from them.
In episode 218 Accept Yourself, I talked about how I had to really take a deep look at why I thought I was not a very good person. I felt like I needed to have validation from my long term partner in order to feel better about myself. When she was upset with me, I felt awful about myself. My sense of self, and my self esteem were so tied up with what I thought she thought about me, that I made us both miserable. We would get into arguments because I would try to change her opinion about me so that I could feel better about myself.
As Marcus Aurelius reminds us, “Things do not touch the soul, for they are external and remain immovable; so our perturbations come only from our inner opinions.” It is the opinion about ourselves that causes us the most distress, and what we think about ourselves is something that we can control.
Regular self-reflection helps us identify irrational beliefs and negative thought patterns that fuel imposter syndrome. By journaling our thoughts and experiences, we can gain clarity and perspective, recognizing our achievements and progress.
One journaling practice that I recommended in episode 218 is to write down everything that you don’t like about yourself, and practice accepting those things about yourself. I know that it may sound counterintuitive, but until you’re willing to face up to negative opinions you hold about yourself, they will continue to drag you down. And to be honest, I think you’ll be surprised at how trivial most of those things really are, and you’ll recognize that most of the things on your list are probably on the lists of those closest to you. But more than anything, it’s a way to be honest with yourself, own up to the things that scare you, and accept yourself for exactly who you are.
Principle 5: Cultivate Inner Resilience
Stoicism emphasizes resilience in the face of adversity. Marcus Aurelius encourages us to build inner strength:
“Remember, too, on every occasion that leads you to vexation to apply this principle: not that this is a misfortune, but that to bear it nobly is good fortune.”
Imposter syndrome can trigger intense emotional responses, but Stoic resilience teaches us to manage these emotions and remain steadfast. By practicing mindfulness and being aware of our own thinking, we are better able to regulate our emotions, and we can respond to self-doubt with calm and rationality, rather than letting it overwhelm us.
When we do suffer setbacks, then we can look for the opportunity that comes from it. How we respond to a failure is place for growth to become something even greater. If everything worked out exactly as we wanted all the time, then life wouldn’t be very interesting. When we have challenges and the risk of failure then it makes it all the more rewarding when we succeed. As Seneca wrote, “A setback has often cleared the way for greater prosperity. Many things have fallen only to rise to more exalted heights.”
Principle 6: Seek Wisdom and Support
The Stoics valued wisdom and learning from others. Seneca wrote:
"Associate with people who are likely to improve you."
Seeking guidance from mentors, colleagues, or trusted friends can provide valuable perspectives and encouragement. Sharing our struggles with imposter syndrome can also help us realize that we are not alone and that others have faced and overcome similar challenges. Also, by understanding that you don’t have to be perfect, and accepting the areas where you are weak gives you insight into knowing when to ask for help.
Principle 7: Live with Integrity
Living according to our values and principles is a cornerstone of Stoic philosophy. Marcus Aurelius urges us:
"If it is not right, do not do it; if it is not true, do not say it."
By aligning our actions with our values, we can develop a sense of integrity and authenticity. This alignment helps us build self-respect and reduces the likelihood of feeling like an imposter. When we act in accordance with our principles, we can take pride in our efforts and trust in our capabilities.
Conclusion
Imposter syndrome is a pervasive issue that can undermine our confidence and well-being. However, by applying Stoic principles, we can cultivate a more resilient and grounded mindset. Focusing on what we can control, embracing our humanity, reframing our perspectives, practicing self-reflection, cultivating inner resilience, seeking wisdom and support, and living with integrity are powerful strategies to overcome imposter syndrome. By integrating these Stoic teachings into our daily lives, we can navigate challenges with greater confidence and grace, ultimately leading a more fulfilling and authentic life.
Do you struggle because you can’t handle when things don’t go according to plan? Today I want to talk about how having a plan is important, but having an inner compass to guide you can help you be more adaptable, make decisions under uncertainty, and forge a path when things don’t work out as planned.
“What then can guide a man? One thing and only one, philosophy. But this consists in keeping the soul within a man free from violence and unharmed, superior to pains and pleasures, doing nothing without a purpose, nor yet falsely and with hypocrisy.”
—Marcus Aurelius
A while back, I was reading Mark Tuitert’s book The Stoic Mindset and getting ready to interview him for my podcast. There is a line in the book that I really liked: "A map is good. A compass is better.” It was one of those lines that jumped out and made me stop and think for a minute. The more I thought I about it, the more it made realize that this is why Stoicism is so powerful. It’s not just a set of steps that you follow to happiness, but a set of principles and tools that help us deal with challenges in all situations in life.
Now don’t get me wrong. There’s nothing wrong with creating a plan or a map to help us accomplish what we want. We need to know where we going or what we’re trying to accomplish, and not thinking through the best way to get there is well, foolish. But a map can only get us so far.
The Inner Compass
Stoicism teaches the importance of focusing on what is within our control. As Epictetus stated, "Some things are in our control and others not." This fundamental distinction underpins why we should prefer a compass over a map. Maps detail external environments and plans, and are only as useful as the accuracy and permanence of their content, which are outside our control and prone to change. In contrast, when we are guided by our inner compass of virtues such as wisdom, justice, courage, and moderation, we remain steadfast regardless of external conditions.
Marcus Aurelius, a Stoic emperor, relied heavily on this internal compass. His writings in Meditations serve not as a map of his empire, but as reflections on how to maintain his composure, virtue, and rational judgment amidst the chaos of life and governing. For instance, he advises, "Waste no more time arguing about what a good man should be. Be one."
Practicality and Adaptability
The Stoics valued adaptability, a trait inherent in the use of a compass. As Seneca wrote, "Fate leads the willing and drags along the reluctant," teaching us that those guided by their internal virtues can navigate life's unpredictability with greater ease and grace. When maps fail—when plans go awry due to unexpected events—it is the compass that provides the means to recalibrate and forge a new path.
This adaptability is particularly relevant today, where our careers and personal lives are often subject to rapid and unpredictable changes. The Stoic practice of premeditatio malorum, which involves visualizing potential adversities, prepares us to use our inner compass in any situation, helping us to be resilient and giving us the ability to thrive under changing and difficult circumstances. By focusing on the things you can control, you reduce the impact that external circumstances and events have on you.
In my own life, I’ve come to realize that the plan that I was taught as a child of what it meant to have a good life was like many others. Graduate from high school, get a college degree, find a job, get married, buy a house, have a few kids, and work towards retirement. If I measured my success in life by this map, then I have failed pretty dramatically. The plan that I had for my life has turned out far different than what I expected, and has been far harder and more rewarding than what I could have imagined.
Even in the last few months in upending my life and moving to Amsterdam and changing careers, nothing has gone exactly to plan. I was hoping to find a place to settle in after a few months, but even now I’m dealing with the challenges with grace, having lived in 4 different places in 4 months. There are times when I feel anxious about my career change into leadership coaching and wonder how I’m going to be as successful as I want. But through it all, I’ve leaned heavily into my Stoic principles to help me navigate through the setbacks by recognizing that all of these challenges are opportunities to grow. I’m learning to be patient and pushing forward each time something doesn’t come through. I’ve been reaching out to others for help and guidance and I’m finding other opportunities that I couldn’t have even dreamed of.
Developing Your Inner Compass
So how does developing virtues like wisdom, courage, justice, and discipline help you navigate when your map fails? Think of a map as the outline of what you’re trying to do. Maybe this is a personal goal, such as getting back into shape or starting your own company. Maybe it’s a career goal you’re working on such as completing a project or learning a new skill. Having a roadmap is essential for knowing where you’re going and some idea of how to get there.
But what happens when things don’t go according to plan? Do you give up because your map of how to get there wasn’t exactly right? By applying the virtues of Stoicism as your compass you’re able to calmly evaluate what went wrong, come up with alternatives, and keep going. If you miss some days in your workout due to illness or injury, you take time and recover properly and get back to it as soon as possible. If you miss a deadline or run into a seemingly insurmountable problem at work, you take a step back, evaluate where you are, come up with other solutions to work around the roadblocks in your way.
Let’s take the example of Zeno of Citium, the founder of Stoicism. Zeno was a merchant who lost everything when he survived a shipwreck and ended up in Athens. He wasn’t sure what his next steps were, so he spent time at a local bookshop where he stumbled on the biography of Socrates by Xenophon. He was so taken with the character and description of Socrates that he found a teacher and threw himself into studying philosophy, and later developed Stoicism based on what he learned from his studies. Rather than bemoaning his loss, he adapted and found a new and more fulfilling direction in his life. He later reflected, “I made a prosperous voyage when I was shipwrecked.”
Inner Compass and Decision Making
Another important aspect about developing an inner compass of virtue is that it helps you make decisions about how you do things. Maybe the path your on brings up choices that would have you do things that aren’t ethical or legal in order to reach your goals. If you have developed a strong moral compass, you face up to and take responsibility for your behavior and actions. You don’t have to debate whether or not you should take questionable actions. You do the right thing even at the cost of your career because you’d rather maintain the integrity of your character than compromise your principles. As Marcus Aurelius wrote, “It can only harm you if it harms your character.”
Benefit to Society
For Stoics, the moral compass does not merely direct personal choices; it also aligns with universal ethical principles. Standing up for your principles is not always an easy thing to do, but doing so not only benefits you, it can benefit society as a whole. Nelson Mandela spent 27 years in captivity, only to forgive his captors and work for peace upon his release. When he finished his time as president, he left office and ensured a peaceful transfer of power rather than trying to stay in office. He recognized that his example of how government should operate was far more important than his own enrichment or glory.
Conclusion
Through the Stoic lens, an inner compass proves superior to a map. While the map—our plans and external knowledge—can inform us and offer a possible path, it is the compass—our internal virtues and moral judgment—that truly guides us to live not just successful, but virtuous lives. As we navigate the complex landscapes of modern existence, nurturing our internal compass becomes essential, ensuring that we remain steadfast in our principles and adaptable in our methods. When the maps and plans that we have for our lives fail us, having a strong inner compass gives us the resilience to navigate the detours, and to do so with patience and courage.
Do you ask questions? And what I mean by that is, do you go into conversation or arguments thinking you already know everything? Today I want to talk about the importance of staying curious and how to ask useful questions.
“He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that.”
—John Stuart Mill
Far too often we think that we know everything about a situation and forget to approach things in a way that could be useful. We decide that we know the answer and we spend our time trying to convince the other person that we have the right answer and they should agree with us.
Now it is possible that we have right answer. Maybe we’re an expert in a certain domain, and we really do know what we’re talking about. But time and again it’s been shown that good communication is not just about stating the facts confidently and expecting them to be accepted.
The Importance of Asking Questions
When we take the time to ask questions, then we start to understand how others think. In doing so we might actually be able to clarify what they might not understand. We’re also able to gain insight into their biases and preexisting beliefs, which color their perspectives. It can also help us to see our own biases and beliefs and how they might be coloring our own perspectives.
Asking questions shows that we’re interested in trying to understand the other person and want to have a real conversation with them, rather than just trying to talk to or at them. Also, by showing interest in others we show that what they have to say matters, even if we disagree with them.
Marcus Aurelius reminds us to, “Accustom yourself not to be disregarding of what someone else has to say: as far as possible enter into the mind of the speaker.” By trying to put ourselves in the other person’s shoes, and see things from their perspective, we gain a better insight into how they view the world.
The Stoic Approach to Questions
The Stoics teach that in order to live a good life, we need to live a life according to virtue. One of the cardinal virtues of Stoicism is wisdom. Now wisdom is not just knowledge, but how to apply knowledge into practical experience, and they way that we gain wisdom is to be curious and always be willing to change our opinions.
The Stoics even teach us to question ourselves constantly and to never take something at face value. We can see this from the Stoics concept of impressions and assent. When we perceive something, we are exposed to an impression. Once we have agreed that what we perceived is accurate, then we assent or agree to it. But taking the time to question ourselves, we can get better at recognizing our own logical missteps, and be more forgiving of others when they fall into the same traps. As Marcus Aurelius reminded himself, "Question your assumptions."
Indifferents
Nothing is more frustrating than having a conversation with someone that is trying to change your opinion on something. One tool that be can useful when having conversations with others is to remember the Stoic idea of indifferents. This means that anything outside of your will, meaning your thoughts, choices, and actions is outside of your control. The most important thing outside of your control is what others think, say, or do, so the less you try to control other people, the more likely you are to have a good conversation with them.
By remembering that you don’t have control over another persons opinion, you stop trying to control the conversation and the other person. And when you think about it, why does it matter what someone else thinks? Why is it important that they agree with you?
One of the things that I’ve worked on in my life is not worrying about if others agree with me. When I was younger, I would often get into arguments with people I cared about because I needed that validation. I needed them to agree with me because if they didn’t, I felt like there was something wrong with me. If I believed I had the right answer or opinion on something and they didn’t adopt the same opinion, I took it as a personal rejection. It took me a long time to understand that people can think differently than me, and they can still love me.
Benefits of Asking Better Questions
Better Connections
Asking questions can strengthen relationships by showing interest and respect for others' perspectives. It shows them that you are truly interested in them, and not just trying to convince them the rightness of your opinion. Even if at the end of it you agree to disagree, at the very least you’ll have deeper understanding of the other persons point of view, and shown respect in trying to understand why they have their perspective.
Better Decision Making
When you ask more questions, you improve your ability to make decisions. Thorough questioning leads to better-informed decisions, reducing errors from assumptions. You may be the smartest person in the room, but you still can’t know everything. Taking the time to truly understand something increases your own wisdom. In short, you might be misinformed or lack some crucial piece of knowledge. Being humble and asking questions is way to not only gain knowledge but sharpen your wisdom.
John Stuart Mill, a British philosopher and economist summed it up nicely, writing, “He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion.”
Increased Self-Awareness
Questions lead to introspection, aiding in personal growth and alignment with your values. When you have a good conversation with someone, you’re not only examining the other persons thinking process, you’re working through your own, which can help you to see faults and biases in your own way of thinking. As Epictetus taught, “It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows”.
How to Ask Better Questions
First off, be honest with your questions. If you’re going into a conversation or argument simply to prove the other person wrong, you’re not going to make any headway. Being combative, such as just being contrarian and just taking the opposite perspective just to score points isn’t going to do either of you any good.
Next, as open-ended questions that provoke thought rather than those that elicit yes/no answers. You’re trying to understand their perspective, and yes/no questions don’t give you any context or insight to why they think the way they do.
When the person responds, practice active listening, which means listening to understand, not to respond. If you’re focusing on what you’re going to say next you’re going to miss some key information, and you’re simply showing that you’re not real interested in what the other person has to say.
Another important thing is to do so at the appropriate time and context. If you’re having a difficult conversation with someone, make sure it works for both of you. If either of your are tired or not in a good headspace, it may not be the best time for a deep dive into a difficult topic. Also, the other person has to be open to it. Sometimes people don’t want to have their opinions and perspectives questioned. So, be smart, and be kind, and let it go if it’s not the right time and place.
Lastly, use follow-up questions. Follow-up questions show active engagement and help dig deeper into issues. If someone answers your questions, go deeper to be sure that you clearly understand their answer. I’ve often found some pretty big flaws in my own thinking because someone asked me a question to dig a little deeper.
Practical Examples and Techniques
One of the greatest examples from philosophy about how to ask questions is Socrates. Socrates’ way of teaching was mostly to ask questions, and let his students and others he was speaking with come up with their own conclusions. He also entered the conversations humbly, and almost as more of a facilitator rather than an expert.
One of my favorite examples of this is in Plato’s Latches, where Socrates and other discuss why bravery is. First he enters the conversation with humility and honesty, stating: “Well, Lysimachus, I shall try to advise you about this matter as best I can, and what is more, I shall also do everything else you are asking me to do. However, since I am younger than anyone else here, and less experienced than they are, I think that what is most fitting is that I first listen to what they say and learn from them. Then, if I have anything to add to what they say, I should provide instruction at that stage, and try to convince yourself and these men too.”
As the dialogue progresses, a definition of bravery is put forth as someone who is willing to stay and fight at his post when the enemy is advancing. Socrates then clarifies that he is looking for a definition for bravery that could be applied to all military situations. A second definition is put forward that courage is "a certain perseverance of the soul”. Socrates then asks if a solider was fighting while retreating would not also be brave, if retreating was the more prudent thing to do? Laches, one the participants in the discussion, concedes that a retreating solider could also be considered to be brave in some circumstances.
Now, I’m not going to go on with the rest of the dialog because it is rather lengthy, but the point is that Socrates, rather simply stating an opinion on what it means to be brave, was willing to ask questions, and ask for clarifications. He also was humble and came into the conversation with an honest perspective of trying to understand the topic. As Epictetus teaches us, “If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid.”
In my own life, I often used to dominate conversations with my opinions and knowledge, to the point where I would often annoy people because the conversation was all about me. I wasn’t necessarily rude, but other people didn’t feel like they were part of the conversation because I was too busy talking. Much of this was due to my own insecurities and wanting others to like me because of the stuff that new. The way that I helped break myself of this habit was to write the number 3 on my wrist to remind myself to ask 3 questions to anyone I was talking to. This helped me to be more aware of how much I was talking and to include others in the conversation.
Conclusion
Asking better questions, and actually listening to the answers is an important aspect of creating clear and helpful communication with others. It shows that we care about them, and are willing to try and understand them, even if we disagree with them. We can also keep in mind that the Stoic teach us to remember that other peoples opinions are not something that we can have control over, which helps us to not worry about trying to change their opinions, fostering a more inviting environment for others to share their honest opinions without judgment, building stronger connections and more understanding with those we care about.
This week'e episode is a bit different. Usually I write up my episodes so I dig deep and give you something really helpful. This week, it's just me and the mic talking about how sometimes people act in ways that are frustrating. They lie, cheat, even steal from you. I talk about how I'm dealing with that in my life at the moment and how I'm using Stoicism to act with integrity, and not let someone else control how I behave, or how I feel.
Does it often feel like leaders, both in our work places and in politics, seem to be lacking? Have you ever had the good fortune of working with a great leader? Today I want to talk about the leadership style of Marcus Aurelius, and what we can learn from one of the greatest and most principled leaders of all time.
"What we do now echoes in eternity."
—Marcus Aurelius
In an era defined by rapid technological advancement, environmental crises, and global interconnectedness, Marcus Aurelius' Stoic principles offer a grounding force. The challenges faced by leaders today may seem worlds apart from those of a Roman emperor, yet the essence of leadership—guiding others through uncertainty, making tough decisions with moral courage, and inspiring collective action towards a common goal—remains unchanged. Marcus, who led Rome from 161 to 180 AD, was not just an emperor in title but a philosopher in practice, embodying the Stoic ideals in his reign and personal writings.
From a young age, Marcus Aurelius was a serious student of philosophy. Being from an aristocratic family, he was schooled at home from a number of notable teachers. Diognetus, a painting master, was very influential on young Marcus, and apparently introduced him to philosophy. At the urging of Diognetus, Marcus took on the sparse dress of a philosopher and slept on the floor until his mother convinced him to at least sleep on a simple bed. It was from this early introduction to philosophy that Marcus developed his moral center, which would guide him through the challenges of being the most powerful man in the world.
Marcus Aurelius navigated his empire through war, plague, and the complexities of ancient politics with a leadership style rooted in Stoicism, with an emphasis on rationality, virtue, and emotional resilience. His personal writings in "Meditations," provide a window into his soul and a blueprint for effective leadership that is still relevant today.
Lead with Virtue and Integrity
"Waste no more time arguing what a good man should be. Be one."
—Marcus Aurelius
Marcus Aurelius believed that the cornerstone of effective leadership was personal virtue and integrity. For him, a leader's primary duty was to be morally upright and just, and to ensure the welfare of those he governed. In keeping with Stoic teachings, Marcus felt that one should develop good character in order to be a just leader. By developing the Stoic virtues of wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance a leader was more likely to make choices for the greater good, and avoid the temptations of self enrichment and excess that often befell those who had ruled with so much power.
Leaders should lead by example. Those who walk the walk, not just talk the talk, are respected for their character. Their example cultivates a culture of trust and respect by demonstrating the values they wish to instill in their organizations, such as honesty, responsibility, and compassion. In case after case, when there is corruption within an organization, it is often due a culture that is permissive of cutting corners and questionable business practices which emanates from the example of those in positions of power. Organizations with a culture of high standards and where ethical leadership is the norm, practices like this are quickly rooted out or are never considered in the first place.
Emotional Resilience
“You have power over your mind, not external events. Realize this and you will find strength.”
—Marcus Aurelius
The Stoic emperor taught that we cannot control external events, only our reactions to them. He faced adversity with a calm demeanor and a clear mind, embodying the Stoic ideal of equanimity. Stoicism teaches the value of emotional control in facing life's challenges. Marcus Aurelius exemplified this through his calm demeanor amidst the trials of his reign, including military invasions, the plague, political betrayals, and the deaths of several of his children. His approach underscores the importance of emotional intelligence—maintaining composure in crisis, managing stress, and making decisions unclouded by panic or passion.
A Stoic leader focuses on their actions and reactions, understanding that external events are often beyond their control. This means concentrating on personal effort, ethics, and how one responds to challenges, rather than fretting over outcomes. Good leaders invest their energy wisely, focusing on actionable steps and maintaining integrity in their endeavors.
Throughout my long career in IT, I have seen leaders of all stripes. For me, the ones that were least effective and the least respected were those that were unable to maintain control of their emotions. Leadership is often stressful and most plans never go off without setbacks or issues. A leader who cannot manage themself, will not be able to effectively manage others. Being able to take things in stride and bring a team together to solve them is the hallmark of a good leader.
Leadership as Service
“What is not good for the swarm is not good for the bee.”
—Marcus Aurelius
Marcus Aurelius saw leadership not as a path to power but as a form of service to the greater good. "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane," he remarked, highlighting the leader's duty to pursue justice and the common good over popularity or personal gain. For Marcus Aurelius, leadership was not an avenue for glory or domination but a means to serve and uplift others. He saw himself as part of a larger whole, emphasizing the importance of working for the common benefit.
Leaders whose main focus is on serving those around them are able to rally their employees and supporters around their vision, and inspire them to work together to achieve great things. When people feel supported, they are willing to go above and beyond in supporting their leaders in return.
In my own experience I have had the good fortune to have a few examples of excellent service oriented leaders. Early in my career I was working for a large logistics company and a new team was put in place to support and develop its financial applications. The manager of this team, Krishna, was a very kind and compassionate leader who was adept at supporting his team.
In our first team meeting he said, “My job is to serve you and to get anything that is blocking your work out of the way. If you need anything, like better hardware or software, or if others are asking for your time on things that are out of scope or not part of the project, please let me know so I can take care of it. My job is to help you do your job.” This was the first time I’d ever heard a leader speak this way, and over the next year and half, he proved that he was as good as his word, and we had the highest performing team in the company. His example made an impression on me that I still remember over 20 years later.
Openness to Criticism
“If anyone can refute me‚ show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective‚ I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after.”
—Marcus Aurelius
Far too often we see those in power, whether in politics or at work, are not open to anything that might put them in a bad light. With brittle egos, they worry more about what others think rather than examining what is being said to see if there is any truth in it. Not being open to criticism, they create an environment where those who point out their flaws are punished. Marcus Aurelius teaches us that rather than complaining about or shutting down criticism leveled against us, we should welcome it and see if we can find any truth in it so that we can expand our awareness of ourselves.
A leader who is able to look at criticism objectively and put their egos aside, is better able to examine themself from a different perspective. Since we are only able to view the world from our own perspective, having other perspectives can help us find the chinks in our armor, and to consider ideas that we never would have come up with on our own.
