Transcript:
Erick: Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. I share my thoughts on Stoic Philosophy and share my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break.
So normally my episodes are just me talking about Stoic Philosophy, but I like to do interviews occasionally with people that I find interesting and I think that can add value to your lives. And this week I have my friend Sam Bennett on here. Sam Bennett is an author of multiple books, mostly dealing with productivity and dealing with creative blocks.
And I will let Sam introduce herself and talk about her background, where she comes from and what she's doing. And Yes, I think it's going to be a far ranging, interesting conversation. We'll probably hit up on some productivity things, passing creative blocks, and who knows what after that?
Sam: Hi, Erick.
Erick: Hey.
Sam: Hi, everybody. Thanks for being here.
Erick: So tell us a bit about yourself and so that my audience gets to know you a little bit better.
Sam: Yeah. Um, hi, audience. Let's see. I grew up in Chicago. I was a theater kid. I was one of those kids who put on shows in the living room, in the backyard, and I went to theater camp, and I, I was that weirdo.
Um, and uh, eventually I got a job at the Second City Theater, uh, and I worked there for almost ten years, which meant that I'm still friends with some of the great comedy minds of all time. Um, but you know, at the time we were just, you know, Kids doing shows together. We're just all in our twenties, working for, I don't know, 75 bucks a show, and there's a picture from my first wedding, and it's me, you know, in the big white dress, and then there's Stephen Colbert, and Steve Carell, and Amy Gomez, and Jim Belushi, and you know, all the people, um, and, uh, It was great.
It was fun. It was hard. Um, it was an incredible education. And, uh, And I had one of those acting careers, you know, in Chicago and then later in Los Angeles that went well enough that you didn't want to give up on it. I mean, I worked. I was paid to be on television which is more than a lot of people can say.
But it never paid me enough to for me to make a living at it. So along the way, I just got really interested in this question of how do highly creative people make decisions? so much. How do people with a lot of talents and skills figure out what to do? Once they've figured out what to do, how do they figure out how to market it and sell it in a way that feels Cool and ethical and, and right to them, you know, um, when you could sort of, you know, what should I do?
Should I have a podcast like Erick? Should I host a regatta? Should I stand on the street corner with a sandwich board? Like, what do I do? And I was always pretty good about getting things done. That was never really a problem for me. And one of the quirks of my mind is that I face a question like that and I think, well, how would I figure that out?
How would I figure it out? If I, if I was anybody other than myself, how would I figure out what to do? So I started coming up with a lot of worksheets and exercises and little imagination games and I started teaching a class called Get It Done, um, in a church basement in Van Nuys, California, you know, to like 11 people.
Again, the same 75 bucks, like, I don't know, you know. Um, pardon me. But it was really fun and, uh, and eventually I wrote the book, Get It Done, From Procrastination to Creative Genius in 15 Minutes a Day, which, hair toss, hair toss, got endorsed by Seth Godin, which I'm totally not over. Totally not over. Um, and yeah, and it just kind of grew into this whole line of, of work, of helping people get unstuck and get their work out of their heads, out of the house, out into the world.
Erick: Nice. And so with that experience, what do you find are the most common things that people do that keeps them from doing that? And what are the most common or I guess the most practical ways of getting past that? So I know that's something I've struggled with a lot because I, I have so many interests of so many things I want to do.
And I even took time off from this podcast because I was like, Oh, I want to focus on music because podcasts are taking a lot of time and then fell back into the podcast because I've. I found I needed it, I joke around and call it my public therapy. And then, you know, I took another break and I was going to do Unreal Engine and found out that I just, you know, used this very expensive computer that I bought to play video games and wasn't doing anything with Unreal.
So again, came back to the podcast because I was, you know, working through some of these things. So with that said, sorry to me to kind of jump in and spill my story, but, um, yeah, Yeah, what are the most common things that keep people from doing that and how they can move past some of those things?
Sam: Yeah, well I think your story is actually not only interesting but illustrative because a lot of, often the advice I give is follow the sparkly breadcrumbs.
You know, we don't really know where this is going, there isn't a right answer. There's just your answer, and the things that I see get people stopped, particularly smart people and sensitive people, is overthinking. Right? So they get trapped inside their own heads. Perfectionism, I hear the word overwhelm a lot, I hear the word procrastination a lot, I hear the word Um, uh, uh, procrastination, overwhelmed, busy, I just let myself get so busy.
And what I, yeah, so my first thought is always like, well, just try it, like try it, see where it goes. And as you say, like, oh, I still love music, but I find the day to day, it doesn't give me the same, you know, reward that doing this podcast does. So great. I can move music a little bit further down the list of important things to do.
Um, or I can be something I make sure that I do just for me and My heart, I don't need to share it with the world. Um, and just cause it's occurring to me, this is an important distinction that I think doesn't get made often enough is the difference between hobby and art.
Erick: Yes.
Sam: Um, hobby is a little word. It's a word that sounds very small and dismissive. Oh, it's just a hobby, but I think hobbies are crucial. I think they're critical. I think they're part of our soul's development. I think they're part of the things that bring us joy and satisfaction on this earth and, uh, anything that you love to do, but you would never want to have to do, and you don't ever really want to monetize it.
That's that it is important that those stay a hobby. When I was. Back at the age when all my friends were having kids, I used to make cashmere sock monkeys for everyone, for all the children, for the babies. They were adorable! And everybody's like, oh my god, you make cashmere sock monkeys! You should totally sell these!
This would make a great business! But I'm like, nope. These cashmere sock monkeys are a gift of love from my heart to this baby, and I never want it to be anything more than that.
On the other hand, there's another word that