Cultivate Self-Awareness
A key takeaway from Marcus Arelius’ "Meditations" is the practice of regular self-reflection. Marcus Aurelius constantly questioned his actions, motives, and emotions, striving for self-improvement, a habit that enabled him to lead with wisdom and humility. Through his own thoughtful writings and seeking out the input of trusted mentors, Marcus was very aware of his shortcomings. This awareness and a commitment to growth allowed him to serve his subjects well, and become known as one of the greatest emperors of the Roman Empire.
We all have weaknesses and failings, and as a leader these are often more on display. Leaders who have the self awareness and the courage to grow are more likely to own up to and take responsibility for their mistakes. This leads to more trust with those under their stewardship, and helps create a culture of responsibility where mistakes, rather than being something to cover up, are opportunities to improve.
Obstacles as Opportunities
The Stoic view of obstacles as opportunities for growth is particularly relevant in today's fast-paced and often unpredictable world. Leaders can reframe challenges as chances to innovate, learn, and strengthen their teams, just as Marcus Aurelius turned the trials of his reign into lessons in resilience and virtue.
Marcus Aurelius himself faced numerous challenges without losing his philosophical center. Modern leaders can apply this mindset by viewing difficulties as chances to innovate, strengthen teamwork, and develop resilience. It’s about leveraging the inherent lessons in every setback to build a more robust, adaptable leadership approach.
Conclusion
Marcus Aurelius’ reign and writings offer timeless insights into the art of leadership. His Stoic philosophy, with its emphasis on virtue, reason, and the common good, provides a profound framework for leading in any era. His example teaches us that effective leadership is not about the position of power one holds but about the strength of one’s character. By embodying virtues of integrity, resilience, and service, leaders can navigate the complexities of the modern world with wisdom and grace, inspiring those around them to do the same. In a sense, to lead like a Stoic emperor is to recognize that the true realm over which we govern is not the external world but the internal one—from which all true leadership emanates.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
Does the world seem more divided and angry? Does it feel like it’s hard to trust others in our society? Today I want to talk about how the small things we do can have a bigger impact than you think.
"Kindness is mankind's greatest delight."
— Marcus Aurelius
Often times we get stuck in thinking that the world is a mess. Since our minds are attuned to spotting negative things so it can keep up safe, watching the news or seeing what’s happening in our feeds on social media can easily make the world seem pretty grim. If we’re not careful it’s easy to become anxious and pessimistic about humanity.
The significance of small acts of kindness stands as a beacon, illuminating the path toward a more compassionate society. Today I want to explore how seemingly insignificant gestures acquire profound importance, offering a roadmap for individual and collective betterment, and how small actions can impact others, ourselves, and society as a whole.
The Stoic Foundation of Kindness
"You cannot do a kindness too soon, for you never know how soon it will be too late."
— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Stoicism emphasizes virtue, wisdom, and the pursuit of the common good as the foundations of a fulfilled life. Marcus Aurelius, once penned, "What is not good for the swarm is not good for the bee”, underscoring the Stoic belief in the interconnectedness of all individuals and the importance of contributing positively to the community. In the context of kindness, Stoicism posits that even the smallest gestures of goodwill ripple through the social fabric, benefiting the whole.
Humanities greatest strength is that we can work together to accomplish amazing things. While many attribute our intellect as the reason that we have come to dominate the world, it’s out ability to work together in large groups that is truly our defining characteristic.
The Power of Small Acts
The other day I stumbled down a rabbit hole on Quora about small acts of kindness. As I read through each of the posts of seemingly small acts, I found myself tearing up and smiling at the generosity of strangers, often in situations where they didn’t need to be. From buying some hungry teenagers a box of tacos at Taco Bell, to paying for gas for an elderly woman who only had $3 in change, to a former math teacher on the subway helping a father relearn fractions so he in turn could help his son who was struggling in school, the kindness of strangers is alive and well.
Trust is a the glue that builds strong communities. Since most of us live in cities and larger communities, it’s not possible to know everyone, so we need to be able to trust others. Small acts of kindness are manifestations of our inherent capacity for empathy and compassion. These small acts, where you show kindness in situation where you don’t need to, increase trust in society. Where there is more trust, we feel safer, and our outlook on the world improves. Such gestures may seem trivial, yet their cumulative effect can transform communities and, by extension, societies.
Everyday Kindness
"Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless."
— Mother Teresa
Stoicism teaches us to focus on what is within our control—our actions and attitudes. Acts of kindness, no matter how small, are within everyone's grasp. Epictetus remarked, "It is not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters,” which means that we choose how we want to interact with the world. By consciously deciding to perform acts of kindness, we assert control over our lives and contribute in positive way by helping others where we may have nothing to gain.
The Impact on the Giver and the Receiver
“Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for a kindness."
— Seneca
From a Stoic viewpoint, the benefits of kindness are twofold: they enhance the well-being of the receiver and enrich the character of the giver. We become better people by practicing kindness. Because practicing kindness is a choice, it is an exercise of will to find moments where we can be kind, and to step up and take action rather than just going on about our day. Stoicism encourages us to seek out opportunities for kindness as a means of self-improvement and as a way to contribute to the greater good.
One of the most interesting things that I’ve learned in this life is that when you learn to be kind to others and less selfish, you are happier overall. Usually people are selfish because they feel like they are not getting something they think they deserve or need in order to be happy. I know for me when I was younger I was definitely a more selfish person and this was certainly the case. Practicing small acts of kindness helps you to overcome your selfish tendencies. You do good things to others not because they deserve them or because you’re expecting anything in return, but because you want to give them.
The Neuroscience of Kindness
"No act of kindness, no matter how small, is ever wasted."
— Aesop
Modern neuroscience supports the Stoic perspective on kindness, showing that acts of generosity and compassion activate parts of the brain associated with pleasure, social connection, and trust. These findings suggest that kindness is not just morally commendable but also beneficial to our psychological and physical health.
There have been plenty of studies that also show the fastest way to improve our own sense of wellbeing is to do something kind for someone else. We actually get a small burst of dopamine when we do something kind, even if it is a small act. If you’re feeling a little down, doing something kind for someone else is a simple yet effective way to improve your mood.
Kindness in Action
“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle."
— Epictetus
The world abounds with instances where small acts of kindness have led to significant impacts. Consider when Princess Diana shook the hand of a man with AIDS. At the time, there was a lot of misinformation about AIDS, and her simple act of kindness help to change the view of the world towards those who had contacted the disease. Or the chain reaction set off by a single act of kindness in a coffee shop in Pennsylvania, where patrons paid for the orders of those behind them for hours. Minor gestures can inspire, motivate, and spread joy beyond their immediate context.
In my own life, I’m currently living in Airbnbs in Amsterdam until I find a permanent place. A few weeks ago, I had a short trip scheduled for Berlin and didn’t want to take all of my stuff with me, and there was no way that I would be able to take my bike with me. The host at one of my Airbnbs was kind enough to let me leave some of my stuff and my bike at his place while I was away. It wasn’t a big deal for him since he had plenty of storage space, but for me it was incredibly helpful to not have to find somewhere to store everything while I was away.
Cultivating Kindness
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible."
— The Dalai Lama
So how can we get better about showing more kindness in our lives?
Incorporating kindness into daily life does not require grand gestures. It begins with a conscious effort to recognize the humanity in others and to act on this recognition in even the smallest ways. This could be as simple as listening attentively, offering a word of encouragement, or expressing gratitude.
To get better at practicing kindness in out lives, we need to become more aware. It’s far too easy to go about our day focused on just ourselves and not engage with others. By working to cultivate an attitude of kindness, you can develop an awareness of how you show up in the world and look for small ways to practice kindness. Whether that’s opening the door for someone else, buying a coffee for a stranger, or giving a stranger a compliment, we can all do small things to make others lives just little easier.
Another exercise you can do is to practice reflective journaling. Each day, take some time reflect on acts of kindness you observed, received, or performed. This practice, rooted in Stoic reflection, encourages mindfulness of kindness as a daily practice by keeping it top of mind.
Sometimes the best thing you can do is to take the time to just listen to someone else. There’s a lot of loneliness out in the world. Because we spend so much time online, we often forget to connect with others in real life. Make a conscious effort to listen more attentively to others can help them feel seen and connected and I think that we could all do with a little more of that.
Speaking of being online, practicing kindness in this world does not stop when you’re on your phone. When you’re online and you feel tempted to post a snarky or rude comment on someones post, take the time to think about how this might impact others. Does it help or hurt them? What would this say about you? Take the time to find a way to lift others and you’ll find yourself in a better mood knowing that you made an active choice to do good in the world.
Conclusion
In a world that often emphasizes the grandiose, it is the small, everyday acts of kindness that weave the fabric of a compassionate society. The cumulative effect of widespread acts of kindness can lead to a more empathetic and cohesive society. By fostering an environment where kindness is valued and practiced, we can counteract divisiveness and isolation, creating communities that thrive on mutual support and understanding.
In the spirit of Stoicism, small acts of kindness are not merely altruistic gestures but a fundamental component of a virtuous life. They serve as a testament to our capacity for goodness and our potential to effect change in the world around us. As Marcus Aurelius reminded us, "The best way to avenge yourself is to not be like that." By choosing kindness, we rebel against cynicism and apathy, embracing a philosophy that nurtures our collective humanity.
Are you aware of how your perspective influences how you see reality? Today I want to talk about how the Stoics teach us that our perspective shapes our reality.
“We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
— Anias Nin
Perception and Reality
Our reality is not an objective construct; it is a subjective experience shaped by our individual perceptions. These perceptions are the lens through which we view the world, influenced by our beliefs, past experiences, and emotional states. This lens filters every experience, interaction, and decision we make, often without our conscious awareness. Our perceptions profoundly shape our reality, molding our experiences, choices, and interactions with the world. Stoicism holds that our perceptions—how we see the world—play a critical role in our emotional and psychological state.
The Plank
“For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
— Shakespeare (Hamlet)
The other day I stumbled on a perfect example of how our perceptions can impact us in a very literal way. There’s an interesting bunch of videos on YouTube about Richie’s Plank Experience. What this is, is a simple VR game where you take an elevator to the 15th floor of a virtual building. Once the elevator opens, you step out onto a plank that is about 12 inches wide, which is about 30 centimeters for those not in the US. The goal of the game is pretty simple. You walk out to the end of the plank and eat some virtual donuts. Then you can either jump off and fall to the ground, or turn around and go back to the elevator.
There are several videos of this on YouTube, but the one that I watched, took place on the streets of London where they asked passersby to try the game. What was fascinating was that even though people knew they were safe on a street in the middle of London, they still felt the same fear as if they were actually on a plank 15 stories high. Each person talked about how scary it was, how their hearts were racing, and one person even had his legs shaking with fear. There was one person though, who was able to override this fear better than the others, and was even skipping across the plank.
I found this so fascinating. Even though they rationally knew it was just a game, most of them couldn’t get their bodies to relax. They still felt like they were in danger. In a very literal sense, they put on a new lens that changed their perception of the world, and their unconscious and their bodies reacted to these perceptions.
Influencing Opinions
"It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see."
— Henry David Thoreau
Our opinions are a direct outcome of our perceptions. For instance, two individuals can witness the same event and have entirely different interpretations based on their personal biases and past experiences. For example, in politics, where perceptions are heavily influenced by ideology, this leads to divergent opinions on the same issues. A conservative might view a tax increase as a burden on economic freedom, while a liberal might see it as a necessary step towards social equity. Here, their political ideologies, acting as a perceptual lens, shape their opinions of the same policy proposal.
Shaping Choices
Our choices, from the mundane to the life-changing, are also deeply influenced by our perceptions. Consider the decision to change careers. To someone with a growth mindset—a belief in the potential for personal development and improvement—a career change is an opportunity for advancement and learning. To someone with a fixed mindset, the same decision might seem fraught with risk and uncertainty, and as a sign of failure in their current path. The Stoics would argue that by shifting our perception to see the opportunity in the challenge, we can make choices that align with our true values and aspirations.
Interactions with the World
"Mankind are born for the sake of each other. So either teach or tolerate."
— Marcus Aurelius
How we interact with the world and others is a reflection of our internal perceptions. For example, if we perceive the world as hostile and uncaring, we may approach others with suspicion and reserve, potentially leading to isolation and loneliness. Conversely, viewing the world as a place of opportunity and kindness can lead us to form meaningful connections and engage with life more fully. Marcus Aurelius, another Stoic philosopher, emphasized the importance of perceiving the interconnectedness of all things and acting in harmony with this understanding for the betterment of oneself and society.
The Placebo Effect
“We are more often frightened than hurt; and we suffer more from imagination than from reality."
— Seneca
Our minds are powerful things and our perceptions of something can have real impacts in surprising ways. For example, the placebo effect is a powerful demonstration of how perception can alter our physical reality. Patients given a placebo, a treatment with no therapeutic effect, often experience an improvement in their condition simply because they believe they are receiving a real treatment. In many studies, patients were given were sugar pills and found relief from their symptoms. This phenomenon illustrates the capacity of the mind, guided by perception, to influence the body.
Social Media and Perception
Social media platforms are modern examples of how perceptions can be manipulated and, in turn, shape reality. Algorithms curate content that aligns with our existing beliefs and perceptions, reinforcing our worldviews and often creating echo chambers. This can intensify political polarization, as users are rarely exposed to opposing viewpoints, leading to a more divided reality based on perceived differences rather than actual ones. Because social media is also only selected slices of life, we only see what others are willing to share, which are usually just the highlights. We get a distorted view of who other people are, and what their lives are really like. Because of this, we make judgments about them based on very limited information.
Awareness of Perceptions
"Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them."
—Epictetus
So why do we want to be aware of the perceptions that we have about the world around us?
Because those perceptions can either be the wind our sails that propel us forward to accomplish the things we set out to do, or they can be the millstone that keeps us not only stuck where we are, but often are the very thing that sink our ship even before it gets out of the harbor. The Stoics teach us that our perceptions are one of the only things that we have control over, and therefore can have the largest impact on our wellbeing and happiness.
By developing the awareness of the perceptions we have, we are able to recognize our own limiting believes and biases, and learn to see when they are holding us back. We can also choose to change our perceptions into something that keeps us open to possibilities, seeing the world in a more positive light, and let slights, insults, and frustrations slide off of us like water off a duck.
Stoic Mindfulness
"You have power over your mind—not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength."
— Marcus Aurelius
How do we get better at managing our perceptions so they help us navigate the world in a happier and more productive way?
The Stoics offer a remedy to the potential distortions caused by our perceptions: the practice of mindfulness and the discipline of questioning our automatic interpretations of events. By becoming aware of how our perceptions shape our reality and actively challenging them, we can align our perceptions more closely with objective reality, or at least a more constructive subjective reality.
When something happens to us, we have what the Stoic call an “impression”, meaning, we observe what happens to us. We take these impressions and make a judgement about it, and that judgment leads us to take some action, usually driven by some emotion. But the Stoics recommend that we take a moment and try to see these impressions at their most basic level.
Did someone say something you thought was offensive? If we break this down to its most basic elements, what really happened was that someone made some sounds with their mouth, we interpreted what they said by thinking about those sounds, and we made a judgment about what those sounds meant. Recognizing your own judgments about what the other person said gives you the space to choose what you want to do about it. This is what Marcus Aurelius mean when he said, “Choose not to be harmed and you won’t be.”
Now this doesn’t mean that you don’t have any feelings surrounding the things that happen to you. If you partner breaks up with you, it hurts, and it’s okay to feel hurt. There is nothing wrong with feeling those uncomfortable or negative emotions. It’s okay to grieve the loss of the relationship and to feel the loss of the future that you thought you would have. What’s important is that you are aware of those feelings and your perceptions, so that even if you feel the hurt, you make choices not from the hurt, but from your rationality, principles, and values. Rather than lashing out from of hurt or spite, you can act with honor and compassion and make the situation easier on both parties. As Seneca said, “The consequences of anger are often far worse than the thing that caused the anger.”
Higher View
Another way to shift our perspective is to take what the Stoics call “the higher view”. What this means is that the more we can zoom out from our current perspective and look at situation from a much higher view. For example, if you can imagine viewing your current situation from 30,000 feet. Think about how small you look. Think about all the other people in your neighborhood, your city, and even the world and all the things they are working on and struggling with at the same moment. It gives you a perspective on how small you are and how small the things you are worried about are. But it also gives a perspective on the interconnectedness of us all.
This is actually a documented phenomenon called the “overview effect”. Astronauts who spend time in space often talk about how their whole perspective on life shifts when they see the Earth, the “pale blue dot” as Carl Sagan, a prominent physicist would call it. This literal change in perspective, changes how they view the rest of the world. Seeing the Earth and its thin layer of atmosphere, they see how fragile, tiny, and almost insignificant our planet seems in the vastness of space. They often gain a feeling of connectedness with the rest of humanity, a sense of compassion for all inhabits of the world, and a great sadness at the conflicts and struggles that plague us as a species.
Hayley Arceneaux, a physician assistant who spent several days in space, saw the planet through the context of her profession. She wrote, “It felt unifying, but it also made me think of healthcare disparities in a different way. How can someone born on that side of the globe have a completely different prognosis from someone born over here? I could see the nations all at once, and it felt more unfair than ever, the ugliness that existed within all of that beauty.”
Conclusion
Our perceptions are not merely passive windows to the world but active constructors of our reality. They shape our opinions, influence our choices, and dictate how we interact with the world. Stoicism teaches us the importance of examining and, when necessary, adjusting our perceptions to live a more fulfilling and less disturbed life. By understanding the power of perception, we can begin to see not just the world as it appears to be, but as it could be, through a lens of compassion, reason, and openness to change.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
Erick: Hello friends. My name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to the most important points. Share my thoughts and my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of Coffee Break.
This week's episode is an interview with Ori Halevy. Now, Ori is a comedian here in Berlin, where I'm staying at the moment, and last week and a few weeks ago, when I was having a really rough day, I decided to go out for some comedy and caught his show and really enjoyed it. We talked for a bit afterwards and just, he's a really smart guy, very philosophical and a lot of fun.
So I thought it would be fun to sit down and chat with him about life, philosophy, humor, and anything else that came to our minds. So this was done in a coffee shop in Berlin. Unfortunately, it's a little bit noisy and we did have some audio issues, but we did our best to clean this up and hope it sounds good.
You can also watch a video of this on YouTube, on my YouTube channel at Stoic Coffee. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I enjoyed chatting with Ori. Hello everybody. Welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break podcast. This is another live interview that I'm doing here. We're in Berlin.
We're at a nice little coffee shop. We've got our coffee going on here. So, coffee and tea. Cheers. So, this was a Nugetti. A Nugetti? Yeah, basically it's a mocha.
Ori: I like how they invent stupid names for things. Like if it's mocha, it's 3 euros, but if it's a Nugetti, it's 4. 70.
Erick: Exactly. So I'm like, eh, it's all good.
So today I'm with, go ahead and introduce yourself since I always butcher your name.
Ori: My name is Ori Halevy. I'm a comedian in Berlin, in English. Which is a weird choice. Yeah, what else? What should I say about myself?
Erick: Just talk about what you do. You obviously have the comedy show.
Ori: Yeah, I have Epic Comedy Berlin.
That's our comedy brand. We run a bunch of different shows around town. We have I don't know if people know this, but in Berlin there is actually the biggest English comedy scene in Europe. Yeah, we have I like to say we have comedians here from all over the world that couldn't make it in their country.
So they came here. But really it is a very, like, it's amazing seeing people tour everywhere. They're, some of them become a little famous online and stuff like that. And we, so there's a lot of, a bunch of different open mics. We just work with the most experienced comedians that are touring our local.
And we have different formats. So we have like a showcase on Friday at a place called Zosh. It's a very cool jazz club. But then we also have a Monday show which is actually philosophy versus comedy where my partner in crime, Brendan Hickey, he's he's got a master's in philosophy so he brings a real philosophical idea and then we kind of make fun of it.
It's a lot of fun. Check it out, Wise Fools. And and then we have some, so essentially how we built the Knights is just a different ways of working out. So we have a show called Darkest Thoughts where the audience can write us their darkest thoughts and then we have to improvise comedy on it. And we have an open mic called saying the wrong thing.
So we're always kind of like testing the waters of different ideas from philosophical to topical to all that kind of stuff. And that's what I do. Nice. I'm also a writer. I write for TV and movies.
Erick: Excellent. Yeah, I went to the the Wise Fools the other night.
Ori: Oh, yeah. Brendan told me about that. Yeah.
Yeah. What did you think?
Erick: Yeah, it was pretty funny. So, he, he appreciated the fact that he had a, what he called, you know, he's like, oh, so you're the professional. And I'm like, well, I, I like to think so. I've been doing this for seven years, six years now. Wow. So, I think I've learned a little bit about stoicism, where I can speak intelligently about it.
I'm also writing a book on stoicism right now. We're in the negotiation phase. I'm writing some writing samples for them to see if they like it and so far so good So I'm hoping to get a contract.
Ori: Was that the Romans?
Erick: Yes, the Romans. The Romans were like, let's
see if you're ready. It's a big publisher in America.
Like one of the biggest. But it's a small imprint from them and they have a very specific focus on things. And I'm not sure if I'm contractually allowed to say anything yet, but Don't say it. But hopefully it'll come through. And if not, I've got ideas for a whole number of books. And this has also really helped me to kind of hone my writing style a little bit.
For, and theirs is what they call an academic light is the tone of it. So it's, it's academic, but it's supposed to be very approachable. And so, cause at first I had some, I had some funny little quips and stuff in there and they're like, yeah, that's a little too loose for what we want. We need a little bit more academic light.
I'm like, okay, that, that's actually more of what I do anyway in my podcast.
Ori: So it's like academic but palatable.
Erick: Yes. It's not like it's super dry. A while back I was reading you know, to kind of, when, when I first got approached about writing this book, I wanted to make sure that I understood some of the deeper parts of the history of the philosophy and so on, the differences between Stoicism versus some of the Socratic ethnic virtues that came afterwards, like from Aristotle and Plato and stuff like that.
So I was reading a fairly dense academic paper on it, and it was, it was only 18 pages long. Holy crap, it was so hard to read, because it was very Very lawyer esque, in a way, I guess would be the best way to describe it. So philosophers, true, you know, academic philosophers have a way of talking about things.
And they use words that are like, whoosh.
Ori: That's what I feel like. I feel like the whole I don't know if that was, because sometimes they say that the philosophers of the time were kind of comedians. You know, I'm not saying they were trying to make people laugh necessarily, but they were trying to talk to the masses, like, not all of them.
But so there was the academic side, and then there was the more approachable side, I guess. And I think that's gotten lost. I mean, even on me, like, I'm not, I'm not a scholar. You know, I'm I have my own thoughts about things. But then I do feel a lot of this stuff is not approachable at all. And if you try to read it, you know, You're like, what the fuck are you talking, can you just tell me what you're talking, what do you mean?
And then and then when I, like, that's one of the reasons I like the show me and Bender are doing is because he has the master. So he brings it up, and then I'm the stupid, and me and another guy, we're kind of the stupid guys that, that deal with it. But at the same time, I have had these thoughts.
And, and it's, and it's refreshing, and it's interesting where somebody says, Well, someone has actually thought this through, and this is the structure they've created. And I think that's not approachable. Like, even Stoicism itself I don't think most people know what it is.
Erick: Yeah. You know, like And for me, I found, luckily, that Stoicism was the most approachable, even from reading, you know, things that were directly attributed to Epictetus because he never wrote anything down himself, but one of his students wrote it down and said, I tried to write it down as verbatim as absolutely possible.
That's where we get the endocrinia and what was the other one he did? Discourses. From him or from one of his students whereas Seneca we have the direct writings Like he actually sat down and wrote down his stuff and then meditations from Marcus Aurelius But in reading all of them, that's the one I know.
Yeah, and those are pretty approachable So they they did a pretty good job.
Ori: Yeah, but not for today. I feel like
Erick: Yeah, a lot of it is, though, the language that's been handed down over time. It's kind of like, it's kind of like the Bible. You know, you read it and it was written, you know, the King James Version is the most popular English version one.
In, in, in Austria and in most German speaking countries, it's the Luther Bible. It's the one that Martin Luther translated. So we're talking about things that were translated into Old English back in the 1600s. And that's what's, or earlier, and that's what's being used in modern day religions. So, yeah, it makes it a bit less approachable because people aren't going, you know, hey.
So, a lot of it is because the translated language is also very outdated.
Ori: I grew up in Israel and we had, like, we had, like, a class on the Bible. And it's also antiquated Hebrew, you know. And, like, we get it, like, more, I guess, than the translated stuff. But it's still kind of, it's like being a kid and listening to Shakespeare.
It's a weird It's not the language you're talking. It makes it not approachable. Like, I haven't, I gotta admit, I haven't re, like, I haven't re read the Bible, because in class they made it seem so boring. Yeah. That you just don't wanna, you just don't wanna approach it, you know? And I feel like philosophy is like, I saw this this video once of of a guy and he was saying that we've lost a major part of our relief source when, because when we were in tribes, there was the shaman, right?
And the shaman was the thinker, so that guy, he'll figure out the spiritual stuff. And I don't need to think about it at all. He's going to tell me what the gods are thinking today and that's it, I'm not arguing with that at all. If I have any trauma, any problem, I'll just go to heaven. And then it grew into like the bigger religions.
And now, we're in this age where we all think, well not all, but a lot of us are like, either don't believe in religion, or have stepped away from it somewhat, or are complete atheists. And then we have this gaping hole. And a lot, and some people are looking for philosophy, but I don't think philosophy is, I mean now, yeah, you're doing this podcast, there's some people talking about it, et cetera, et cetera.
But I feel like there's so many things that, where we're lost. And we could, if we had this like easily approachable thing, then, then I would just be like, oh, okay, I'm, I'm, you know, this is a fear I had or a thought I had and I didn't really think it through, but somebody's already done that. And it's, I think it's also probably stems from some sort of I don't want to, I don't want anybody to tell me what to do.
Because if you're already not believing in religion, you're like, I don't want, you know. So, you're stepping away from ideas that are already thought through sometimes. But, I just feel like philosophy is like a, it's like a pop culture idea. But not a lot of people really interact with it.
Erick: Yeah, and I fall into that category as well.
So, I took a philosophy class when I was in college, in my twenties. And it went through some of the major philosophies, and it . Even though I was very big into psychology, you know, I'd read like The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck and other things like that, because I grew up very, very Mormon, which was a very strict religion.
You were a Mormon? Yeah. Oh my god. That's why I speak German is I went on my mission to Austria. Wow,
Ori: Mormon. You stepped away from Mormonism. I did. Wow, that's a good choice.
Erick: Yes, it has been a really good choice for me. Wow, how long ago was that? About 20 years. 20 years.
Ori: Wow, 20 years not a Mormon. Yeah. And have you seen Book of Mormon?
Erick: I've heard it. I've listened to the musical I used, I started out as a musical theater major in college, so I love musicals. Oh, okay. And so I listened to it. I haven't seen it yet. That's, oh, you should see it. It's just, yeah, it's, when it came to Portland, I, for whatever reason, I didn't go so, but yeah, it's one, I want to see it.
So many of the songs in there, I just laugh my ass off because I'm just like, I could totally relate to 'em because you know, it's about missionaries and all the things in there. I'm just like, oh my God, this is hilarious. Having been in theater. Like the one where the guy is singing about shove it down, like he's gay and he doesn't want to do something.
I was just thinking about that. It was just like, man, I knew, I knew so many kids who were. And some of them didn't, obviously didn't come out.
Ori: In the, in the theater thing? Or were there Mormons that studied with you? Yeah. Wow.
Erick: Yeah, and one of them is he's actually incredibly successful. He didn't come out until later on.
But we all kind of knew. But nobody cared in my high school. We were all, I came from a fairly affluent high school. And, we really didn't care one because he was just an amazing guy. And everybody just adored him. He was just a great person. And so even though most of us had an inkling that he probably was, It was like, we don't want to know.
We didn't ask. Don't ask, don't tell. Because if it did come out, we knew that it would, it would cause problems. Sure. So nobody wanted anybody, nobody really wanted to know because . We, one, we didn't care. And two, it would just cause more trouble than it, it was worth. Sure. Yeah. And so when, when we finally did come out, I sent him a note, this was, you know, years later and I just said, Hey, just wanna let you know.
I'm so glad. Was a physical note. No, no. I, I sent him an an email and I just said, Hey, just wanna let you know, you know, found out about it. You finally coming at it and I'm, and I just wanna say. I love you and support you and I want you to find your happiness and I hope that you find somebody who's worthy of you.
That's cool. And he was just like, thank you so much for your support. That's awesome. And I'm like, you've always been a great person. This doesn't change my opinion of you one iota because you are who you are. Yeah. And he's incredibly successful in the musical theater world. Yeah. And yeah, so I love watching his career rise up, and he's a pretty amazing person.
But, you know, for me it was just always, that was one of the main reasons.
Ori: Becoming more and more gay as it goes along. Starting from Mormonism and becoming the gayest person on the planet.
Erick: So, yeah, but what was, I think a lot of it though was because that was one of the things that, that I, I disliked the church's stand on.
Because, Thank you. , he didn't choose to be this way. Sure. He want, I mean, he would love to be your normal straight person, but he's not. Yeah. And I know that he's not making a choice to be gay like a lot of people think he can. I'm like, no.
Ori: It's just that to me is is that's always like I've, I've I've said like the, the, one of the reasons like Jews support I mean not, you know, secular Jews at least.
The reason why I support gays is because they're the front line at this point. Like, if they go against the gays, we're next. So, we'll support that movement as much as we can. But yeah, I mean, you can see it. Like, it's, it's this idea, which is counter to philosophy in a way, I guess. Or, it's just picking one and, like, saying it.
This idea of, like, there's a certain way to live your life, and if you don't do that, then you're dead. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Erick: Yeah. You know, and yeah, so back to yeah, so back to the whole kind of approachable philosophy thing. Like I said, when I was in college, I took the class and it didn't, it didn't ever really click for me.
It's like, okay, that's kind of cool. It just seemed like it was something that was gonna be way over my head. And so I think that maybe I approached it in a way, like, oh, this is just gonna be way too, too heady for me. I'm not smart enough to understand that. And so when I stumbled into stoicism, because I didn't even know it was a philosophy, I just knew the term stoic, you know, like most people do, like somebody's stoic and they're non emotional.
And Tim Ferriss mentioned on his podcast, he said, there's this book that changed my life. And he, Tim reads a ton. I don't know if you follow his podcast, but he's an interesting guy. But he was just like, this book changed my life. And I was like, okay, if Tim reads that many books, and this is one where he says, this is one of the best books out there and it changed my life.
Okay. Maybe I should give it a read. And the title of it was A Guide to the Good Life, The Art of Stoic J oy. And I thought stoic joy that, okay. There's a little bit of a paradox there, at least in my mind. Okay. That sounds interesting. I got to read this and order the book, read it through the first time.
And there were plenty of moments of like, Oh, Oh, that's pretty good. But I'm like, it didn't really sink in. And so I got the audio book. And then when I was going to and from work every day, I would listen to it for about 20 minutes. And I kept having these lightbulb moments like, Oh my God, Oh, just like, Oh my God.
Okay, that I did, then I've been looking at the world like this and it's really more like this. Or if I look at it like this, things are a lot clearer and make a lot more sense. And so for me, stoicism is such an approachable philosophy because its whole goal is how to live a good life. So while the con and the, when you break down a lot of the concepts, they feel counterintuitive, but they are understandable.
And the principles themselves are fairly simple in many ways, but just like most things, even if it's simple, it doesn't mean it's easy. So it's a simple idea, but like, you know, what do you control? What you can't control, where you can control the way that you think about things, your perspective, your thoughts, so on and the choices you make and the actions you take.
That's it. And you're like, okay, what exactly does that mean? So when you really dig into that, Then you recognize you have to let go of everything else, because you're not in control of that, like you're not even in control of your own body. You get cancer, your knee hurts, whatever, you can control what you do about it, but you can't control your body in the way that you would want to.
You would want to say like, I never want to get cancer, I always want to have a six pack or anything like that. What you can control are the choices you make, like if you eat too many hamburgers, you're going to put on some fat, if you drink too much whiskey, you're going to ruin your liver, those kind of things.
Ori: I just have a joke where I was talking about looking at things from other people's perspective, and I just slowly go, like, from people who are, like, against you. And it just makes your life easier. And then I said, well if you have cancer, look at it from the cancer perspective, you know? He's just like, hey, I'm level four!
And all his friends are like, you're killing it! You know? Like I feel comedy a lot of the times is is that. Like it takes, it takes the approach of like, here are not only dangerous thoughts, but here is a way to like, make them flexible, you know? And and I feel like it helps just deal with life. Like so it's similar in that way because I feel like for me, the problem with, with what, with, with this idea of like accepting that you have no control or letting go is it's not, as you said, it's not a simple thing.
So there has to be some sort of workout, you know, and the workout of the brain, I find other than meditation, stuff like that, it's, it's, it's very hard to do, but I find it to be a very good thing to do on stage. Once I can get into that area, which is, by the way, I feel like a lot of the times Not that people get triggered very much in my, in my shows, but when they get triggered, I feel like a lot of times it's because you're crossing that border in their brain where from control to what they can't control and they're trying to control it.
But it's not even they're trying to control you, they're trying to control their thought, but you just said it out loud and now you can't do that because, oh, my God. So but, but to me if I go on stage and I go here are all the things I can't control and I play with them, I play with the idea of, you know, of, of death and disease and and and how fucked up my brain is and how I don't have control.
And this recent bit I did was like I asked people if they live in the moment. Most people don't, don't say, say nothing like they're not living in the moment. And and I told him, yeah, you're thinking about your videos and your phone right now. But I was saying, like, I have a weird contradiction in my brain where so there's the real world and there's the imaginary world.
And I go like for example, I love doing stand up comedy. So I really appreciate each one of you that is here. But at the same time, I'm heavily disappointed that I am because I was supposed to be in an arena right now with people sucking my dick for autographs, you know, but, but at the same time, this is great.
This is amazing. So just this constant. It's so, it's so weird, and I feel like a lot of things play into it, like this whole manifestation thing, for example. What's your, what's your, what's your stance on manifestation?
Erick: I don't buy into the whole secret thing. What I buy into is that if you are putting your intention out there, and you are focusing on that thing, and you are actually taking action towards that thing, that thing will happen, in one way or another.
But just to go I want to manifest, you know, a new Mercedes Benz. Yeah. And you just sit there and wait for it to come. It's not going to happen. Yeah. But if you go, I want to manifest a Mercedes Benz, and every chance I get, I'm going to do something that's going to move me towards that goal. Yeah. Then, yeah.
Sorry about all the noise. So we, this was the
Ori: Berlin. Yes, Berlin. There's no place in Berlin with no noise. They build the buildings in a way where like, the cold can't come in, but your neighbors talking or having German sex, just no problem at all.
Erick: Yeah. So, I apologize for the noise. I'm going to reduce it as much as I can on the sound, but it makes it more lively.
But yeah.
Ori: But I agree with you. I think that the what's funny to me about Manifesta, so I agree with the idea that, I think Manifestation in general, the idea of like, Seeing a specific future and then trying to get to it that that works. But then there's so much emphasis on this stuff I've seen lately on if you don't have the thing that you want You're not manifesting well enough and I just thought I thought it's like it's a combination of Motivation and procrastination so you're spending all of this energy to go nowhere and this people telling you well you have to do that better
Erick: It reminded me I saw somebody who asked me one time, you know, they're like well But, you know, if you just manifest hard enough, I'm like, well, that's not, I mean, I said, but the way that they talk about it, you're just not doing it good enough.
That's exactly like religion. I mean, that's what I tried. I tried to live all the Mormon things exactly the way I was supposed to, and I was still unhappy.
Ori: Were you like really thinking about that every day?
Erick: And I was, I tried so hard and I was miserable and I just, I, it never worked for me at all of this stuff.
And I'm like, and what was the answer? You just don't have enough faith. Your faith just isn't strong enough. I'm like, my faith is damn strong. I went, I went to Austria for two years and try talking to those people about Jesus Christ. I mean, I'm sitting here talking to people who've been Catholic for ever about, they should join our version of Jesus's church and tell them that their church is wrong.
That takes, that's a lot of hard work. And so I'm like, I'm trying, I'm really trying to do this thing. And so for me, once, what really did it for me was I, after trying so hard and feeling like I was a big failure with this my ex wife left the church and was just like, I'm not going anymore. It doesn't work for me.
And she had joined the church later in life. And then after a few months, she was, you know, she's like, you can go if you want, don't care. But I'm like, I went a couple of times. I'm like, you know, I'd rather be out cycling. I'm an avid cyclist. And so I've got riding on Sundays. And then a few months later, she gave me a book.
It was called Leaving the Saints by this gal named Martha, Martha Beck. She's a big time life coach now. Her father was the chief apologist for the church for 50 years. And he had a PhD, and so he was the master of, like, twisting things around. And so, she wrote a book about her journey of leaving the church.
And I learned a lot about the church's dirty laundry and stuff that they had covered up for a long time. That was documented, was legit, like it was fully researched, fully vetted, so She's like, this is the real deal, I've done all the research on this, and the church even acknowledges these things. And there was enough things in there where I recognized that Joseph Smith was a con man and a pedophile.
And made up the whole thing, and I went, Okay, this was all bullshit. I can leave and I physically felt lighter like I remember I was reading the book and I read that and I was I read some stuff on there and I was just like, I put the book down and I just stood up and I was like, I can leave in good conscience because I tried and it's all bullshit and I felt like this.
You know, there's, I described, you know, there's big statues on Easter Island, you know, the big long nose guys. I felt like I had one of those on my shoulders and I just shaked it off. And I had to look around because I physically felt lighter. Like I was floating off the ground. I'm like, okay, I'm not, I'm not floating.
Okay. It just feels like I'm floating. It was just this giant relief. And I was like, okay,
Ori: well, that's a good lesson on letting go. I guess. Yeah. Do you manage to do that then if you have fears and anxieties or do you work on that also every day?
Erick: I work on a lot. One of the things that I'm working on now is adjusting my career path to work with CTOs and CEOs on developing better leadership through stoic principles You know, adjust your thinking, making decisions in uncertainty, building good teams, building a good culture within a company.
Because if you, if you can do that, then you can be much more successful. Your team will be happier. You will be happier. And it makes your work environment so much more fun to be in and having an example, like something that very simply put a lot of it is a lot of people think that if you're the manager, you're the boss.
That you have to control everything. And that's the worst way to work. And every team that I've been on where the manager came in and was like, Hey, by the way, my job is to serve you. My job is to be here to get everything out of the way so that you can do your job. I hired you because you're smart enough and I will let you do your job.
I'm not going to interfere because I'm too busy doing other things. And I need you to step up and do your job because that's what I hired you for. So a lot of autonomy, clear communication, clear setting of expectations or negotiation of expectations. Just things like that.
Ori: That's kind of like how my parents raised me, by the way.
Yeah. They were like, we trust you, don't do please just, you know, if you stay out late, call us, da da da da da. And it was a sneaky trick. Because at the end of the day, you rebel less. You're like, well, I have all these freedoms, so I guess I should be a little, you know, responsible.
Erick: Yeah, and most people, you give them, you know, as they say, you give them the rope to hang themselves.
If you give people autonomy and you say, hey, I need this done by this time and I need the quality to be like this, be just, be wise about your time and I'll let you do, go do your job. And you don't micromanage people, you trust your people and you, You have the integrity to be trustworthy. So a lot of people think that if they have a sucky team is because they have bad team members.
And sometimes that's the case, but usually it's the leader. Interesting. If the leader is not a good leader, the team is going to, you can have great people on the team and it's going to suck and it's going to fall apart. Yeah, I get that. But if you have a great leader, you can have weak people on the team and they usually will rise to the occasion because they trust that person.
They admire that person. They want to please that person, so they want to do good work because they feel like they're part of that team. And I found that when I was on teams that way, we got so much work done. And I enjoyed going to work. Like I was getting, when I was getting divorced, it was really, it was really hard.
I was just in a bad place mentally, which happens during divorce. And I remember that my manager at the time was this really good Really good?
Ori: Sounds like a, sounds like a, just a time that, you know, passes you by.
Erick: So, but my manager at the time was this really great guy. And I wouldn't apply. We got along really well and he was very trusting and he, he earned my respect.
And a lot of it was because he's like, you're a smart guy. I hired you. Get your work done. Communicate with me every day about what's going on. Just, you know, just let me know what's happening and let's just get this stuff done. And because he trusted me and I learned to respect him a lot. And so I actually work was my safe place because home was really hard right then.
And so going into work was like, I can go into work and I don't have to worry about crap. I don't, I don't, because my job was a good job to go into. It was a, it was a good place for me to be. So mentally I could fall apart at work if I needed to. And my boss was just like, I understand you're going through a rough time.
It's all good. Just keep doing what you're doing. If you need to. Take a long lunch and go for a walk, whatever, just, just take care of yourself. And so that made it so that it was, you know, like if your home life sucked and your work sucked, you just feel like life's just a giant pile of shit. So if you have at least one of those, that's, that's a good place to be, then you can deal with the harder things at home.
And so I think that a lot of people miss that. And so, yeah, so a lot of it for me is transitioning into this coaching of helping CEOs and CTOs of how to develop good leadership. Which therefore, when you lead well, then you can lead good teams, which makes the work environment so much better for everybody else.
Everybody's more productive because they're not just trying to put their time in, they're trying to get stuff done because they have the same vision that you have.
Ori: But then sometimes people don't step up. Like I remember when I do like cause I've been writing for TV and stuff for many years and I like show running teams.
That's that's pretty much my attitude. I'm like look you guys are here for your own reasons and you're creative people This is the show. I'm gonna give you the guidelines and we're gonna work on this together Just do your stuff and some people which are talented and you kind of they want to be there but they're just not stepping up and it's that's where I get I don't micromanage ever but that's where I used to get like frustrated because Because then you have to start asking yourself.
What is the motivation if you don't want to fire them? If you don't want to go to the I'm either firing you or I'm gonna me yell at you or don't want to use any of these tools Then that's always like an issue of like, how do you find what motivates that person? How do you also keep the balance because I feel there's always this balance of like What are the things that will either motivate you versus what are the things that will annoy you or make you want to not do?
The thing that you're yeah. Yeah, that's a tough one. I feel like
Erick: Yeah, but as a good leader trying to actually understand that rather than just going you're doing a bad job Hmm You know, slapping him on the wrist, that doesn't work out very well. But if you go on to him and say, Hey, you know, you have good talents.
What is it? Why aren't these talents coming out? Why am I missing these talents? If you've been a good leader and they respect you, they'll be like, If they're, if they're worth it and they actually do want to succeed at this thing, they'll, they usually will step up to the plate and they'll be like, Oh, you know what?
You're right. I didn't, I've been slacking because X, Y, and Z. And okay, what can we do to overcome X, Y, and Z? I mean, I had a boss who did that with me. I wasn't, I wasn't really pulling my weight with some of the stuff that I was working on. This was 25 years ago. So I was just getting into my career and I was a junior developer and was just, I was, and I know I was slacking.
I look back on it now and I don't necessarily know why I wasn't pulling my weight as well, but because he was very gentle about it and he just said, you know I'm kind of disappointed that you're not not pulling your weight here because I know you can do that What can I do to help you so you can you can get back up to speed like that?
I was like, oh
and part of it was embarrassment for me. I'm like, yeah, okay, you caught me, but then it was also like And I'm not getting a slap on the wrist. You're just saying, Hey, I'm, I'm disappointed in you and I know you can do better. And I was like, yeah, he really means that. And he's going to support me. Oh, okay. So the next time we had a review three months later, he was just like, I'm so proud of you.
This is, you have done so much good work. In fact, you've, you've exceeded what I was hoping you would be able to get done. So I knew you had this in you. Good job. And I was just like, Hey, thanks. And for me, it really helped. Me too.
Ori: A lot of sick people in Berlin though, , .
Erick: And it really helped me to really up my game as far as that goes.
And so I was much more motivated to come into work and I, I really enjoyed working there. The only reason I left that was 'cause we didn't wanna live in Minnesota anymore.
Ori: You know what I found about what I found weird about German ambulances? It seems to me that they have the, the, the, in anywhere I've been to the world, these are the strongest sirens.
This is why we're hearing them. And it seems to me that it's a, it's a combination of wanting to help and show off. You know, and just be like, we gotta get somewhere. But also I'm helping people. Oh my God, look at me. So that's the every time I just like, oh my God, I'm a doctor, , whatever. Anyway, sorry. Yeah, no worries.
I have to comment on it because of course, because you're a comedian and because it interrupted the sound, so I gotta say something. Yeah. Here we go again. Alright.
Erick: There seem to be a lot of those around here, so I dunno if there's,
Ori: That's what I'm saying. They're no, actually, you know what? I think it's actually police, and I'll tell you what, speaking about stoicism, I mean, or, or solutions that are, you know what, what, what I've found that Berlin policemen, policemen do, which I've never seen anywhere. If you do anything out of order that the police has called for so instead of like being very, you know, violent or whatever, getting the guns out, they get ten people on it.
So I, I've seen a drunk guy being kicked out of the bar wanting to come in, surrounded by ten police officers. And the thing is, it just immediately works on your psyche. There is no way that you're misbehaving. It doesn't matter how drunk you are. There is no way you're misbehaving when there's ten police officers around you.
And it solves issues like that. It's amazing. So, every time there's a minor thing, there's like a busload of cops just driving there. And things get solved really easily. Yeah, I'm sure. Also, they're hot, by the way. That's true. That's true. If you see the billboards as well, they're always, they photograph them.
But also, you can just see it. They're hot because that's another psychological trick. That's true. You're, you're, you're going to get less into conflict with people you're attracted to. It's just something they do here.
Erick: Learn America, I guess. Exactly, we don't need to shoot everybody.
Ori: Exactly, just get hot looking people, and a lot of them, that's all you need.
And then the police will get a better reputation.
Erick: Exactly, so.
Ori: But then how is that how is that directly connected to stoicism, would you say, the, what you just said about the leadership role?
Erick: I think a lot of it has to do, I mean, obviously Marcus Aurelius was a fantastic example of leadership about trying to, I mean, he was the most powerful man in the world at that time, and yet he was trying to always improve himself, to be humble.
I mean, he talks about, you know, when you get up in the morning, you're going to deal with people who are greedy, who are selfish, who are ignorant, who are loud, who are, you know, all these things about them. And he's like, and the reason that they're this way is they don't know good from evil, and it's your job to help try and instruct them.
And I was just like, That's a pretty, pretty good statement coming from the emperor who could just say off with your head and they would do it. So he could just be like, yeah, you're annoying me today, you know, go kill this guy. And everybody would be like, okay, you said so, emperor, let's go do this thing.
Ori: Have you ever seen the Tudors, the show, the TV show?
Erick: I watched one or two episodes with my ex partner.
Ori: It's a fantastic, I don't know how it holds up now in terms of the quality of the design and everything. Because it was at the time where, where like, TV dramas were like it was the golden age, but they still didn't have the budget, but I thought was fantastic show and that is the example of the opposite of that leadership.
This guy was so volatile Yeah, and that was what was fascinating about it. It's amazing that I think we don't associate Childish behavior or emotional behavior or all that kind of stuff to leaders, you know, if you look at Trump I guess you can just see it on him But he's the words that is he's saying is I know this is all rooted in very smart strategical No, you're just it's just a big baby.
Yeah, and you just you just want to control everything and it's It's interesting. I get you never look at And it, I think, I think it is hard once you're in a leadership position to not lose yourself in it. Yeah.
Erick: Yeah. Well, like they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And Marcus Aurelius is a fantastic example of not letting that happen.
And so I think stoicism, because, because it focuses on there are only four Except all the slavery. Yeah. Yes, there was, yeah, true. There was slavery, wars, and other things going on. Yeah. I mean, there was only so much he could do.
Ori: But, or realize,
Erick: yeah, but there was also, you know, like the Stoics, they talk about the only good is to develop virtue and that's, you know, courage, wisdom, temperance, and justice.
That's it. Like everything else is neither good nor bad. And Aristotle also believed that wealth, beauty, and health were also virtues that you should aspire to. The Stoics, yeah.
Ori: How do you aspire to beauty?
Erick: I don't know. That's what I was kind of wondering. Either you're pretty or you're not. I mean, yes, you can trim your beard a little more, do your hair or whatever, but, you know.
Ori: I'm big coming from him? Yeah.
Erick: But the Stoics broke with that tradition. They just said no. Like, those are indifference. Like, if you are rich and you don't, you know, you need to do all the virtues because then you could be either rich or poor or whatever. And you're still happy. You could be either in good health or bad health and you're still happy.
You could be beautiful or you could be ugly and you're still happy. It doesn't matter. Those things are, it's nice, they're nice to have. It's nice to be rich, it's nice to be healthy, it's nice to be good looking. But it doesn't, in order to live a virtuous life, you don't have to have those things.
Ori: So there's a, there's a bit of Buddhism there as well I think, no?
Like, um, there was this when we were in India, there was, we had this driver, a Buddhist driver. And he took us to this awful, awful place called Spiti Valley, which, if you go to India, unless you like a lot of rocks everywhere, I wouldn't suggest you go. But he drove us this, it was like a, it was like an eight hour drive or something like that.
And horrible, horrible, like we were suffering the whole way through. And he stopped once, he went to this little outside temple, and he was always smiling, always like, And that's his job. He's just a driver, you know? I mean, not to belittle drivers, but I'm saying his whole job is to just drive from point A to point B.
And then we got to the place we were finally getting to, and he was like, he was going to sleep where the drivers sleep. And we were like, no, no, no, we're going to pay for your room. And he was like, no, I don't want it. I want my thing. And I was like, yeah, I appreciate that. Because, yeah, he found his own way to be happy, and he seemed super happy the whole time.
And that takes real, like, inner discipline to be like This is my thing I like, this is what I'm doing, and I'm not going to sway from the way that I do these things because it might cause me pain probably, which is interesting. I, as I'm an anxious person myself, I have anxiety like my whole life. And I've been dealing with it with different tools and therapy and stuff like that.
I think one of the main things in anxiety also because I have ADHD. So it's like a combination of like my friend calls it. It's like there's, you know, how in creativity they say it's the magic what if, right? But that's also the cursed what if, if you look at it from the anxiety perspective, because everything could be bad, right?
So recently I've broken it down to like are you trying, as you said before, are you trying to make things not happen? Or do you trust yourself, if things happen, you'll be able to handle them? And I think that's a very strong distinction, and there's a problem there, which is, I think, trust. You have to trust yourself enough to know that you could handle them, and have enough willpower to to know that you'll be able to that it doesn't matter that all these what ifs, and They don't matter because you have no control of them and 99 percent of the time they won't happen.
You're just creating imaginary scenarios you don't have to deal with. But then you have to take your brain away from that. Because it's, it's, there's something, first of all, there's something more attractive in negative thought than there is in positive thought. Because in positive thought, you're just, things are good.
You're not thinking a lot. But then all these negative options, they're, they're, they're story time, you know. They're, they're, yay, oh, Netflix. I find that to be like a, a big challenge, like in terms of just pushing, just physically feels like, like you're pushing it to the other side and you're like, Oh, let's keep my focus here.
It's, it's hard to do.
Erick: Yeah. Well, one of the things that, that right along with that, it reminded me when you were talking is that Seneca tells us, like, usually we have anxiety because we're worried about the future or we're stuck in the past. We're worrying about things that we have no control over either way, because most of these things in the future that we think.
Aren't going to happen. And the things in the past, well we can't do anything about them. So, you're borrowing misery either way. So yeah, so the Stoics are very much about, like the Buddhists, being as present as possible. But, they also talk about and I'm sure you've probably read about this, the idea of Primanidātyamālora.
It means premeditated malice, and you sit down in a, in a safe.
Ori: By the way, you're giving me way too much credit for reading and being smart. I'm just telling well, you say the ideas that I've had and possibly overheard and uhhuh and some of it I've read very little. I've read, but these are just thoughts that I,
Erick: well, so the idea of Preme Malorum is that in a safe place.
You,
Ori: I can speak Hebrew and be like ancient Hebrew and be like, oh, look at me. And there you go. You just use those words. .
Erick: What's the idea that you, in a safe place, you sit down and you think about the worst possible scenario. What's the worst that could happen in this situation? So that way you, you get that from spinning around in your head, so you write it down or you talk it out or do something like that, but you take an active approach to it.
One, so that it gets it out of your system. At least, this is the way I view it. Gets it out of your system. But two, so that when you write it down, you can realize, oh, it's not as bad as I think it's going to be. Or, what will I do if that happens? And if it does happen, would I be able to manage that? And you go, oh yeah, if it did happen, I'd be able to manage that.
Like, when I was working for a startup, there was one point where they bounced five of my paychecks in a row. And, I had just gotten divorced, and so I was paying child support and alimony, and so I had 17 to my name for a week one time. Wow. And I had a date, and I, she came over, and I was just like, By the way, I've got 17.
He's like, well, there's a sushi place right up in the corner. Throw in your 17 and I'll cover the rest. I was like, thank you. And we had a great time. And then you were homeless.
Ori: Well, but then later that week. Pulling out of that sushi steak. Yes!
Erick: But I had to ride my bike to work, which was fine with me.
Because I couldn't afford to pay gas and things like that. And it kind of freaked me out for a little bit. But then I was like, okay. What would be the worst that would happen? If, you know, I lost my job, the company went under and I'm like, and it took me a while to find another job because this was back in 2005, 2006.
So the economy was okay, but there was, there were some things starting to shake loose a little bit, but I really thought through that. I'm like, okay, well, what would I do if I lost my job and was not able to find another one? I'm living in a pretty cheap apartment. Okay, let me just think about this. And I went through all the scenarios of what I could do.
You know, I could, I could move back to Salt Lake, where my brother was living at the time. Or I could move back to Minnesota for a while and live with my mom. And, then I would, yeah, I'd miss my kids for a bit. But, you know, it would probably just be for a few months, or maybe six months, something like that, until I got back on my feet.
You know, or if worse came to worse, I could sleep in my car. It's almost summer and that's doable. And I've got a gym membership that's super cheap. It costs me 49 bucks a year. It was a deal I bought way back when, and I just now pay 49 a year so I can go shower every day at the gym. Not a big deal. So I was like, okay, I can do this.
I could figure this out, you know? And, and so I just.
Ori: Heroin is pretty cheap
Erick: now. There you go. I went through all these scenarios like that and what it, it did a number of things for me. One, it reassured me that I would be able to survive. That this was not the bottom of the barrel. Like I could, I would be okay one way or the other.
And second, it also released the grip that money had on me. Because I realized that money wasn't that important. I mean, yes, it's important, but that I could survive on very little. Yeah. And I could make things stretch. And that I had community that I could reach out to, to help support me if I needed to.
And it was like, okay. And so that, by going through that, and then later on when I found out about it, I found out about stoicism. I went, Oh, that's, I've done this before in a very important time in my life. And yes, this is incredibly helpful and it relieved a lot of that anxiety for me.
Ori: I agree. I know that tool and I use it occasionally.
I always forget like in my mind is so I have so many things running around my mind that I, that there, there are tools that I hang onto that help me through time. And then there's tools like that, that when I use and they're, they're good. Yeah. And then I forget to use them again. So that's a good reminder.
Erick: Yeah, well often times it's because life's going along well. And so, while it's going well, and then you don't use it for a couple of months, and suddenly like, things get rough, and you're like, oh crap, what do I do now? And I have to do that periodically, because I'm just starting this whole change in my career.
And there are times when I'm like super anxious about it, and I look at my bank account and go, okay. I've got money, I can last for a while, but I need to start bringing in money. You could always use more on
Ori: Patreon, huh? This room is costing money.
Erick: Exactly, but things like that where I go, I go, you know, I need to, I need to start getting out there, I need to start doing these things, I'm doing all the planning right now, and figuring out, you know, what is it that I'm going to teach, how am I going to help these people, how do I make sure that I communicate my message in a way that they understand this is really important.
And thinking about how to do that because my, my, like one example that I found, I'm taking a course right now on how to basically create a mastermind and, or like a hybrid type of mastermind slash course and bring people into those kinds of things. It's expensive, but it's really incredible for me because it changes my mindset dramatically.
So my career for the most part has been me. being brought problems and bringing the tools that I have to bear to solve those. So I have, I know how to program all of these computers. I know how to do all of these things. I have a lot of domain knowledge in certain areas, but I have all these tools that I know how to apply to problems that people bring to me.
I'm not really good at going out and figuring out this is the problem this domain is having. and, and chunking it down in a way that, or communicating it into a way, this is your problem. I will help you solve that. Mm-Hmm. I tried creating startups on my own for a while back 'cause I was in tech or with other people, and I wasn't really good at being the person to go, Hey, what's the problem we're gonna solve?
I would be like, Ooh, there's this cool technology. You can do all this really cool stuff and we can do all these things with it. What should we build with it? I,
Ori: Hmm.
Erick: Hmm. So I needed somebody to bring a problem to me, and then I could help them solve that. So now it's going out and figuring out what people's problems are, asking them and understanding that, getting in their mindset, and then communicating that to them.
So that's been a big shift for me, and now I'm starting to be able to see that. And it was something that I wasn't very good at before. Like, I knew my own personal problems. Like, that's why Stoicism, my podcast, does well, because it's mostly, Crap, this is a problem I'm dealing with. Well, how do I deal with it?
So I go to Stoicism. I write it all out. Do a lot of thinking about it and bring all of it together to bear on my own problems and then I just share those with other people. And so that's basically how my podcast has worked. But to go out of where my problems are and to help find other people's problems and show them, Hey, you've got a problem here.
Let me help you with that. That's something that's new for me. And so it's something I'm learning.
Ori: What kind of problems are you looking for? I mean, we're talking about their problems, talking about life problems, talking about tech problems, what are you talking about?
Erick: Mostly life problems. This is again, the leadership thing.
It's like, what are the problems that the leaders are really running into? You know, and I'm going, well, you, you have all these tools and they'll help you to be a better leader. Okay. But what's the problem that they have that they need to be a better leader or how do you explain to them? Okay. You think you're a good leader, but you, you actually have this problem and I'm here to help you solve this problem.
And.
Ori: Not a bad reality show as well.
Erick: Yeah. So, like I said, I'm better when people just bring me a problem and go, Hey, I've got a problem and I've got, cool, I've got all these tools that I can bring to bear and help you solve them.
Ori: If I can tell you as a, as a comedian, it's like First of all, I've been, I think my whole life just wanting to be an artist and a writer, et cetera, et cetera.
And then I do morning pages and I just go through my own psyche and, And then As I've become a comedian, like I've been doing it for over 10 years now, it's like there is this thing where you sit at home, you take something and then you bring it out. And then they laugh when they identify, when they don't laugh, when they don't identify.
And then you slowly like start this process of like this circular process where where you start to identify, but there is the, for me the laughter is a key. So you're just like, I bring something out and then I see where they are. And that a lot of times echoes to me what's happening. How much of what I'm going through is actually echoing through everyone.
And there's also this everyone thing because as a comedian you're trying to get the room. So there's going to be one or two people who are never going to be with you because they're, you know, But it's fine. But I hate them. But but you see, that's, that's, that's identification thing. So, that echoes a lot of the times what you see other people's problems are.
So just even generic tools can come of that that can help you. Assess what, what the problem is. Like if you tell, if you tell, if you, let's say, if you go to do a corporate gig and you want to laugh at certain people, you'll see, you're going to see who they're going to tell you, you can and cannot, for example, or you say something about the boss, cause you don't care and everybody's like, and you're like, oh, okay, this guy's a narcissist.
But also there's just this echoing thing where I like to use that. Like. There's a risk to it. The risk is you're going to bomb. The risk is you're going to be the guy who said it and nobody is identifying with it. And it becomes a risk once you divulge the fact that you are flawed individual. Like I have a bit about being insecure.
I say like I'm an insecure person. A lot of the time. So I said, this is an audience. And I go, a lot of times I feel maybe I'm not smart enough, not funny enough. I'm not attractive enough, but I also know that I'm better than all of you. So I don't know how that works in one way. And they're laughing and they're offended at the same time.
And I see that they're laughing and I go like, and some of you are thinking, I'm better than you. And we have the same problem. You see, this is, this is exactly what's happening here. So it's that's one of the reasons I love comedy. It's, it's, it's exactly that because you don't feel alone in your own little, I don't know, something there about echoing about identifying the problems that are there because the more you're able to touch those things, the more it resonates through, through the room and you see that everybody has like similar issues.
But I think to me, like what you said before about don't put your mind in the future. Don't put your mind in the past. Yeah. Those are very clear instructions, but they've, maybe because of the repetitiveness of them, have become vague. So what I try to do is, if I like what you said now, the tool of like saying, alright, just write down.
I try to find within the veins of within the, within those I'm looking for a word that escaped me. Never mind. Within, within that field of saying don't look in the past, I'm trying to, to go, what's the muscle? What's the muscle of not looking in the past? How do I strengthen that muscle? And then how do I talk about that?
And how do I remind myself while I'm talking about it? So I just, I had a, a set yesterday where I was saying I've been having a panic attack for four days or five days. Because of the thing that happened to me, and I'm aware of it and I'm functioning, you know? And so I just started talking about it and just to getting all this stuff out.
When does anxiety come from? And wow, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And just kind of, and, and everybody like identified with it and, and just letting it out just made me feel better and just making fun of myself. Mm-Hmm. for, for for being afraid of imaginary scenarios. Yeah. It's, it's ridiculous.
Yeah. You know?
Erick: Well, and that's, that's a good way I think of being present is. And a way to practice presence when you're getting stuck in the past is to vent it out like that. And that's why it's important to have community. And that's why, I mean, that's why oftentimes it's always the joke of, you know, when your partner, your female partner comes to you and it's just like, throws all these things out on you as a guy.
Our, our first instinct is we got to fix it because that's how we've been. Most of us have been raised. We got to fix the thing. Our only value comes from what we can do, you know? And so the first thing that, you know, any good. Marriage coach will tell you is ask if she wants it solved or if she wants you to listen.
And I mean you should listen anyway. Obviously. Practice active.
Ori: It'll be harder to solve if you don't listen.
Erick: Exactly. But you know, often times we just need to vent about the thing. And so for me often times my writing is that way. Writing an episode is that way because I'm struggling with something. I'll just sit down and be like err, err, err.
And go through and then I get done with it and go, ugh. Okay, it's not such a big thing. I took all of that and I put it out of my head and sometimes my journals are just that way, I'm just like I'm feeling anxious today and I just write about what's going on in my head and just getting it out of my head somehow deflates some of that energy that it has.
And it takes it, by putting it down there, it makes it a little more real so I can actually look at it. So it's not just spitting around in my head and ruminating on that. So that's really helpful, like you were talking about doing morning pages. That's kind of what this is sometimes. And for me, I find that by letting it out, it, it pulls you into the present and takes something from the past.
But you're talking about it with your friend, with yourself, whatever, right now. And it's. For me, that's a way of a bit of grounding as well. Also meditation is something that I do from time to time. That's very helpful.
Ori: Yeah. Meditation really helps. Yeah.
Erick: And for me, a lot of the main, the reason why meditation helped me become much more present minded.
I did this exercise about three years ago where I meditated for 60 minutes for 60 days in a row every day. And it was hard. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Sure. And I got it from um, what's his name? Totally blanking on his name. He's a VC. I don't remember. That's some other point.
But he had done that. One of his mentors is like, Hey, you really need to do this. And he's like, why? And he's like, because I'm telling you, you need to do this. I know you trust me on this. And he's like, okay, I'll do that. And he did it. And he was like, after that 60 days, It was like my base level of anxiety dropped dramatically.
Like by doing that, I became so much more aware of how my mind thought. So I can be aware of my own thinking at any time, far better than I have been before. Because, but also just that 60 minutes for 60 days. allowed my brain to process all of the backlog of things that had just been spinning in the back.
And it finally brought them to the front. And I could notice them be like, Oh, that's an interesting thought. I haven't thought about that for a while. And this thing, and it was like, he was able to just kind of work through and get rid of all of these things. So I did that. And I found that after that, that I was better able to look at my own thinking at any moment and realize all the stuff going along.
Yeah. All the clutter that was happening. And so I can just. Kind of stick my head up and go, okay, that's going on. That's going on. Hmm. Wow. There's a lot of things spinning around in here. Just be aware of it. And just that basic awareness then helped me in many ways. To, to recognize what was going on and what was causing some of that feeling, because our emotions are caused by our thinking, you know, worrying about something.
It's going to cause some anxiety, but if you're aware of it, it's easier to do something about it. Yeah. For me, I have this little practice that I do. I call it nudging, which is very simple. It's not edging, but nudging. And it's rather than trying to just change my mood on a dime, like I'm feeling anxious.
I don't want to feel anxious. So I'm going to try and do everything I can to get over here because our minds aren't very good at shifting that quickly. Except for emergency situations, you know, car's going to hit you. You're suddenly forgetting, forget about being anxious. And you're going to be like, Oh, you're going to be terrified.
So. But I found for me
Ori: If you get hit by a car, you're like, I might be gay. No, you're not.
Erick: Exactly. But I found for me, what it did was, what the idea of nudging is, is that I think, I think about something that generally makes me happy. Like I think about my kids. Or I think about the meal I had last night.
Just something a little bit happier. And I just kind of, just meditate on that just for a minute or two. And just, you know, And it just kind of like, or, you know, and I just kind of make myself just kind of relax a little bit and smile a little bit just to nudge my mood in the direction. And I think of it as kind of like if you take a, if you've ever been in a canoe, it doesn't take much to just shift a few degrees and go that direction and you are going to end up in a completely different side of the shore than if you kept going where you're going.
So that little nudge just kind of moves me in the right direction.
Ori: I, in the morning I do now when I wake up, I do, first of all, I I, I try to practice Transcendental Meditation I try to do it every day. I don't succeed, but I try. It is really helpful. It does reduce your anxiety, but what I'm starting to do every day when I wake up is I just sit, like, lay there for, like, a few minutes, and I think about that this is gonna be a great day.
Just, just I saw this comedian talking about it, but but he was talking about it from a different angle, but I like the idea of, like You kind of have to gaslight yourself. You kind of have to gaslight yourself. You kind of have to gaslight yourself. You kind of have to be like, it's going to be a great day.
And then, you know, why is it going to be a great day? Because my life is pretty good. This is pretty good, that is pretty good. If anything happens, I can deal with it. But you don't have to get in, like, especially in the morning, before everything kicks in. Because in a few minutes, everything is going to kick in.
You have a little bit already, the computer is starting to bring up all the stuff. You just sit there for a second, and you go, you This is going to be a great day because the sun is shining, my wife is here, and I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, you know what, this is going well, that is going well. And then you wake up and I found this to be like important where the first thing you say in the morning, right?
If you're with someone, if you're with a spouse or whatever. First, it's like, just do it in a very, like bring yourself to a place before you get out of bed where you can say good morning in a positive way. And I find that to be super important because a lot of the times I go, like, if I don't do that, I have this like, Oh, I'm saying the same words in the morning or she's saying, and I'm like, no, like I'm here.
I'm having, there's a goal to this. And I'm, I'm spreading positivity now. I'm like, hey, good morning, like, how's your morning? She's like, yeah, and we're already starting on some, some good footing. Yeah. You know, and you don't have to keep it up the whole day. It's just, just the beginning of it. Yeah. And I find that it has a huge effect on my happiness level.
Erick: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, basically that's, that's kind of, same idea. Yeah, just that, just reminding yourself about something to be grateful for. Yeah.
Ori: Yeah, for sure. I also do like, in the shower, I do like eight things I'm, I'm grateful for every day. That works.
Erick: Well, and that's the one thing I really like about stoicism is it's it's about just trying to practice things every day to have a better life.
And, and because they, the principles are, like I said, they're fairly simple, doing them well takes work, but you can do even just doing a little bit every day can bring such great benefits to your life. And I'd say you don't have to be perfect at it by any means, but if you're, it's never about perfection because perfection is.
I mean, again, there's no, there's no real way to define what perfection is. It's always just, are you moving in a good direction? And I think that that's, that's the answer.
Ori: Tell you what I think the problem with stoicism is, is branding wise. So I have a friend and he, for many years, he's like, oh, I'm a stoic.
And I, I don't, I didn't like that. I didn't like that. I'm a stoic. I'm like, what are you, a fucking Jedi? Like, you're not, just like, oh, I don't, I don't like it. There's something about it. And also, he's like, he's like this type of person, of course. He's like So I didn't know what that meant and then also he's like this type of person that sometimes he pushes things in So I'm just like the minute someone says I'm anything I'm already getting like critical about it, you know But so I think the and all this Marcus Aurelius, it's like it just sounds like gladiator, you know I'm a stoic, I have swords.
It's just that it's just bad branding, you know And I think that first of all saying I'm practicing stoicism I think is way better. Yeah You Okay. Because it's, because it's exactly what you just said, which is every day I'm doing something to try and get my life better and it's along the lines of Stoicism.
Yeah. So that's the thing. This is a big difference. You know? And yeah, and I would ask like, what would you, for someone who wants to start trying to practice Stoicism, what would you say first steps, first good steps would be? Just out of interest.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, one of the biggest things.
And it's one of the hardest things, is again, understanding what you can control. And being able to look at that very clearly, and to stop trying to control things you can't. Because that's
Ori: So what would be the tools to, to, to focus on that, for example?
Erick: Well, I think a lot of it is What, is thinking about what are the things that we try to control the most in our lives that we don't have control over.
And usually that's other people. That's the biggest thing most of us try to control that we can't. We want to control what other people think about us. We want to control our reputation. We want people to like us. We want all, you know, we want this person to think we're great. We don't want our partners to be mad at us.
And rather than actually trying to communicate with them, we get mad at them and saying, stop being mad at me. And we get more and more angry with them. And for me, stoicism has been super helpful because I recognize the reason why I was angry about a lot of things or was easily set off by a lot of things.
It was because I was trying to control them. I was trying to use anger to control these things around me. 'cause that's what my dad, that's what my dad did. And so that was my example. And so it was, it was kind of hardwired in that way from, from years of abuse of when anything didn't go the way he wanted to.
We, you know, immediately got angry and hit us and, and things like that. And so it's, it was really hard with him because when he was good. Things were great. He was funny. He was kind. He was smart. He was generous. When things were bad. Ooh It's rough. Yeah, it was kind of like living with an alcoholic, but he didn't drink alcohol I mean I almost wish he did because then he could come home and go whoop.
Dad's on one tonight Let's you know, you can see the bottles or smell the booze and and the other thing Yeah, he was a closet bisexual and in the Mormon Church
Ori: Wow Harsh. Yeah, that's exactly the problem with these kind of things. Yeah. This is the way the world, no, it doesn't because why? Because you can do other things.
Yes. It's obvious. I don't ever get that about people who like are like preaching God. It's like if God is everything, why is not the possibility of everything also God, like why this? Exactly. It's just very, I don't think, I don't think people really believe in it. It's just one structure.
Erick: Yeah, exactly. And I think that I think it was Krishnamurti, I think was the author.
He has this book called the last freedom and really in the last freedom is really that You as a person need to realize you can do anything you want in this life. You have the choice to do anything that you want now You can't control the consequences for your choices, but you have the right to choose to live exactly the way you want You're not happy in your marriage.
You can leave You do not have to stay You do not have to make that choice. You do not have to work the job your parents want you to, or society wants you to. You can be a bum and live on the street. You have that choice. There are consequences with those choices. But you have that ability. And that's really hard for a lot of people to internalize.
Like, no, no, no, we can't all just do what we want. Like, yes you can. It can cause massive disorder in a lot of different ways in society and other things like that. So you have to think about what are the consequences of me doing exactly what I want to do or anything that I want to do. But you're allowed to do that.
Ori: I think it's safeguards people from making decisions that exactly that they don't want to deal with the consequences of, which is, I think it's not just because they want to do those things. They just don't want to think those things through. It's scary to think for a second about about anything.
About, like, what would happen if I was to Like, for example, even like things that we're already doing. I have this whole bit I'm working on with politicians and stuff like that. Everybody complains about them. What would you do if they disappeared? Would you do their job? Do you even know what they're doing?
They are the wolves, we are the sheep, because we've elected them to be the wolves. We want to sit here, you know, we just want to go, Netflix. That's what we want to do, you know. But, but, the point of it is, like, we don't even want to know. It's the same thing why we're angry with vegans. Because vegans are telling us things that we know that we don't want to know.
But if the book says eating meat is fine, then I don't have to listen to the voices in my head talking about morality at all. Because the book says this is moral, and I want to think about it. Because I know on some level it's not moral, it doesn't sit well with what I perceive morality to be. But I'm an amoral person in those respects, but I don't want to admit it to myself.
Yeah. And that solves that entire problem. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of kind of rules do that for people, and there's comfort in that. There's comfort in that.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I had somebody ask me one time on, or they posted a thing on Reddit saying, What's the difference between Stoicism and a religion?
And I said, all right, I'll take that on that, let me explain what it is. Stoicism is a bunch of tools and principles that are just applied in any situation in life. It's not dogma. It's not telling you, you have to do this and this and this and this is saying, if you want to live a happier life, you want to feel like a better person, a moral person and be able to weather these things that are really hard.
Here's some tools you can use to do it. Yeah. Try them, see if they work. And I said, so there's no, you, there's no, there's no prescriptive law.
Ori: It's not, you can't be gay because Marcus Aurelius said you cannot be gay. Exactly.
Erick: I said there's no prescriptive things of like you have to do these things in order to be a stoic.
It's, it's a, It's not declarative. It's, it's this kind of like, here's the idea. Here's some ideas. If you follow these ideas, you're just going to find that you're going to be happier if you live this way. If you practice courage, if you practice wisdom, if you practice self discipline, if you practice justice, which to me, justice is how do you treat other people, try to treat other people?
Well, that's what justice to me says about is how do you interact with your fellow man? And it's so stoicism is just like, just try these things and see if they make you happier.
Ori: Let's go back to the example that you gave. I agree with you that you cannot control other people, but you can try and influence what people think of you.
Sure, absolutely. But within that realm, there is a whole level of debate with yourself. How much am I being myself? How much am I skewing towards the other person? How much does even the other person like it when I suck up to them? Or if I'm being myself, am I being too aloof? Am I being too, like you know?
And those are also hard tools to it's very hard to look at yourself from the outside and realize who you are and what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. Also, some people really like you and some people really don't. Yeah, and that's okay. That's really annoying. Yeah. Because you can't get any clear data from this.
Erick: Exactly. Well, like my, I was with my brother this last weekend in Frankfurt and, We've always had, we've been, we're, we've always been close, but also had some, you know, and we're brothers, you know, it's just kind of how it is. Just as we've gotten older and wiser, and I, there were always things that he would say where I'd just be like, man, he, because he doesn't have a filter, he doesn't have much of a filter.
Like, if he thinks it, it comes out of his mouth. And when I was younger, you know, I was much more trying to be the good Mormon and do all the righteous things. And he was the one who was like, ah, brah, you know. doing whatever he wanted. And I would always be like, oh, you're a bad person. And yeah, I was very judgy.
And I know that. But it was funny. He was, he was talking, he was telling me some story and he was, he was helping somebody out with something, but he was still giving them shit about things. And, and they go, you know what? You're a likable asshole. And he's like, yep, that's pretty much what I am. I just laughed.
I'm like, you know, but he's more than willing to just admit and he goes, yeah, I'm kind of a son of a bitch sometimes. And I'm okay with that. Not everybody, I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but, but his, he's got friends who are so like loyal to him because he is exactly who he is and he rubs people the wrong way. There's some people who do not like him because he's a lovable asshole and but he knows that yeah And he's accepted himself for who he is like that and I can have a lot of respect for that and we had a great time and really connected and for me a lot of that judginess that I used to have when I was younger I don't have anymore because I've worked on letting go of that And, and also he's softened up as he's gotten wiser, as he's gotten older about things.
And he's less judgy about things too. And so we were able to get him together and we had a great time. And it was, it was really a lot of fun. But I love the way you put that. It's just like, you're a real likable asshole. Like, yeah, there's nothing wrong with being that.
Ori: I feel I mean, I feel that way sometimes.
But I don't think I'm I think I'm an asshole. I think I'm, I used to be way more blunt about things. You know? I think moving to Europe has really changed my perception, but it's not just that. It's just that you work in TV and there's like a level of like, I have my authenticity, but also I'm aware that I might be wrong.
And at the same time I have to get along with all these people that I wouldn't necessarily hang out with and yet I don't want to betray myself. So it's always this kind of weird, I think recently what I've realized is I have, if I want to say something. I, I will say it because I have this I have this compulsion, I cannot not say what I perceive to be true.
But, I've learned to be nice in the way that I say it. Be polite, not nice, like, you know, so Be kind. Be kind, yeah. Yeah. Don't, like, I, I attempt not to create suffering. But at the same time speaking of Buddhist stuff, so at the same time I want to be authentic. I want to be real. It's not that, Oh, this person must know my opinion about them.
That's not the issue. But the issue is like, if there is an opinion I want to express, not necessarily about the person, but generally then I would like to express it because I feel like I'm entitled to it, but I feel like this is who I am and this is what I see in this, what I would like to do. And, and yeah, and I try to wrap it in such a way that my point will come across.
I don't feel On the inside that I oppressed myself on one hand and on the other hand that I didn't really cause any harm or pain unless The situation calls for some conflict. So recently I'm trying to get better at actually at conflict and realizing the conflict is not the worst thing in the world.
It's pretty good actually. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's necessary. Exactly. So I'm, I'm trying to get better at that, ironically from Israel, but, which I think probably is, is part of the problems anyway. But but yeah, there is, there is this for me, there's this constant. And, and when people look at me on the side, I think, for example on stage I'm likable, I think I'm I think people identify with me, like I, I'm very, I'm very, like I talk about a lot of dark stuff, but I will say it in a way that will include people rather than exclude, I'm trying, I'm not trying to shock anybody, I'm not trying to say something dark, I'm like, I look at it from a perspective of exactly what we've talked about, like, There's dark shit in the world.
This is just life, and let's, if we don't make fun of it, we don't bring light to the situation, then we're just gonna suffer. So that's what I'm trying to do, but I also come from that attitude. Of like, I'm not gonna try and shock you with saying words, I'm just, and And I do have some tension over I mean, it becomes more precise and professional when it's on stage, Cause then I'm like What did I say that where I lost them over here?
So I'm not gonna not say what the point of what I wanted to say But I will find a different way of saying it so it'll be palatable because my goal is to have a conversation.
Erick: Yeah Well, it's like for me. I I the way that I kind of see that is I try to practice radical candor as much as possible. And to me, candor is a little bit different than just being honest.
Okay. Because you can, you can be honest and tell the truth and everything like that. But candor is like, can I be candid for a minute here? It's very different than just saying, well, I assume you were being, you know, can I be honest here? It's like, well, haven't you been honest? Haven't you been telling? You know,
Ori: What's the difference between candid and honest?
Erick: To me, honesty is that everything you're saying is factually true. Candor is what's behind the scenes. It's pulling the curtain open and going, Okay, this is what you see, that's being honest. Let me show you what's really going on. It's much more vulnerable. It's much more about saying, This is what I've been really thinking.
This is what's really going on. Even though what I told you was true, there was a veneer on it. There was, there was a polish to it. Candor is like, here's more of the raw stuff. And so for me, candor is, is like a deeper step of honesty is kind of the way that I see it. But with can, but with everything, you kind of need to make sure you understand the opposite and the positive opposite.
And for me, the opposite of candor and the positive way is discretion. And so if you practice radical candor with people, you also have to have discretion and that's tact. That's knowing sometimes you don't need to say it, or sometimes you How you say it is important and you, you land it gently and go, by the way, I just need to tell you, you're a total asshole, but I love you anyway.
You know? And so it's, it's kind of the same thing. And so I, I, I try to think about that when I, when I deal with people, it's like, I want to tell you the truth. I want to be the, I want to show you the vulnerable truth, not just I'm telling you the truth, but I'm showing you the truth. Showing you something that's a little bit deeper than that.
This is the vulnerable thing of things, but also trying to use discretion at the same time.
Ori: Interesting. Can I be candid? Absolutely. I'm trying to get some basic tools to get into stoicism, because I like the idea. I like the, I like what I'm hearing about it. I don't, I think I understand, like it's a bit like geography.
Like, I know where major areas are, I think, I think. But I don't think I have the the stepping stones. Like what you just said, for example, about other people. Okay, I'm thinking about it. Or certain things we discussed. I'm like, yeah, I do that. But then I don't see the stepping stones towards getting into it, for example.
Just starting off in it.
Erick: I actually did an episode about three weeks ago called Beginning Stoicism where I Oh, just listen to that. Yeah. So that, that right there I think is a good place to start.
Ori: Should have listened to that episode then. Exactly. Waste everybody's time.
Erick: Exactly. But, I think a lot of it is, well, like you said earlier, it's a lot of, to me, I consider Stoicism as kind of Greco Roman Buddhism.
There are a lot of crossover because they came to the same conclusions, just understanding human behavior and, but a little bit less woo, if you will, and a little more rationality of things. And so the idea is that, you know, we're human beings, we have rationality, that's what makes us human. Homo sapiens as opposed to just being some other primate, is that we have the ability to, to, at least to a certain extent, think rationally as best we can.
Another thing that is really big on stoicism that I try to help people understand is that your perception of something is what causes the feelings that you have. It causes your distress. And they even say that in there. It's not the thing that bothers you, it's your perception of it. The way that you think about the situation bothers you.
Like you talked about this guy, your driver, he thought of his place where he crashed as his most comfortable place. It was his happy place. So when you look at it and go, God, that must be really uncomfortable. Why is he going to do that? And he looks at it and he's like, this is my comfy place. And he's all happy to be there.
Sleep in his car. Exactly. So for him, his perception on it was, this is my comfortable little, little safe space. Other people look at it and go, Oh, that would be terrible. I want my hotel bed. And then you need something much more than that. And so really your perception on almost anything can change how you are, how you feel about it and what you do about it.
Ori: So you change your own perception of things.
Erick: Yeah. That you choose your perception or you, at least you're aware of your perception. It's like, what am I thinking about this? That's, that's, what's the story that I'm telling myself about this situation. Like if somebody came up to you on the street, a simple thing of perception you had two people who are trying to get to work and they missed the bus.
One guy gets mad and he's flipping the bus driver off and he's all sorts of pissed off about it, you know, because he missed the bus and the bus driver continued on. And we've all had situations like that. His coworker is standing there and he just looks at it and you're like, eh, okay, whatever. Just smiles about it, goes to stand on the bench and starts looking around.
He's like, well, it's kind of a nice day today. And this is. Okay, and he's like, you know, hey, that's 15 more minutes. I get to chill out before I get to work. Hmm same situation And and so there you understand that it was they're just they're different perceptions on what it really meant. Yeah You know and people are like no no, but these things that happened to me They're the reason why I'm upset or because this person said this thing to me That's why I'm upset and it's like no it's because the story that you tell yourself about the situation about what the other person said.
That's what's making you upset.
Ori: But then what's the line between authenticity and perception? Because if you can change your perception of most anything, which I agree you can do and should do sometimes then how do you know that you're remaining authentic to yourself?
Erick: It's not about necessarily having to change your perception, because you can keep it.
It's about recognizing what your perception is. And recognizing that the way that you're thinking about that might be the thing that's causing you the distress that you don't want to feel. It's like you could be the cause of your own problem. Somebody said something mean about you and you're all worked up and upset about it.
Why? You're the one who's telling yourself this awful story about what they said. If you said, if it was some stranger who said something to you and you didn't really care, or it was somebody that you thought was an asshole and you didn't care about what it, they could say the exact same thing, and the story you would tell yourself is, Pfft, he's an asshole, I don't care.
It's only because you gave it weight.
Ori: So you have to look if your perception serves you or not.
Erick: Exactly. Because it could be that your perception is fine. That person said that awful thing, and I feel upset about that, and I want to feel upset about that.
Ori: You see, that's where anxiety kicks in a lot of times.
Because anxiety will hold on to the perception and say, Well, this perception has saved us many a times. You should never change this perception. Which is like, this is like how you know the brain is somewhat of a computer. Yeah. It's like, here are these files you shouldn't touch, and these ones. That's, that's true.
And I feel like in comedy there's somebody I met this woman once and she said she went to clowning school. And she asked her, like, if you have to tell me one thing that's really valuable from that. And she said, in comedy you don't, in clowning, you don't only have to agree to be the floor man, you have to enjoy it.
And that really spoke to me. You know, I was walking with my wife in Köln, which is a city in Germany. Just for the Americans. No. So I was walking there and I was and I was walking down the street and I farted. And two guys behind me laughed. Right, and my wife was kind of feeling a bit embarrassed about it.
And I was like, you know what, my job is to make people laugh. It doesn't matter if I'm on stage or off. I'm happy that they laughed at my fart. So, and it really changed, like, and that's something actively, like, I don't mind, and I think, by the way, it's a pretty powerful tool, not just for comedians, but generally, like, one of the things which I fundamentally disagree with is if people laugh at me, that means I'm weak.
I think that's, that's, that's a, that's a very common perception, by the way. And and once you change that, once, like, on stage, it doesn't matter what they're laughing at. Like, I'm instinctually funny in certain ways. And if my goal is to make you laugh, because I think you'll feel better, I'll feel better.
It doesn't matter if you're laughing at me or with me. Everybody's making this really, like, especially in comedy, this really important distinction. You're laughing at me or with me. I'm like, what does it matter? They're laughing. People are having a good time. It doesn't matter at all. And, And you can't control it anyway.
Yeah, and you can't control it anyway. And you shouldn't attempt to try. I mean, you can, you can, you can guide the laughter. You can try and play with it. But This whole concept, I feel like this is another thing when people are Connecting laughter to disrespect, which I think is an awful thing to do because you basically said I think John Cleese was saying something about that There's a difference between being respectful and pompous Like if you're not be if you if you if they can't laugh at you, you're being you're a dictator You're being pompous.
You're saying like I am you cannot touch me like you're over serious And I feel like that probably stems from, I don't know, I'm not a psychologist, but it probably stems from childhood when we couldn't handle it. Where somebody was laughing at you and you thought, oh shit, I'm in social danger right now.
I'm being demoted.
Erick: Yeah, I had a hard time with that because my last name is Cloward and I used to get called coward all the time. And the kids would laugh at it and I would feel so hurt and so offended and I had a hard time with sarcasm growing up because I got picked on quite a bit. Because I was a little bit smaller, and also because of my name and stuff like that.
And so my ex wife was, she was fairly sarcastic, and it was hard for me, and she was trying to play. Her sarcasm wasn't mean, it was her play, but for me, all sarcasm was hurtful. Yeah. Because, also because my dad would use sarcasm as a hurtful thing. It was never a funny, playful thing. And my ex wife was, you know, her sarcasm was trying to be play, and it wasn't until like two years after we were divorced, where I finally like I was reading an article about something like that and I was like, Oh, I never stopped.
Oh, geez. I always felt attacked when she was being sarcastic. She was trying to play with things. She was trying to make, you know, some kind of witticism or something. Yeah, like a, you know, She was trying to play with things and I was so serious and so Defensive all the time because I've grown up being very defensive all the time because the church is always telling you you're a bad person My dad is always telling me.
I'm a bad person Kids are teasing me. So I always felt like I was this bad person I was super defensive about a lot of things and it wasn't I guess that went two years later. I'm like she was trying to play
Ori: I'm gonna be here with it. First of all, I had this image of you and like if you need a if you need a You Image for your podcast, you just have like a yourself and kinda like a, I don't know what the body language is, but something like, but you have an S for stoicism, like , like a shitty superman.
You know what I mean? Like you're dealing with it not because of your bra and your, but you're dealing with it the way through stoicism. Yeah. Astro Pues you want, there you go. That's not bad. Yeah, exactly. But what was I saying? Ah, when I got here so Israel, we don't really have banter. We have, we laugh at each other, we laugh a lot, like, in Israel, because Jews, you know, we deal with tragedy through laughter, but we don't have banter.
We don't, we don't pick at each other. And when I came here and I met all these British people and the Irish people and Australians and everybody's like, you know, I felt attacked in the beginning. I didn't understand what was going on. People being critical of me, what's happening. I And and because I hang out with comics a lot, then somebody made it clear to me at some point, I think it was Brendan actually, my partner from the shows, Epic Comedy Berlin, check him out online, I've got a website.
So, he he told me that, he was like, well you're being a little bitch essentially. So I was like, ah, okay, they're doing something else. And then I asked him, what is banter? And then I realized what banter is, I was like, ah, okay. And there is this one comic in the scene here, he's he's a young comic and his name is Eunice.
He's a funny guy, but when I started getting into this banter thing and started to shit at people as well, la, la, la, la, la, he was, he's such a guy that you can tell him anything and he's just like, ha, ha, he laughs at himself. He takes it, he's, he's, he finds it funny. And then he laughs at himself. And you're like, this is the best punching bag I've ever had.
But also, he's enjoying it. So, and it also kind of like, there's a limit. Of how much you can do it. Because you're like, alright. But at the same time, it's fun because this guy's enjoying the situation. And then, even if he's not that good yet at punching you back, It creates this nice feeling for everybody.
And I realized, yeah, that's what you need to do. You need to kind of accept the fact that you're a piece of shit like everybody else. And allow them to point that out. And also not take it very seriously. Like, there's something about comedy. It's like, you're ugly, right? Nobody means that you're ugly, but you are also ugly.
Everybody's also all of these things. Yeah. And and that's, I think like, if you grab on to that idea, then you start to get fucked up. If you're like, oh, am I ugly? You go home and you're like, ah. Just let it go. Just let it be. Or am I dumb? Yes, you're also, but it doesn't matter.
Erick: Yeah, and that's where, again, he had a great perspective on things.
His perspective was anybody can make fun of him and he could choose to be offended or not. Yeah. And he chose he wouldn't be offended. He would laugh along with them because there's a little bit of truth in it and that's okay.
Ori: Yeah. Yeah. It's sadly now he's dead. No, he's not. He's not. But I hope if he hears this, he'll laugh at this.
Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting.
Erick: Yeah. So, yeah, I, I really appreciate our conversation on this. I've been enjoying looking at stoicism like through the comedic lens of things and just being able to laugh at the ridiculousness of life and, and the episode, well, the episode that I had a couple of weeks ago, it was, you know talking stoicism It was inspired because of, I came to your comedy show.
Oh no. I was having a crappy day, I was just in this, this kind of sour mood and I couldn't shake it. For whatever reason, I was just having a really rough time, and I was trying to work on the podcast episode for that week. It was a Sunday, and I was just like, not able to shake this mood. And so, I'm like, you know what, let's just go out for the evening.
So I looked on Meetup, saw the comedy show, and I'm like, comedy, there we go, that's what I need. And Just going to that and laughing for two hours. And I sat next to this really cool German couple that had just been walking by. Oh. And Who's the other comedian? I forgot his name. Partik. Partik. He just said, Hey, we've got a comedy show in English and you know, it's 7:30 and so they're like, Oh, okay.
Ori: Yeah. And so
That's fun.
Erick: So they were like, Oh, okay. And you know, they were really nice and we didn't, yeah, we're like, okay, they might come back. And they, they, they showed up and I sat next to him. That's amazing when people do that. Yeah. We sat next to him and we were all laughing.
We were having a great time and I chatted with him for quite a while and we were all just, I mean, it was a small crowd. I think there were only like 10 people. Yeah. Yeah. But it was a great crowd. Everybody was having so much fun. We were all laughing and filling the room and you guys were great. And it just set my mood for that whole week.
The next week just felt so much better and so much lighter. And it just, just squashed that sour mood. And so I had to write that episode. I'm like, this is what I'm going to do. And wrote that episode and it was pretty well received. And I really liked it because I'm just like, you know, stoicism. Everybody always thinks it's all so serious and all this stuff.
And I'm pretty serious on there because I'm trying to talk about how to approach hard things in your life. Yeah. But here's another way to approach hard things in your life. Learn to laugh about them.
Ori: I gotta say, for me, when I go to the show and I do the same, like, I perform, I feel the same way, like, I just saw today Facebook likes to remind you how old you are, so it's like, seven years ago you've written this, and I was like and I literally wrote today, like, seven years ago today, I had a really shitty day, but then I had a great show, and the show trumped the day.
And I really feel that that's that works, like it works both ways because comedy is, is, my dad was a doctor and he's dead. Which is, I like, I wrote a joke after this saying, well that means he's a bad doctor. It's the one thing you're not supposed to do. Anyway, so the so what he used to say is like, any patient that'll come into his to, to his practice, And is smiling, will 100 percent of the time get over anything that he has, any problem they have quicker than people who are not.
And when he used to call me he used to ask me, are you, I can't, he used to say on the phone, I can't hear you smiling. And I have on my phone every day at 5. 30 I have a reminder to smile. And the show that I'm doing, the hour that I'm practicing, where you came was our little lab where we're practicing our, like, longer sets.
So I called it, for now at least, it's called Laughing Matter. Because I do think that it, it just lightens your whole existence. And there's something about also knowing that you're not alone. If, when you're in a room and people are laughing it, it creates this subconscious confirmation that we are kind of similar and which is, which, which I think is beautiful to me and is also why I don't like when people say, Oh, you shouldn't laugh about certain things because that's a saying.
You shouldn't treat certain problems. You go to the doctor and say, No, I'm sorry. I'm not going to touch your asshole. Sorry about that. We don't do that here. It smells, you know, it's not popular thing to do. So no, you should go everywhere and laugh about everything. Because what you're trying to do unless you're an asshole, but then that's not funny being like a real asshole That's not funny But if you if you're really trying to get in in in somewhere that's dark and deep Then that will make you feel lighter about yourself.
And I think it's always good to laugh yourself Always good to laugh with others And you can also laugh at others. One of the things that I, that I I mean, there's a border there between being an asshole and being exactly like, like comedians are shitting on each other, you know? It's like, I was thinking about it.
Why do I love stupid reality shows? Me and my wife, we watch Temptation Island. We love that show. It's such a good show. And there was no one there, at least from Season 2, but also Season 1, but let's say, that has not understood what the format is, why they're there, and what the benefit of everybody involved is.
But, it is so much fun for them. They get the Instagram followers and the money. We get to judge other people and go, Look at their relationship, it sucks. And, and the producers get to go, Oh, I like this money that comes in from royalties. That's, that's what everybody gets to do. And that's fine, and that's fine.
And I think that I think that we should allow comedy to seep into as much, as many parts of our lives as possible.
Erick: Agreed. Agreed. Like the, like the old philosopher said, you should be seeking eudaimonia, which means a good spirit.
Ori: I like that. Probably had to do with wine.
Erick: Yeah. Sometimes wine does put you in a good spirit.
A good spirit for a good spirit.
Ori: And also, even though this is something I've been working with recently, there is a level of like apologetic ness, but it's not real. It's not real. So the standards people have, which I feel like it's, this is not to say that I am a com as a comic, don't want always to be better and the best comedic 'cause that's absolutely what I want.
But I also feel like it was just even not comedy shows just left. From just anything. Like we have weird standards about our own fun. You know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm not gonna laugh at it. Why? Like, there's, this is a new bit I'm just, I'm working on where I go like, I go like, why is that even there? And then I do something stupid.
I go like, And on some level, As the kid inside you knows that's hilarious. There's something hilarious about it. There's something funny about stupid shit that there's no reason to laugh at. But we're just sitting there going, now say something political. Because we've created this barrier between what it is okay to laugh at as adults, and what it is to laugh at as children.
And I think that barrier needs to slowly dissipate. Because that's what you want. That's what really, when you go to comedy, that's what you want, really. So, of course, it's my job as a comedian to get you there, but it's also helpful if you let go a little bit. You know, which is, I think, why people take certain drugs, probably.
But, that's what I'm saying, that there is, if I had to say two things, it's one, it's those things. Like, let comedy seep into anything, and also, just let, just laugh at stupid shit. Cause why the fuck not?
Erick: Yeah. And life is just full of it, and so you can either, Amor fati means to love your fate. So you, meaning, love your fate.
Fate. So it means that life's just gonna throw stuff at you. Life is gonna happen. And you can love it or hate it, but life doesn't care. The universe doesn't care. It does not give a shit. So you can hate it all you want, and the universe is like, So what? Still gonna dish it out at you. And so you can either just go, Okay, I love this.
And what better way to learn to love something than to be able to laugh?
Ori: Yeah, that's a normal thing. I feel like after this podcast, you're going to get letters and people saying, I like the thing, but gay people are still not okay in my book.
Erick: Oh, I'm sorry. I occasionally get some stuff like that. Like I wrote, I did one about talking about understanding your privilege in life.
You know, because it took me a long time to understand all the things that I just got because I was a white male in a Christian culture in the richest nation in the world. Okay. And, you know, had good high schools, all of these things, middle class, all these things that I got that I did nothing for, I just happened to get by virtue of my birth.
And I just talked about it, just saying, hey, there's nothing wrong with having privileges. Just know that you have them, understand them, and so you don't judge other people because they're not like you, because they didn't get the same things that you got. And do what you can to help those who don't.
That's it. You know, I wasn't, wasn't super preachy, I was just saying, understand your situation, understand that you got lucky, or maybe you didn't get lucky, but you probably got luckier than somebody else. Because there's always somebody lower than you who got worse things. And I got a couple of emails on that, how dare you, and you know, and you're going off on this political woke agenda and all this stuff, and I said, that's not it at all, you missed the whole point.
Plus, you're not being very stoic if you're writing into me being so nasty because something offended you, you chose to be offended. Sure. Sure. And then the other one was, I mentioned during the middle of the pandemic, there was one where I was talking in my podcast and I said, you know, with this going on, if you go out and you are, you know, not wearing a mask and you aren't getting a vaccine, your behavior is being selfish because you're not taking into account how you're affecting other people.
Sure. So I got some nasty emails about that. Of course. Same kind of thing.
Ori: Anything that's political, people will will, will, will respond immediately from there, especially Americans. Yeah. From there. No, this is the left and this is the right, and if you said this and I'm actually from there, just shut up.
Erick: Yep. Well. I think it's getting time for us to wrap this up, because I know you have some plans for the evening, and my MacBook is just about to run out of power, so
Ori: Look at that. It's a good time. Even the MacBook is like, shut the fuck up.
Erick: No, it's been a great conversation, so I've really enjoyed having you on here, thank you.
Ori: Thank you, thank you so much, and thanks for coming to the comedy show as well.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, it was a lot of fun. Like I said, it really reset my mood, and the last couple weeks have just been better just because of that. I don't know what I was so sour about, or what it was bothering me, but I remember waking up Monday and it just felt better.
Ori: Well, glad to hear that, man. That's, when you say that, it fills me up with joy.
Erick: Yeah. All right, so that's it. Yeah for today's show. I really appreciate already being on here and thank you for having me Yeah, thank you. So and don't forget to laugh because life is a joke.
Ori: Are you gonna have my Instagram on there?
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, I will put some ways to contact Ori In the show notes of the podcast episodes to make sure you follow him on Instagram. It'd be really great.
Erick: Yeah. Me too, man. Yeah. All right. Bye, everybody.
Bye. And that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Ori Halevy, and make sure that you follow him on social media at Big Old Jew and Epic Berlin Comedy Show. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
Do you think that you have strengths and weaknesses? What if I told you that you don’t? Today I want to talk about how strengths and weaknesses are all a matter of perspective and context.
"Strive for excellence, not perfection, because we often find excellence in our imperfections."
—Harriet Braiker
Attributes, Characteristics, and Context
We all have things about us that we think of as strengths and weaknesses. Maybe it’s certain abilities or behaviors that we have that we’re proud of and others that we’d rather put in a shoebox and hide in the attic and hope that nobody will find them, especially ourselves. But what if we’re wrong about thinking of ourselves this way? What if it’s the way that we perceive these things that cause us so much self-doubt and anxiety?
The other day I was listening to a podcast interview with Simon Sink, and he said something that really hit me like running into a brick wall. He said:
“I hate the conversation about what are your strengths and what are your weaknesses because everything requires context. You don’t have strengths or weaknesses, you have characteristics and attributes. And in the right context, those are strengths, and in the wrong context, in the wrong environment, those are weaknesses. Always. So it’s better to know who you are and look for environments where those things are advantages.”
And while this is something that I’ve always known, but either I was just in the right mindset, or just the way that Simon put it, or probably both, made me stop the video and think about that idea for a minute. What if we’ve been going about this all wrong? What if rather than looking at your so called weaknesses as that, weaknesses, and just started viewing them as something more neutral that is helpful in one context but not in another?
Simon then later give an example about how if he had to work on a project alone, he would either create something of very low quality or the stress it would cause would take a toll on his health because he works better in teams. He knows that he functions far better surrounded by people that are able to help him because that’s one of his attributes—leading and working with a team.
Shifting Perspective
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way."
— Marcus Aurelius
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
— Albert Einstein
The Stoics teach us a crucial lesson about perception. They tell us that the quality of our lives is determined not by what happens to us but by how we choose to see it. In other words, our strengths and weaknesses are two sides of the same coin; In every weakness, there lies a strength.
So, let's apply this wisdom to our own traits, shall we? Let’s turn the lens and view our characteristics in a new light, discovering how what we see as vulnerabilities might actually be veiled virtues. Let’s take some common characteristics and attributes that some of us have and reframe them to see where these traits might be just the thing to help us find success and find little more happiness by just being ourselves.
The Overthinker
Let’s say that you have a tendency to to overthink things. Maybe your mind spins like a hamster on a wheel and you find yourself going down rabbit holes when you get focused on an idea. While this may cause some frustration, distraction, and sleepless nights, in contexts that require detailed planning and foresight, the ability to think of all possible outcomes becomes a gift that helps avoid possible pitfalls and see opportunities that we might have missed. Overthinkers are the ones that leave no stone unturned and help us chart the optimal path forward.
The Introvert
"There is a great strength in being silent and listening; this is where the roots of empathetic leadership grow."
— Susan Cain
Often, introversion is seen as a social setback, but what if I told you it’s actually your stealthy strength? In a world that can’t stop talking, the quiet among us are the Olympic-grade listeners. Stoicism urges us to value the power of listening—a skill that’s absolutely golden in relationships, counseling, and leadership. While everyone else is trying to be heard, you’re absorbing, understanding, and, ultimately, wielding the power of knowledge.
Introversion is often mistaken as a barrier to leadership and dynamism, but it actually holds within it the seeds of empathetic leadership. Introverts, with their preference for deep thought and meaningful one-on-one connections, can be uniquely positioned to lead with empathy, understanding, and a keen ear for listening. In an age where leadership is evolving beyond the loud and charismatic, the introverted leader builds teams that feel seen, heard, and valued.
The Risk-Averse
Playing it safe is often frowned upon, especially in our “go big or go home” culture. But let’s turn the tables and look at it through a more Stoic perspective. The risk-averse individual, those who prefer the known paths to the potential perils of uncharted territory. While often criticized for a lack of boldness, their cautious approach makes them the conscientious conservators of our world. They’re the master of calculated risks, and their cautious approach gives them the ability to foresee and mitigate risks, to plan with thoroughness and care.
In situations that demand thorough risk assessment—like financial investments, legal strategies, or safety protocols—this so-called weakness becomes the cornerstone of wisdom. Where others gamble, the risk-averse navigate with a map and a compass, turning potential pitfalls into well-navigated journeys. It is not the boldness of the steps we take, but the soundness of the path we choose that ensures our progress.
The Stubborn
“Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail."
— Ralph Waldo Emerson
Stubbornness gets a bad rap, often seen as the refusal to be flexible. Yet, under a different light, this so-called stubborn streak can be a laser-focused determination. When channeled correctly, it becomes the relentless drive needed to bring projects across the finish line or to stand firm in one’s values against peer pressure. An unwillingness to quit when things are tough, and having the strength to persevere can be the thing that helps you succeed when others other abandon ship. When others dither or flip-flop, being a stubborn yet principled person can help you be the lighthouse, guiding ships with unwavering conviction.
The Daydreamer
Caught daydreaming again? Instead of scolding yourself for not having both feet on the ground, consider this: Some of the greatest inventions and artworks were born from minds that dared to drift. Stoicism teaches us the value of perspective, and the daydreamer’s perspective is one that reaches beyond the immediate horizon. In roles that demand creativity and innovation, the daydreamer is king. While others see what is, the daydreamer sees what could be, painting the canvas of the future with strokes of imagination.
The Procrastinator
Next up, procrastination – the thief of time, or so they say. I certainly fall into the category of being a procrastinator, and find it challenging to get things done early even though I know it would be lot less stressful. I get distracted easily, because I’m so interested and curious about so many things. Yet, what if I told you that the habitual dawdler is actually a creative strategist in disguise? Procrastination can be the brain’s way of allowing ideas to marinate, leading to bursts of innovation and creativity. When the deadline looms, I often pull out solutions that a more time-efficient approach might never have uncovered. Here, the eleventh-hour rush becomes a crucible for brilliance.
Embracing Who You Are
"The gem cannot be polished without friction, nor man perfected without trials."
— Chinese Proverb
So, how do we apply this Stoic reframing, turning perceived weaknesses into strengths? It starts with a shift in perception. Instead of labeling our traits as inherently good or bad, we view them as tools in our kit, each with its moment to shine.
1. Context Is Key: Before you judge a trait as a weakness, ask, “In what context might this be a strength?” This is where the virtue of wisdom comes into play. Think of your traits as tools that need to be used in the right situation. Remember, a spoon might seem like a weak choice for cutting steak—until you’re served soup.
2. Balance Your Portfolio: Just like a savvy investor diversifies their portfolio, diversify your traits. Lean into your strengths, but don’t shy away from those so-called weaknesses. They’re your hidden assets.
3. Reframe Your Narrative: Stoicism teaches us the power of our internal narrative. Change yours to highlight the positive aspects of your traits. “I’m not shy; I’m a master listener.” See? Sounds cooler already.
4. Experiment and Observe: Life’s the lab, and you’re the scientist. Experiment with leaning into your different traits in various contexts. Observe the outcomes. You might be surprised at what you discover.
5. Vive la Différence: Appreciate your differences and don’t compare yourself with others. We all have different traits that make us better at some things than others. We need the differences to make a more complete, interesting, and dynamic world. If we were all exactly the same, the world would be a very uninteresting place.
6. Embrace Growth: Finally, remember that growth is a Stoic’s game. Your traits aren’t set in stone. They’re malleable, capable of being honed into sharper, stronger versions of themselves.
Conclusion
In the grand tapestry of our life, each thread—each trait and characteristic—plays a role in the larger pattern. What we perceive as weaknesses are often strengths waiting for their moment in the spotlight, asking for a change in perspective and a bit of Stoic wisdom to shine.
So, the next time you catch yourself bemoaning a personal flaw, remember the Stoic. With a bit of context, creativity, and a shift in perspective, you can turn that flaw into your signature strength and most prized asset. After all, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not about the cards you’re dealt; it’s about how you play the hand.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
Do you think that Stoics are too serious and all business? Do you think that if you adopt Stoic principles that you can’t have fun? Today I want to talk about humor and some of the misconceptions of Stoicism.
“It’s better for us to laugh at life than to cry over it.”
— Seneca
When you picture a Stoic, you might imagine someone with the emotional range of a sloth, but surprise! The Stoics weren't the ancient world's equivalent of grumpy cat. They actually had quite a bit to say about living "according to nature," and let's be real, what's more natural than snorting milk out of your nose from laughing too hard? Exactly.
So, how does humor fit into Stoicism?
The Stoics often talked about achieving eudaimonia, also translated as ‘good spirit’, which for the Stoics is about reducing negative emotions, and cultivating positive emotions. Since we are emotional creatures, we aren’t expected to not have emotions, and for me, having a good laugh certainly helps me get closer to having a ‘good spirit’.
Absurdity of Life
Because stoicism is about trying to see the world for exactly what it is, we can laugh at the absurdities of life. Seneca was all about chuckling at life's curveballs when he said, "Fortune is like that drunk friend who tries to help but ends up knocking over the lamp." Life is unpredictable, so why not have a laugh when things go sideways?
When you think about it, this is what Amor Fati is all about. It’s about not just accepting everything that happens in life, but loving everything that comes our way, and what better way is there to love everything that comes your way when you find humor in even the darkest times?
When we take things too seriously, we often get stuck ruminating and stressing out over things that are small or even imagined. When we get stuck in this mindset, our thinking becomes more narrow as response to stress, which it makes it hard for us to make better decisions. In these situations, often times the best thing we can do is laugh about it. Lightening our mood helps us relax which in turn helps us think more positively and be more open to possibilities.
The Stoics recognized that joy is not the same thing as being frivolous. They understood that joy is part of a well-rounded life. The Stoics themselves practiced self-deprecating humor in order to not take themselves or life too seriously. Epictetus was known to have a very dry and ironic wit. You can totally picture Epictetus cracking a smile and reminding us that just because we're after virtue, doesn't mean we can't enjoy a good meme. When talking about death, he once said, “I have to die. If it is now, well then I die now; if later, then now I will take my lunch, since the hour for lunch has arrived – and dying I will tend to later.”
It was reported that Chrysippus literally died from laughing at the sight of his intoxicated donkey trying to eat figs. Marcus Aurelius, the emperor of Rome, once cracked, "I get up in the morning because the universe isn't done with me; also, someone has to feed the ducks." Keeping yourself grounded with a little self-mockery is very much in line with Stoic principles.
Keep Perspective
Laughter helps us to keep things in perspective. When we are in good spirits, we are better able to see things as they are, or imagine how they could be. When things don’t go the way we want, we’re better able to roll with things, focus on what went right, and move forward in a more positive direction. When we are stressed or pessimistic, then we’re more likely to catastrophize, only see the downsides, and wallow in why things didn’t work out.
Seneca gives us some good instruction on keeping a humorous outlook when comparing the serious and sullen Heraclitus the more cheerful Democritus. He wrote:
“We ought therefore to bring ourselves into such a state of mind that all the vices of the vulgar may not appear hateful to us, but merely ridiculous, and we should imitate Democritus rather than Heraclitus. The latter of these, whenever he appeared in public, used to weep, the former to laugh: the one thought all human doings to be follies, the other thought them to be miseries. We must take a higher view of all things, and bear with them more easily: it better becomes a man to laugh at life than to lament over it. Add to this that he who laughs at the human race deserves better of it than he who mourns for it, for the former leaves it some good hopes of improvement, while the latter stupidly weeps over what he has given up all hopes of mending.”
Laughter is the Best Medicine
When comes to health, laughter is truly good medicine. With the pace of the modern world, we’re all under a lot of stress, which is detrimental to our long term health. Since stress hormones, those released for our ‘fight or flight’ instincts are meant to get us out of short term danger, such as escaping from a saber toothed tiger, we’re not meant to operate under this type of duress for long periods.
Exposure to these hormones over longer periods increase our risk for obesity, heart disease, cancer, depression and many other illnesses. Laughter, as it turns out, helps counteract many of these problems by relieving stress, increasing oxygen intake, and releasing healthy chemicals into our bloodstream.
Strengthening Social Bonds
The Stoics stress that it’s important for us to build community and be a productive member of society. Laughter is something that brings people together and helps to strengthen social bonds. Sharing a good laugh with family and friends or even strangers can help us form better social connections.
At a very simplistic level, when we laugh with others, we relax around them and are better able to just be ourselves. It feels like the other person ‘gets us’. We associate good feelings with them. Our memories of them are positive, which means it’s more likely we’ll want to spend time with them, or be willing to help them out when they need it.
For example, even though I had a difficult relationship with my father, some of my fondest memories of him are when he shared funny stories or we watched a movie that had us rolling on the floor. I can still remember his deep belly laugh and when he’d have to take off his glasses because he had tears in his eyes.
When we can see the lighter side of life, we are also better able to be compassionate to other people and more likely to give them the benefit of the doubt. When we’re stressed or pessimistic, we’re more likely to place blame on them when things aren’t working out.
Wisdom in Humor
There are many ways to learn and often humor is the best way to communicate wisdom. The best teachers I had growing up were usually those that could make learning fun or add some humor into their lessons. A bit of humor in the class often made the difference between really enjoying a class or just getting through it.
Sometimes, the truth is so blunt, it hurts. But wrap that truth in a joke, and it becomes wisdom you can approach with a smile. Some of the best comedians share hard truths about life with humor that otherwise would be uncomfortable. By shining a light on hard things with humor, we’re more willing to look at things that we might otherwise would have avoided. By making us laugh, they open us up to seeing things from different perspectives that we may not have considered before.
Resilience
When we can learn to laugh about the hard things in life, we become more resilient. When the going gets tough, rather than letting it drag us down, we’re able to make something good of a tough situation. With a shift in perspective, what may have seemed like a frustrating situation, can be turned into something more neutral or even a funny story to share with friends later.
Learning to laugh at life also helps us in embracing imperfection. Nobody's perfect and Stoics get that. A well-timed joke about our own blunders reminds us to accept our flaws. I can imagine that if Marcus Aurelius had social media, he'd probably tweet, "Messed up today. #JustEmperorThings."
Looking at the Bright Side of Life
So how can you get better about looking at life from a more humorous perspective?
A big thing for me is to just watch some good comedy. Last Sunday night I was working on some business ideas and was finding myself stressing out about it. I found that my thinking was narrowed and it was really hard to generate ideas. Then I would get even more frustrated because I couldn’t seem to get out of this downward spiral.
So I went to a comedy show. It was small show but the crowd was really fun and the comedians were great. Some of the topics broached were dark, but still funny. I also made friends with the couple sitting next to me. Two hours of laughing reset my mood and started the week off with a much better outlook.
Since the Stoics are big on having awareness of what you are thinking, pay attention to when you’re getting critical towards someone or something else. Approach the situation like a comedy writer. Can you stop and see if you can find something funny about the situation? Can you laugh at yourself for getting too serious about something? I found that if I think about how I could turn it into a funny story to tell someone later can help to lighten my mood.
But with this said, be careful not to take things too far. Humor can be a great coping mechanism, but it can also be used to avoid having difficult conversations or dealing with challenging situations. Also, laughing at the expense of others is one way to burn bridges rather than building them.
The Stoics teach us to practice temperance, so make sure that you use humor at the right time and in the right doses. Trying to be funny at the wrong time can backfire and may cause more harm. Life isn’t all doom and gloom, but it’s not a laugh-fest either. Finding that sweet spot between levity and seriousness can help you strike the right balance in any situation.
Like they say, know your audience.
Conclusion
In essence, Stoicism with a dash of humor isn't just palatable; it's downright enjoyable. It turns out, you can pursue virtue and still have room for a good laugh. So next time you're pondering the Stoic virtues, remember to lighten up and let humor be your companion on the path to eudaemonia.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
This week's episode is an interview with Mark Tuitert, an Olympic gold medalist speed skater and Stoic author. We sat down in his home outside of Amsterdam and had a wonderful conversation about discipline, handling stress, forgiving parents, and about his new book The Stoic Mindset. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed the conversation. You can find out more about Mark Tuitert at https://marktuitert.nl
Episode Transcript: Erick: Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to the most important points. I share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break.
This week's episode is an interview with Mark Tuitert. Mark is an Olympic gold medalist speed skater. He's from the Netherlands, which is where I'm living at the moment. And Luckily, his agent contacted me just as I moved here, and I was able to go down to his house and do an interview with him. And he just is working on a book right now called The Stoic Mindset, which should be coming out in the US and Canada and the UK in April.
We sat down, we talked about stoicism, we talked about his Olympic career, and we talked about how he was able to use stoicism to help him overcome a lot of challenges and eventually end up winning a gold medal in the Vancouver Olympics. So I had a really great interview with Mark, really enjoyed sitting down and chatting with him.
(I did mangle his name at the beginning of the podcast interview, but since then I've learned how to pronounce it properly.)
I hope you enjoy this interview with Mark Tuitert.
So hello everybody, today is my first live interview for the Stowe Coffee Break podcast. I'm here with Mark Tuitert so we're actually here in the Netherlands. I just happened to be here when we got contacted by him and it, so this worked out. So this is my first time actually doing a live interview and filming it.
So hopefully this will go well.
Mark: Do we actually have a coffee break? Here we go. Or a tea.
Erick: So for me, this is rather exciting because like I said, this is this is all new. And. I guess let's just jump right into it. First off, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself to my audience?
Mark: My name is Mark Tuitert.
I was an Olympic speed skater and speed skating here in Holland is a pretty big sport. So I was a professional athlete between my 18th and well, 34, 34 years old. And after that, I have now my own company, I'm a motivational speaker, I write books mainly also about Stoicism I'm a big and avid fan of the Stoics.
So yeah, for me, I'm a father of two. I love music. I love sports. I love life. But I've had some challenging situations as an athlete, as an Olympic athlete. And I still work for television sometimes I go to the Olympics and do commentary.
Erick: Oh nice nice. So you're your agent sent me over a copy of your latest book. You want to talk a little bit about that?
Mark: Yeah. Sure. Yeah, The Stoic Mindset. Yes I always used a lot of wisdom From philosophy during my sports career. So within my career I I had to deal with a lot of pressure being an Olympic athlete. I missed out on two Olympics actually in 2002 and 2006 by various reasons. We can dive into that later probably.
And that were really challenging times for me. So I had to deal with overtraining with. My parents in a divorce situation with pressure of sports, with pressure of well, the public here in Holland, speed skating is a big sport. So you have a lot of pressure. You can earn money with it, of course, but on the other side, missing two Olympic games was for me a tough situation because I've been training for four years for the one Olympics in 2002 in Salt Lake City training for four years for the Olympics in 2006 in Turin and I missed out on those.
So for me, I had one chance to train for Vancouver another four years. And during that time I read a lot and I really was intrigued by the meditations of Marcus Aurelius, by the sayings of Seneca, of Epictetus, and I really, during my career as I got older and a little bit wiser, I used these. texts and philosophy, philosophical ideas to yeah, not only be, be a better person or make wiser choices. And that helped me a lot. Leading up to the Olympics in 2010. For me, that was the pinnacle of my career, probably last chance. Mm-Hmm, . I I could start on an Olympic games and two or three weeks right before these games.
I did everything I could within my control to be the best athlete I can be. And I had to dive deep for that in my whole life. And yeah, for me, that was life changing. So, what, what my mindset was right before these Olympic Games, I think was really stoic. I don't judge my parents for what they do.
I don't look at competitors, what they do. I don't worry about the journalists, what they write about me. I only focus on my internal state of mind, my mindset. That's what I call the stoic mindset in my book. And so I, I, I concentrate on my, yeah, my inner voice being. Stable being yeah, being a voice of courage.
So not dealing, not pushing away the fear because you feel fear right before an Olympic Games. Absolutely. Working with it. So not pushing it away. Stoic. Yeah, could be in our English or Dutch language. Pushing feelings away. Not like that at all, but just embracing the fear, embracing the challenge.
And just look at yourself. No, I give everything I have. I can look in the mirror. I know I did everything I could to get here. I'm 29 years old. I was in Vancouver. Probably this is going to be the last chance you get on an Olympic Games. Yeah, absolutely. And that's you're nearing your retirement age as an athlete.
Yeah. So these things for me were Yeah, these thoughts that They were thoughts that kept me grounded and It's not that I didn't aspire to a big goal. I aspired to win Olympic gold, to be the best speed skater I can be. So that's what I wrote a book about. So how can you give everything you have, dream big, reaching your goals, but still detach from the negative emotions resulting you know, with that road leading up to that big goal.
And for me, that helped a lot. And after two, three years ago we had difficult times with my company first energy gum. COVID was happening production wise, things were going the wrong way. So I was really challenged. Yeah, I learned how to deal with this, and I see a lot of people struggling with this, so why don't I write it down in a book so people actually can, yeah, maybe learn something from it.
And it's not like I want to point the finger, but I want to tell my story so people can relate to that. And they don't relate probably to winning an Olympic gold medal, but relate to the journey, relate to the setbacks, dealing with pressure, dealing with Things that are not in your control, dealing with chaos.
That's where I find the beauty in Stoicism. It's like for me, how can you keep standing upright in the storm of life? Like Marcus Aurelius did, like Seneca did, like all these great thinkers and people did who adopted this philosophy.
Erick: So what was it that first drew you to it? Do you remember how you found Stoicism?
Mark: Yeah. Well, I was always intrigued by history and in, in, in school, I loved history. And the first time I was really challenged by a situation was when I was 19, 20 years old. I was the hotshot talent in speed skating. I signed a big contract. I, well, I was on under the pressure of the Olympics of 2002 coming up.
I did a lot of interviews. My sponsor paid me a fair amount of money so there was a lot of pressure on me, but I still was living at home with my parents who were going through a divorce. So me being the oldest son, I tried to intervene between the two people I love and that didn't work out.
Actually, it, yeah, for me, what happened was I yeah, I, what was sort of a flight into the one thing I thought I could control that was training harder. So for me. I trained harder and harder and harder. I trained seven days a week, 2, 3, 3 times a day. So rest days, or I don't do rest days, you know? Yeah, I just grind.
Wake up early, go to bed late and grind it through. But that's not how you become fit mentally and physically and emotionally. I was wrecked the winter of 2002. I missed out on these Olympic games. I was overtrained. Lying on my bed, I was sick. So I couldn't train that winter. I missed the Olympic Games.
And that was, for me, that was like a sort of an epiphany. Like, how can we fool ourselves like this? How can we think we know how it works, life works, no? If I put the hours in, and of course you have to work hard and put hours in to get somewhere, but we can get blindsided, we can have blinders on, and I had that.
So as I was really fascinated how that worked, like, how can I fool myself? I have to reflect on myself so that this doesn't happen again. I have to learn from this. So I read a lot about overtraining, about how psychology works. But I also read by then when I was 20 years old, beautiful text of Mark Aurelius.
So I read parts of the meditations already. And a beautiful quote of, of Marcus is that the impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way. And for me, yeah, that's, that's, that were the first lights of stoicism that I thought, Hey, that's, that's a really, really beautiful way of thinking through setbacks, not as the end of the road, but it's an obstacle in your path and it's up to you to find a new direction in life.
So that's actually my first chapter in my book. That you can use obstacles or setbacks as a signpost. So what does this teach me? How do I deal with this? And from that point on I found a new journey with a new coach. And it went really well within two years. I was a European champion and everything happened.
In the right way, but I still was not there. It's not really, really what stoicism clicked for me was in the years leading up to Vancouver. But I learned through the years it, yeah, it sort of evolved.
Erick: Yeah. No, I think that I think that over training is probably very common in a lot of sports. So I know that so I used to cycle a lot, not competitively or anything like that, but I used to cycle a lot.
and there'll be times when I'd just be riding, you know. You know, two, 300 miles in a week. And while for Tour de France athletes, that's easy, but I have a full time job and kids and all that kind of stuff. And it was, you know, I basically wore myself out and you reach a point where your body just says, Hey, that's fine that you want to do that, but you can't and learning to step back and go, okay.
And so I think over the years I've worked hard to try and develop that, that attitude of working hard enough. Yeah. And resting enough. Yeah. And that has really made a big difference on that. And finding that, like Stoic teaches, finding that temperance, that moderation. Yeah. And it's that balance of those two that's really going to get us there.
Mark: Yeah, exactly. It's the self discipline, the moderation you have to find. And of course, especially when you're young, you can grind. You have to grind. It's beautiful. There's something, there's beauty in there too. Yeah. To have a big dream and give it all you have. But it's a really thin line in blinding yourself.
So that's what I found is beautiful in stoicism. It's the practical philosophy side of it. Yeah. And we don't philosophize about concepts and abstract things. You can really philosophize and how, how is this helping me to lead a good life and what does it mean to lead a good life? What is that? Absolutely.
Is that winning an Olympic gold medal? A lot of people, a lot of athletes I know. Are under the misconception that if you win the medal, like entrepreneurs, if they sell the company, if you do this, then it's all been worthwhile. So you look back from that gold medal to your career and then you can say it's worth it.
But that's, that's the other way. That's the wrong way of thinking about it. It's a guaranteed failure for yourself. If you look at it like that, if you think of happiness like that, if you think of success like that. So you can still chase that gold medal But I think you really have to reflect on what it means to be successful.
What does it really entail?
Erick: Yeah, very true. I think that One of the things that for me I actually approached this topic on my podcast last week. It was like, how do you stay content while you're striving for your ambitions?Yeah, and it's I people think of them as you would do one or the other like if I'm content with my life I'm not gonna be ambitious And it's not that, it's that you find contentment on the path, you don't find contentment, it's not an end point, it's not a static state of being, it's while you're journeying along, you find contentment there, while you're heading towards your ambitions, and if you can do that, you enjoy the whole thing all along the way and you're having a great time the whole along the way.
Mark: And you can have hard times and you can have challenging times. And sometimes you feel sad or you feel lost and that can all be a part of that journey. But that's what life is, right? I find it beautiful in Epictetus or in Stoics.
Accept the reality of life. You know, it's not a dream or something far away. What life entails so it's to accept that and not run away from it, but yeah, don't shy away from that
Erick: So I wanted to ask you, what are your daily practices in stoicism? What are the things that help you? Each and every day, because in Stoicism, we talk a lot about having practices, about having kind of rituals that we follow to help remind us to live these things and to get us there.
Mark: What are your practices? Well, I'm not like the dead ritual guy that has an agenda and says I'm doing, I'm doing this at six o'clock and then at eight o'clock, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. What I really do is before when I wake up and when I go to bed, I take a couple of minutes to reflect. That's it.
Actually, I, I, I make sure I, I, I am thankful for what I encountered that day. Thankful for everything. Also, if it's hurting or it's sadness, I'm thankful for that. And that helps me a lot. So when I go to sleep, like Seneca says, before we go to sleep, we have all encountered fortune or the mistress Fortuna.
And I find that it's a beautiful thing to do when you, right, before you go to sleep, what are you thankful for and what are the things you still have to learn on your path there because we're all prokoptons, right? We're all stoic learners. We're not the saints. We're not the Holy Spirit. We're not God.
We're human beings. So I'm not a natural stoic. I'm an athlete. I want to win gold. I want to beat everybody. I want to challenge myself. I want to go out there. So stoicism for me is like a really a sort of framework. And I use these reflections every day when I wake up and when I go to bed. Also thinking of death, contemplating death memento mori what, what if I look back at the end of my life, hopefully it will, I will be old.
My, my grandmother is a hundred years. She's still. Is alive I hope to reach that age, but if you look back at your life, did you make wise choices? Were you chasing the right things, not the wrong things? Were you in connection with the people around you, the people you love? So, so these reflections help me every day.
Am I doing the right thing? For me to say at the end of this life or even at the end of this day, because you don't know if there's a next one. Are these the choices I want to make? Am I on my own path? Am I leading my own path? For me, stoicism is a sort of way to reflect on that. And that's what I write in my book to the stoic mindset.
It's, I don't embrace stoicism or I don't teach stoicism through my book. Like this is stoicism, like a religion or a dogma – far from it. I think everybody, you can see it as an inspiration and a school of thinking, learning to think better, to look at life in another way. And that's what helps me a lot. So it's up to you.
It's not like we don't have a teacher to put it into practice, but it's not like we don't have a teacher saying, Oh, you can do that. Or you can do that. No, it's for me, it's a relief and a way of expanding my view and and doing it in a non judgmental way. That's what I tell myself every day too. What, what are the things you're judging others about?
What's the judgment you can withhold? What's the reflection you can do on this?
Erick: I think for me kind of , to kind of clarify, or to kind of put a point on that, the way that I've talked about it, and because I've had people ask me, it's like, so what is the difference between this and a religion? Yeah.
And you, you nailed it. It's, it's the dogma. There's no dogma with stoicism. It's about, these are tools, these are mindsets, these are principles. And because they're principles, they're flexible, they're, they allow you to adapt to any situation. You filter it through the principle, you know, is, am I using courage?
Am I being wise? Am I being just? Am I being,
Mark: Disciplined? And probably you know, right? If you're not making a wise choice, you sometimes you do that and you know, yeah, you know, this is not a wise choice, but I still do it anyway.
Erick: Exactly.
Mark: Okay. But then you cannot fool yourself. Right?
Erick: Exactly. And, and the thing is, is it's, for some people that's harder. Some people want religion. They want a dogma because it's easier to follow, you know, you know, that's fine, too Yeah, and it's fine if that works for you But I think that I think that that's what attracted stoicism to me was that I grew up Mormon And so I was a very dogmatic religion, and I tried living all of the principles exactly the way they said and I was still unhappy.
I was miserable for so much of my life and so I left the church and that it wasn't until like I said about seven years ago when I finally found stoicism, and it was suddenly like, “Why didn't I know these things growing up these things could have really changed my life?” I learned what I can't control I learned how to change my perspective on so many things
Mark: and It's freedom of thinking it is way more freedom. It’s funny that stoicism started off and then Christianity came in between and now Stoicism is on the rise again probably and then I think it will be for a couple of thousand years. So it's what suits you and for me too, for me getting rid of the dogmas. So I'm, I'm really also a little bit, there are also people of course who say, Hey, this is not stoic or that's, that's not stoic.
And I find that amusing because this is philosophy. It's not like a set of rules you have to abide to. It's a way of thinking which you want to adopt because it enriches your life and it expands your thinking. Without judging and that's I think the beauty of it.
Erick: Yeah, I find that funny when somebody says when I I'll look on the reddit Stoicism forum sometimes and answer questions on there from time to time and I do think it's funny when somebody says well That's not stoic.
Yeah, whatever and I'm just like that's are you sure? I mean you're being very judgmental You see according to which stoic exactly you could say I don't think that follows stoic principles very well, and explain why but just to make a judgment, and you be the arbiter of, well that's not stoic. You know, you could say that that behavior doesn't seem to follow the principles, and I think that that's where, where for me, I like kind of having that, like I said, I like having that flexibility, because it allows you to, because life is full of nuance.
It's not black or white, it's not, It's not right or wrong all the time. It's things somewhere in the middle. It's like, for me, my favorite movies are the ones where you kind of like the villain. That there's empathy for the villain because nobody's all bad and nobody's all good. And I like it when people are darker and they're a little messier with things.
Because that's the way life really is. And I think stoicism allows for that messiness in life, and I think that's very important. Oh yes, it does. I think so too. And I think that too many, and I think that that's why it's becoming more and more attractive to people, because life is so complicated.
And I wanted to, I guess that kind of leads into one of my next questions is stoicism in modern life. I mean, how do you think that stoicism can help us with our fast paced technology to the world?
Mark: Well, I think we, we get distracted a lot by, by phones, by news, by social media posts. People really are getting used to just putting their thoughts and their judgments out there and we have to react.
So it's a reaction. Yeah. Society. We react on reactions. Yeah. So we react, but nobody takes a step back and reflects and think, Hey, why am I doing this? Why is somebody hurting me? Or what do I feel? You know, if on Twitter or X or whatever you call it these days, if somebody reacts and has a vile opinion or about me or I am on television and, and, and somebody.
It hurts me, it really is, I think, why is, what you could do, and I think this is really stoic, like, why does this hurt me this much? Why? Is the opinion of one, one person, of me, valuable? It might be, it might be somebody I respect or somebody gives me feedback in a, but if I respect someone, he gives me feedback in a, in a way I can do something with that, that, that's.
That's what I find valuable, but that wouldn't hurt me actually. Right. So why does it hurt me? Is it my ego? Is it something I want to push back on? And like, well, you this and you that that's the, that's the impulse you have. Right. That's what, what the Stoics teach, teach us is like, okay, the impulse is there.
Of course, if somebody cuts me off in traffic. My first impulse I'm going to do something to you, you know and I think the beauty of stoicism is to take a step back and think about, okay, somebody, do I give this person the power to make me feel like this? Like Epictetus would say, you're complicit.
In the story, if you react, you can also detach from that story, leave your own life and let the impulse flow away and use your thought on why this matters. So for me what really helped me is when I, in 2006, I missed the Olympic games. I was in the final five others in the final six of touring and I was lost.
I did really well in tests. I had a perfect score. I had a great condition. My technique was good. Where I missed out on the Olympics again, because I, I fell in the strangest places during a race, right? In the corners I fall, like out of nothing. I was unstable. So I thought about this again, like not trying to work harder or react, but take a step back and say, where is this coming from?
So I had a mentor, I had a great conversation with a mentor of mine and he really showed me a beautiful thing. He said, okay, what do you, he asked me a question, how, where do you stand you towards your father and mother? Because my father and mother were still fighting each other in the divorce situation.
And I put myself in between them. I was the one, you know trying to fix the situation. And I thought. Also, if I fix the situation, I find rest. And if I find rest, I can become a good athlete. So I have to fix the situation. But I learned to see it the other way around. This is not my situation. This is not my fight.
This is a fight between two people I love, but it's not my fight. I have to step out of this fight and say that. I said, Mom, I'm not your co fighter in this fight. This is you. This is me. I have my own path. And I went to my father and that's where judgment comes in. I was really angry towards my father. So a lot of anger and that's what a Stoics teach us.
And I think the beauty of Stoicism is. You can't get rid of that anger. That anger has got nothing to do with my father. Epictetus would say, we have our, our things that happened to us. I mean my parents divorcing. And then on the other hand, we have these emotions, but there's something in between.
That's your judgment of the situation. So it was my judgment of my father that causes the anger. It's not my father. I would, and it's, we all do this, right? We blame someone for the feeling we blame the person, or we blame the situation and that's totally not stoic. So Epictetus really, I thought that resonated with me.
So I talked with someone and Hey, I know this. This is from Stoicism, it's from Epictetus, right? So I, I thought about this, and I asked him what to do. He said, just call your father up, just do that. And I did that, without judging him. Yeah. It's my judgment, not his. So I asked him questions, and I, that's I think what we should learn to do more often, and that's what the Stoics, and we all learned from Socrates.
Don't think you know this. Don't think you're the right person for this. Don't think your judgment is how the world works. It's your judgment. Yeah. So if you ask a good question and be really honest in your, in you wanting to know the answer. So I, I called my father up and I said, I miss him and let's get into contact with each other again.
So I, I withhold my judgment. Of course, I judge him somewhere for what happened, but I tried to not intervene. Let that judgment intervene between our situation. And even up to this day, I, I, I, now I can say I'm 43 years old. I, that whole judgment is gone. It's gone. Yeah. I love my father for who he is.
And yes, he has his troubles and his dark sides, but Hey, look in the mirror. I don't? So, so for me, it was really, am I a better 20, 30 years older? These reflections. Do I know what it feels like to have not any contact with your sons for six years? No, I don't. So instead of judging him, it's wiser to try to let him into my life again.
Yeah, and my father was there when when I won Olympic gold medal. So it was, that was great and in these four years between 2006 and 2010. I didn't feel any anger, so the anger faded and what made that situation better for me in my life was my life became better because my choices became wiser because they were not fueled by anger.
I could become a better athlete, more relaxed. That sort of paradox, right? The balance, what we talked about. So I was more relaxed I could dive deeper with training, I could work harder and I become a better person, but also a better athlete. And that's, for me, that was the one thing I needed to really get the best outta myself and to become Olympic champion.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that very well. I had to. A lot of anger towards my father as well. Yeah. So my parents got divorced when I was 20, when I was 20 years old. Yeah, yeah, same age. Yeah, and and when I found out why and found out all the reasons for it, and I was, like I said, I grew up Mormon. I was on my mission in Austria when I found out.
Oh, yeah. And I was, I was very angry. I was. I came home, I tried to talk to my dad a little bit about it. He was very evasive about things. And then unfortunately we never got to really reconcile because he died just a few years after that. So, just completely out of the blue. So, his pancreas just started eating the rest of his organs and he died within 10 days.
But over the years as I've gotten older and wiser, and I've had kids of my own and recognize how challenging that is, learned to really work to forgive him and to understand him because, you know, with the fact that he was dead, all that hate did, all that anger did was hurt me. And so trying to understand him, because he wasn't all bad, there were plenty of things about him that were great.
But when they weren't, it was really awful. And so it was like, about an 80 20 split. Like, 80 percent of the time, he was good. 20%, he was awful. And so I, now I'm at that point in my life where I can look back on that and just appreciate it. The good things.. He was smart. He was funny. He was kind.
Mark: Yeah.
Yeah. I think, yeah, that's a beautiful way of saying it. And I, that's also what I find fascinating is somebody to, to, to change that perspective. Yep. You don't need the other person. Actually, the person cannot be there anymore. It's your perspective, which you can change.
Erick: And that was the thing that I learned was that I had to change my perspective about my dad.
And I choose that perspective. It's not that I ignore the bad things he did. He was very abusive when we were growing up. At certain points. But I can still appreciate the good things that he gave us.
Mark: That's what Epictetus says, right? I found it beautiful in his sayings. He said too. It's your parents, you don't get to choose your parents.
That's what's given to you. So you better learn and love what's given to you. They can be challenging, they can be bad, they can do horrible things, but they're your parents. And I always pushed that thought away. People say, hey, it's, it's your father. I say, yeah, well, to hell with that. But it's true. It's like, it's exactly what Epictetus says and what the Stoics, these wise people tell us.
It's like, you can be angry at your neighbor or your brother, or you can wish another father, but that's not the case. This is reality of life. And it's your role as a son to be a good son, to watch your father or to watch your mother and to respect what they've did. You don't know. You don't know where they come from.
They have their burdens. They have their share which, which they take on their shoulders and you don't know what that's like. So you can judge them, but you don't know.
Erick: Yeah, and the only, and the thing is, is like I said, when you hold on to that, you're the person that gets hurt. You're hurting yourself.
It's that old Confucius saying, like, holding on to anger is like holding on to a hot coal that you want to throw at somebody. The longer you hold on to it, you're the one that gets burnt. And I was just like, I remember I read that when I was a teenager and I was like, that's an interesting idea. And then as I got older and found stoicism, I'm like, there's the coal again.
There's the coal.
Mark: Totally get that idea. It's so powerful that you can just. You know, just so you can get rid of these negative emotions. That's, I think, the beauty in the way of thinking in Stoicism is philosophy.
Erick: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to touch on something that I know is, it's probably one of the hardest topics in your book.
And that's about your mother's suicide. How did that impact you personally? And what was it that, maybe in Stoicism, maybe it was something else that helped you get through that? Because I imagine that was an incredibly hard thing.
Mark: Yeah, it was really hard. So my mother was severely depressed. The hardest choice I ever had to make in my life in 2010, right before the Olympics was to call my mother up and ask her not to come to Vancouver, just stay home.
And she was there when I first stood in the ice. She was there going with me to training, et cetera, et cetera. So I love my mother but, but for me, there was, I think we all, that's the challenge we all face in life. We have our own path to take. We have to find our own path. And for me, I was heading. I my life where I had to really choose my own path and make hard decisions.
So I called my mother up and said, mom, I love you, but I cannot handle you being there emotionally, physically. So please don't come. And she couldn't handle that trip because she was not in a good way and not in a good position in life. Two years later, she committed suicide. And that's, that's sad. That's, that's terribly sad.
But what for me clicked after that was. And I look at it. It's not, dying is not, for her, of course, dying was a sort of a relief. Because she was in a lot of pain. And I cannot comprehend what it's like to endure that pain. I know people who are depressed. I know people who have thoughts of doing that. And I know, thank God, a lot of people who get through that and enjoy life.
Again, she couldn't. So And she's stubborn. And she has a powerful will. Ha ha! So she really, for her, it was a relief. So the, the, the pain is on us as sons or as and, and that's there, there is no love without pain and, and, and that's what life is like. So it's painful. So. With negative emotions, I, I don't say they're, I'm, I'm not against pain.
If, if it's natural pain, if it's there, it's, it's real, it's okay. It's hurts, but hey, this is life. I don't have to push that back. It's there. So I let that pain come through. And for me, the real pain was not in that moment. She, she died or committed suicide. It was more in the, at the 10 years leading up to that point, she didn't have a life.
Yeah, she was depressed and she couldn't handle it. You know me with my stoic mindset. I'm like just think this different. She couldn't she just couldn't .And we tried. So for me, it was letting go of that and letting go of controlling her life or controlling her decisions. So finding peace in the decision she actually made and not only finding peace in that, but also not wanting to change that.
That's of course, I want her to be there, but for me, I want, that's me, as a son, I want my mother to be there. My oldest daughter was just born. So I'm like, You have your first grandchild and you don't want to be here anymore. And I thought about it and probably it's for her. And she know the, she know how this feels to have a grandchild.
And, and then there's such a disconnect with the way she was feeling for herself. So you, I cannot comprehend that. So for me, what, what I find beautiful in Stoicism is, okay, I have my life. And I want to, the way I can commemorate or honor my mother is to live to the full extent of my life. That's what I can do with the people around me I love, with my brothers, with my children.
And that's what I, that's my mission. I can do that and I can show another way. And I don't get my mother back for that, but my mother lives through me. Her love is still there and that helped me a lot. So death is not something I fear or abolish or abandon from my life. It's there. And I'm gonna be there with my mother and it's gonna be there for me.
But that the only thing I want is to live and go out there in life, not hold back, not hold back on love, not hold back on being pushed back by negative emotions. So let go of these negative emotions, clear space for joy, for zest, for freedom, for living. And and if death comes, then I can look back if I have the chance.
Maybe it's swift, maybe not and say to myself, wow, this is this has been a work of art. That's, yeah, that's how I look at it.
Erick: Yeah, I hope I hope I can get to that point as well. And right now I'm, like I was telling you earlier, I'm kind of in a state of flux of just finding my, my own path right now.
And I can appreciate what I've, what I've done in my life and accomplished, but I feel like I could do so much more. And sometimes I, I struggle with that because I don't feel like I've done anything great in my life yet. I don't have any, like, I don't have a gold medal that I can look back on, but I can at least look at, you know, I've got two great kids who turned out to be great people.
And I, I, I enjoy being around my kids. They're happy. They have their struggles, but they're just, they're good people. And they grew up, you know, even though my, my ex wife and I divorced when they were pretty young they grew up with two fairly supportive and healthy parents. And that's been That's something that I didn't really get because, you know, my dad, like I said, was very violent.
He was very, very tortured soul. And so,
Mark: yeah, so you broke the cycle.
Erick: Definitely broke the cycle.
Mark: Yeah, that's great, man.
Erick: Yeah, yeah. My sister one time, like, she, her biggest insult is you're just like dad. And there was one time where she saw me and my kids and she's like, You're not like, dad, you're a good father.
Oh, I was like, oh, wow. Thanks. Yeah. So
Mark: I would like to, we, I think a lot of people ask me this question if I, if I give motivational talks here in Holland and, and, and abroad too. A lot of questions, and I talk about this, I talk about the death of my mother. I talk my, about my parents. I, I share deeply personal stories also because I don't want to be a, a taboo or anything around that.
This is what happens in life. So for me, the question I get a lot is if it's hurting me or I feel guilt. And I could let go of that guilt too. So it's also again, Epictetus, you can blame other people. You can blame the situation or you can blame yourself. You cannot, you can also do not do that. Right. Don't blame other people.
Don't blame the situation and don't blame yourself. I did everything I could. I love my mother, but this is her choice. She wanted this. So we better abide to her wish because it's her wish. It's not my, I, my wish is that she would be here also in pain, but don't let her go. So I don't feel guilt in that way.
And like for you, you know, it's not, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves. I think in modern society too, to be accomplished or be a good person. So of course we also feel guilt or we don't feel enough. And we have to, I think, get rid of that idea of not being enough. Or feeling guilty, of course you can make your, you make your own decisions and you're responsible for these decisions and that can be shitty decisions.
Yes. And you bear responsibility for that. It's not to. To wane off the responsibility. But if you do that and you do it with a intent, well, well intended, yeah. You should think of it every day, like it's a stoic reflection maybe. So where, where I, I don't have to feel guilty because I did what I could.
Did I do this? Did I make the right decision? Yes. Then I don't have to feel guilty. Do I feel accomplished? Maybe not, but me being the best person there is, that's an accomplishment. If we could all do that, raise beautiful children, that's the accomplishment. That's where, and that's great. That's enough. We don't have to add anything to that.
We want to. We want to build legacy. We want to be known until the end of their careers. Like Marcus Aurelius said, like Alexander and
Erick: his stable boy,
Mark: you know, they're, they're both buried. You can't see any distinction between their bones. What are you talking about? It's you. It's your own path. And you have to take that path.
Nobody else can do that for you. And that's, I think, the challenge in life that's, that's, that's hard. But that's where I think the purpose lies and the motivation lies and the beauty lies, it's the pain and the beauty, it lies there. And that's the road you follow. It's no, I'm not good enough. It's no guilt.
That's not there. You know, in the, Zeno of Citium, the original founder of stoicism. These were all ideas that were not there. Jealousy. You know, if we can get rid of these human ideas, which function right, they make us win gold medals because like, I have to beat that other guy. So it's not, there's nothing wrong with it.
But it's not good or bad in a, in an ethical sense. It's not a good life.
Erick: Yeah, it just, it's, it is, it is what it is.
Mark: Yeah, it can be beautiful. It can, it can, I've, I derive a lot of pleasure from it and I love that. But that's another concept of being happy or feeling fulfilled.
Erick: Yeah. And I think that, that we do sometimes feel that drive, like we have to accomplish something in our life.
And the thing is. We don't, we don't have to accomplish anything. You don't. What we have to do is be a good person. But, often times, when we,
Mark: And we have to, sorry, but, Go ahead. This is funny, because, You say we have to be a good person, Or you don't have to, You know, these are all also normative thoughts. If we look at Socrates, and his questioning, And his style of questioning, If you're not good enough, Or you have to be a good person, These are, normative thoughts.
You know, when you're looking back at Socrates and what he learns is if you challenge yourself, challenge yourself or others with questions, let's say Socratic questioning. I did courses on that because I find it a beautiful instrument. And Epictetus uses it in his colleges. So you can ask, so, okay, you have to be a good person.
Why? Why is that? That's a question, why do we have to be a good person?
Erick: Why do you have to be? And also, what defines a good person?
Mark: What is a good person? Yeah. And why do you have to be Or do you want to be a good person? Why do you want to be a good person? Do you? You can also say, well, I don't feel great about myself, but I have to be a good person.
So I can feel great about myself. I have something like that. You know, it's, it's all, we, we, we make up stories in our mind, of course. Yeah. So the challenge is I think to really challenge these thoughts. So why is this? Stoicism, when it comes down to the four categories the values, you know, the temperance justice.
Courage, wisdom, practical wisdom. If you think through it and you ask yourself these questions, you get down to the core of this. That's what you cannot debate, actually, because that's what, if you think about it, is what a great person or a good person, that's probably what it looks like.
Erick: Exactly. And for me, what I found fascinating was I've been studying some Socrates lately, because that was something that I found the Stoics and was like, oh, wait a second.
Basically the Stoics took Socrates stuff and this is the conclusions they came to using the Socratic method. Yeah, so basically he gave them the tools and they're like, hey, well, we're gonna refine it a little bit more. What I really liked about that was, like I said, they they used it and then they came to these conclusions.
So it's like, so they distilled down a lot of hard questions for us and answered some of those. But we can still use that same methodology to help answer any other questions for us. And so I've, that's one of, for me, that's been great coming from the stoics and then slowly working back into Socrates and trying to understand those things.
And I wanna get better about using that and think through that more. I, I think I use some of it naturally, but not in a more, in that kind of formal way. Yeah. So that's something I've been reading a book by Ward Farnsworth. He's a professor at the University of Texas, and he's written a couple of books on Stoicism and other philosophy, and he has one that's about the Socratic method, and it's like a practical handbook, and I remember, I was like, so I read part of that, and then I was like, okay.
So, yeah. Got rid of it because I have to sell my house and get rid of all of these things and so I need to go buy the e books so I can finish reading that book. But it was so good and he does such a great job of explaining it, you know, why, the how and everything but in a way that's very approachable.
It's not very dry like a professor, it's actually, you know, he's a good writer and so. . Yeah.
Mark: That's a great method. It's really, you can learn it and practice it and it's hard to do. Yeah. 'cause you have to put your own judgment out of the situation.
Erick: Exactly. And that's hard. Exactly. Go well. Well I know what good is.
We'll do you Yeah, of course. This is good. Yeah, exactly. Or why is that , why is it good?
Mark: And then you, and I think that's a weird stoicism you, if you think about it. And that's, I think the, the, the nature part where the nature part comes in. The ethics, the logic, and the physics. It's. Like this is how nature works.
This is works. This is how life works. This is how the world around us works. And if you call it God or will or et cetera, et cetera, it doesn't really matter. This is, yeah, this is the way we see nature works. So if you use your reasoning. And you use the, the, the, the, the knowledge, you know, about nature and the, the, the, the knowledge that we are social animals, so we connect with other people, learn from other people, can question other people.
I think you derive these ideas from stoicism. If you, if you think of it, well, that's, you come down to this. That's for me, actually, where I. And I ended up with, in Stoicism, it's like, okay, if you follow all these philosophical ideas, you know a little bit about how the world works, how we work as people, then this is what I find most fitting.
Erick: Yeah, it seems to be the most close to, you could say, almost a universal truth. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or a set of universal truths because, one because they're principles so they can be applied and there's a bit of flexibility but also it just seems like the natural end to those questions. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah.
And that's, that's what I like about stoicism is that it's not an absolute you have to do these things. It's a. It's, here's the end result. And if you apply this in almost every situation, you will find this works and this is true. True. And, and I haven't found a situation where it hasn't worked. And so for me, that's been, yeah, that's why it's been so life changing for me because it helped me to see so many errors in my own thinking about things and my own reactivity and I used to be, I used to be much more hotheaded.
And now I'm much more calm about things like, like the other day, somebody sent me a really nasty note on Instagram because they didn't like a 60 second video that I put up and they were like, I can't get my time back and swearing at me. And I was like, wow. And at first I was like, you know, I, like you said, I felt that anger and I was just like, well, that's his problem.
Mark: You know, or like the stoics would say if it's his. reasoning So it's funny if, if somebody takes time to react on a message that took 60 seconds and he takes another 60 seconds to react, that's, that's okay. You've thought about this before you reacted like this. That's what, that's what you can define as stupid.
Erick: Exactly. And so I, I just was like, but I felt that little zing of like, and I had to just be like, okay, well, and oftentimes when I do that, I take even one further step back and I'm like, Wow, if somebody feels that way or feels that upset about something so small like that. Yeah,
Mark: imagine where they are in life.
Erick: Exactly. It almost, it made me feel sorry for them. And I have a little bit of empathy towards them. I'm just like, wow, that's, that's tough. If you're, if you're that upset because I had a 60 second video that you thought was me just rambling because I talk, I was in Florida at the time because I'm talking about the weather in Florida and then I, I, I proceeded to finish my lesson.
It was like, you know, 15 seconds of, Hey, here's the weather like this. It's kind of cool, blah, blah, blah. And then the, you know, the rest of the 60 second video was talking, you know, I think I was like, Hey, I'm going to be doing a Q & A session. Once you dance, you know, go ahead and post some questions here and I'll try and put them in there.
And I was like, wow, if he's that, if he's that upset over that. Wow, I feel, I feel kind of sorry for him.
Mark: Yeah, I think that's an empathic, empathetic way of looking at a situation.
Erick: Whereas before I would have been like, you're such a jerk. You're a jerk, no,
Mark: you're a jerk, no, you're a jerk.
Erick: Exactly. And so I decided that for me, it has been helpful because this allowed me to get more space in between that. Rather than reacting, I can respond better. And it's, it's definitely helped my life a lot. And I, I like not being reactive like that because I used to be much more reactive because it's how my dad was. That's how I grew up. Things, something upset you. It's just like,
Mark: Oh yeah, that's how you're probably wired and what you saw around you.
So that's really hard to change, but it gives a lot of freedom to, to feel that, right? That's, there's the freedom or else you become a slave of your upbringing or your father or your, or your, or somebody else who hurts you. And you can, you can be a leader for yourself instead of being a slave to the situation.
Erick: Yeah, and it's been really, really helpful. And I'm not perfect at it. I mean, there's still times when I get upset about things. Then I just have to
Mark: No, but I don't think Marcus Aurelius was or all these Stoics were.
Erick: Yeah. And they understood that. And that's, that's what's so great about Stoicism. It's not about perfection.
It's not about that you don't get angry. It's about how you choose to deal with that anger, you know, do you let it just consume you? Do you let it be reactive? Do you give that pause and just let it feel and just take a breath and let it out and then choose your response and there are many ways to do that And you just have to figure out which one's gonna be most effective for you.
Mark: Yeah, it's a misconception Stoicism right that stoic means that there's no anger or there's no I'm a normal guy. I'm not in the ideal situation. I'm not in the ideal situation of course, but of course there is in normal life. I, when I give presentations, that's the first thing I've done. When I talk about my father and I tell my story of being angry, I, I ask the audience who's angry sometimes and all the hands go up, you know, I say, well, good. Welcome in life.
This is what you feel. It's not a, it's a misconception that stoicism or being stoic means that you don't feel that anger. No, it can be there, but we're grownups. We have the ability to reason, so we can make a conscious choice to not give into that anger, but to give, to take distance from it and think about it and react in a different way and let it go.
That's what we as wiser, grown up people could do. That's our capability. That's up to us.
Erick: Yeah, and that's one of the things on my podcast. I talk a lot about people. I'm like, it's okay to feel all your feelings. Yeah. If you feel sad, okay. There are times where you want to feel sad. I mean, when somebody dies or If you love someone and you have to
Mark: let go, that's sad.
Erick: Yeah, and you want to grieve. You don't want to not feel those things. No. You want to grieve and you want to feel the full, you know, range of emotions in life. That's what makes life great is that you have all of these. And, and I see that on the Reddit sometime, you know, people will be like, ah, I'm feeling so sad about this thing and I don't want to, you know, how do I get rid of this emotion?
And it's like. You just gotta go through it. Just feel it. The more you resist feeling sad, the more it's gonna come back and get to you. And if you're able to just kind of flow with it, you know, you follow nature. Your nature is, nature is that we are emotional beings. So flow with those emotions.
But, but, what we're talking about is not letting them do, make you, not letting them drive you to do stupid things.
Mark: No, or not blaming anyone. Oh, you left me and now I feel hurt or sad. It's your fault. No, you're sad because somebody, you have to let somebody go or you don't want to let somebody go or else you wouldn't have felt sad.
So it's up to you. And not to change it, but to accept it. And feel it.
Erick: And accepting that. Absolutely. Accepting your emotions is an incredibly powerful tool. Because you're saying, it's one, it's acknowledging reality. I feel this way. That's reality. And
Mark: that's the beauty where logic comes in.
And I write it in a chapter five of my book, The Stoic Mindset, it's about amor fati. Hey accept your fate and love it. I think that's a really hard thing, especially if life throws you around or you, you get hurt or you have a terrible disease you have to encounter. And I think it can be really hard.
I have an example of Vivian Mantel. She was an Olympic Paralympic snowboarder and she had a beautiful life. She was a beautiful person. I interviewed her for my podcast. She's here in Holland. She's like. The pinnacle of, of the radiation of positive emotions of beauty, but still she was diagnosed with cancer, which she died from, from two years ago, sadly.
And she knew this, she knows, she knows she was going to die, but she still did all these things in life, which with a positive attitude, she never complained. She was there. She was cared for other people. She was a beautiful person. So that's also what's possible in that situation. So I think the funniest thing is that that's what I find the beauty in Stoicism.
It's in that sense rational because If you have the choice, you, she had like she, there was a doctor and the doctor told her you cannot snowboard anymore and you're going to die. You have cancer. So the logical thing to lead a good life and a fulfilling life is to, and this is terribly hard and I, I, I'm healthy.
So it's for me, it's easy to say, but if I look at her the logical thing to do is the only thing you can do is not only accept that, but also love it. The reality of life. This is my reality right now. And you can come, you can push it away, you can get angry of it, but that hurts you. So the life you have left is not going to be good.
It hurts you. So logically, if you want to lead a good life, the only option you have is to accept it. And if, if, if you want to lead a really good life, love it. Yeah. And that's, that's so hard, but it's logically, it's the only option you have.
Erick: There was a great article that I just read the other day and you'll love the title of it.
It's called “Welcome to Holland” Oh, yeah, and this woman wrote it and it was about how, kind of the story goes along. It's like so imagine you're planning a trip. You're going to Italy, you were excited. You wanted to go to Italy your whole life. You plan this trip. You've got it all down and you you make all the arrangements, you get off the plane, and the first thing that happens is, you, the stewardess, you know, welcomes you, and goes, “Hello! Welcome to Holland”.
You're like, wait a second, let's just go to Italy.
Mark: What's going on here? Why is the sun not shining? Where's my pasta? Where's my espresso?
Erick: So, and then you walk in and you're just like, but all these things I won't see. And, and, the woman who was talking about it, in regards to, sometimes the life that we want, flying to Italy,
it's not the life that we get. We end up in Holland. But if all we do is pine away for Italy and why we didn't get to Italy and life's unfair because we didn't get to go to Italy. Then we miss all the beautiful things about Holland. Yeah. We miss the windmills, we miss the canals, we miss
Mark: We miss the weather.
Erick: It's actually, I mean, I don't mind this weather. It's better. I lived in Minnesota for five years, so this weather is fine.
Mark: Well, I, I, my holidays I go to Italy because I love, I love Italy. I want to go there too, but I, we're here at the waterfront and it freezes over here. It's beautiful.
Erick: Absolutely. And that's the thing. It's just like all of the things here. Yes, we don't have, you know, Michelangelo's, but you have Rembrandt's here. You have Van Gogh's.
Mark: Yeah, we have Amsterdam. It's beautiful. That's what Epictetus is to quote. Do not seek to have events happen to you as you wish, but wish them to happen as they do happen and all will be well for you.
Exactly. It's just that I could not understand exactly what I mean. This is, yeah, Mark Aurelius said not this is a misfortune, but to bear this worthwily is a good fortune.
Erick: Yeah, absolutely. And so I, it was just funny that I stumbled on this article just a couple of days ago and I was like, that's so great. And I was like, given that I'm here…
Mark: So that's why you ended up here in Holland. You wanted to be here.
Erick: I didn't know where I was going. So I just, “Welcome to Holland!” Yeah, it was, it was, it was, but I really like that kind of metaphor about that and I thought it was appropriate for where we are. So just, I guess we'll finish up with a few more questions.
Here's a good one. Advice for aspiring Stoics. So if somebody is interested in Stoicism, what advice would you give? Are there specific books, practices or thought exercises you'd recommend?
Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Well, actually this is the question I got a lot especially during COVID and during presentation.
So the Stoic mindset, I really. I wrote it because it's an introduction into how you can think more stoic and how I deal with that. And there are 10 lessons in the book, which you can follow. So it's really an intro to stoicism. If you want to dive deeper, of course, I would say people yeah, get to the original text of Seneca, of Marcus Aurelius, of Seneca is easy to read.
It's a good intro. Marcus Aurelius. It's not something, you know, the meditations you, you, you probably will read from A to Z within an evening is more, you read it through it and you contemplate and, and Epictetus, it's a little harder to, to, to follow and grasp, especially the whole bundle. So, but it's definitely worthwhile, I think, if you look at the Stoics and think of where they come from and what situation they were in life and it's unfortunate that we don't have all the texts of the early Stoics.
Yeah. And, and if you think of the Greek empire and the Roman empire and the Greek city state, Athens. What happened there? It's a beautiful way where these, these people went through challenges. So, so read them and think about that. What, what does that mean? If you, you know, if you're the emperor of Rome and you encounter not only the loss of children and the betrayal of your best general, but also a pandemic that ravages your empire, how do you deal with that?
How do you keep sane? How do you keep doing the right things? So if you wanted the leadership lessons, start with Marcus Aurelius. If you want to have a friend who gives you some friendly and more worldly advice, go to Seneca. If you want to have a teacher who sometimes is stern and tells you what to do, look for Epictetus.
So that's. Where I would start off with and with practices. Yeah, for me making the distinction between what is up to you or what is not up to you is really powerful. Stephen Covey borrowed it of course from Epictetus and it's beautiful I think because if There's a high pressure situations that that's what I always do.
If I have a hard time, I tell myself, okay, if I have to let someone go or it's a situation I am having trouble with handling or a companion in my company, which, which I have a situation with or a confrontation with it's okay, what's up to me. What's not up to me. It's my internal state. I can do the things for myself in a good manner.
I focus on the right things to do. And I work hard for that, but the reaction of the other person is not up to me. The goal we want to reach as a company is not up to me, especially in COVID you can make a perfect business planning. You can think of products coming your way and then COVID happens and everything goes down the drain.
Every plan you had. So it's not only the output, it's the input you put in. You have to devise a new plan. You have to sit together, et cetera, et cetera. So try to do that. And for me, like I said, at the end of your day. Like Seneca did, try to think of, I think thinking of death, it sounds a little scary or not natural for people to do, but I think that's a liberating thought.
If you think about death, it's for me, it's liberating in life. I write in my book, one of the principles I write about is death makes life more epic. Yeah. Thinking about death, about the end, makes Life more epic because it makes you think about the choices you make. Are these good choices? Do you stand by them?
Do you live a life where you live a life according to your values? Do you live the hardest thing people ask themselves when they die? If they have regrets, the regrets always revolve around that they didn't lead their own life. They led a life what other people wished for them or put upon them. Yeah. So that's powerful stuff.
You should think about that every day, not at the end of your life, but right now. Yeah.
Erick: I think most people regret the things they didn't do.
Mark: Yeah, exactly. So live a life with no regrets. And of course, like again, you will have some. You have some. You will do stupid stuff. You're a human being.
Erick: Yeah. And you may regret the dumb things you did, but I find that the things that I regret the most are the things that I didn't do, or the chances that I didn't take.
You know, I, you know, yes, there's some things that I did and I wish that I hadn't done them because they were tough, but I learned from them. And so I don't necessarily regret them. I, I may not think fondly on them, but I don't necessarily truly regret them.
Mark: No, but if you see a herd of people doing something and it becomes right, or it becomes, that's why these questions are so powerful.
What is good? You know, is it something we do in the society? Is it, is it the norm? Is this in a society which we follow? Does this, is this your way you really want to live or is this your own path or do you follow a safe path, which everybody will not judge you or everybody won't be mad at you or et cetera, et cetera.
So there are a lot of powerful things working against. We have freedom for us. To reach our full potential and to break through these barriers. To break through the mold and to open up and be free with regards to other people. It's not like, well, I'll do whatever I want and woohoo, freedom. Yeah.
That's not what real freedom is. So what is it? Well, maybe Stoicism has pretty good answers on that.
Erick: but yeah, I mean, for me, that's kind of why I'm here. It was that it, it was actually kind of scary and there were times I mean there's even, you know, time leading up to here where I just kind of panicked and be like, what am I doing?
And I'm like, well, this is crazy. I'm just coming over
Mark: You come over to Amsterdam, maybe live here, et cetera.
Erick: Yeah. And I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just making it up as I go along and trying to find new opportunities and try to see what I'm supposed to do in this life. And so right now it's very much exploring and it's, it's scary at times.
I'm just like, what am I doing here? I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm meeting people. I, you know, I met some people at a meetup last night that were really cool. Just getting out there and trying to make things happen. I mean, I never would have gotten to do this if I hadn't. No. And this has been great.
I've been really enjoying this.
Mark: So you have to sit with the discomfort. You have to sit with the chaos. You have to. Do not change it, but sit with it. And I think that's I think, yeah, there, there, there's beauty on the other side. If you want to go there and sometimes things happen, you never would have imagined.
Erick: And since I've been here, there've been some days where I'm just like, ah, what am I doing here? I should just go home. It's much more comfortable there. You know, I know all these, I know, I know people, I know how life lives, you know, trying to navigate things here because I don't quite speak Dutch yet, so working on learning that.
I mean, I speak German, so I understand, I understand a lot of it and it's actually made a big difference. I can understand, I can sit in most conversation and understand most of what's going on.
Mark: And it's funny, you know what, because I have, I'm, I'm going to the world championships in Canada and Calgary for speed skating commentary on television.
And I love Canada. I love going to the Rockies and I thought about, Oh, I have to, maybe I want to go there a couple of days earlier and see it. And I do that because I'm gone from home a long time. And it's such a. It was really, I said, well, if I think about this two days, I really already could have made the choice to go two days earlier.
I don't have to think about it. Just do it and see what I do because I want to do that. So why not? Yeah. There are 10 reasons why you couldn't or shouldn't, et cetera, et cetera. And there's one reason like, let's, I want to do it. Let's just do it and see what happens. Yeah. And that's the thing is you, that's so small.
This is a small example.
Erick: Yeah. And I mean, I, I know that if I didn't come that I would regret it. And I had a good friend of mine, she kept saying that. She's just like, if you don't go, you will regret it. So just, you're living, you're living a dream that you've wanted to do for quite some time. And that so many people would love to do. And you have this opportunity. You are in, you are in a place where this works for you, so you better go do that. And I'm like. Thank you.
Mark: Oh, that's great, man. Just kind of resetting my mind. That's kind of funny because I thought, hey, we have a digital conversation, maybe through a podcast, but you're actually here.
So, okay. Now I know the story.
Erick: Yeah, no, it's been great. All right. I think kind of exhausted most of my questions. Is there anything else that you want to add to it? So go ahead and tell people where they can find you. And anything else you'd like them or you want any socials that kind of thing.
So go ahead. Yeah.
Mark: You can always find me through Instagram, Twitter LinkedIn, Mark Tuitert. And my surname is T U I T E R T.
Erick: And I will put that in the show notes for the episode. So if you want to go find him, you can find him.
Mark: So you can find me here with contact info. I do speaking engagements and my book, the stoic mindset is out in April in the US, Canada, UK.
So I'm really excited to to, to tell my story. I hope. Yeah.
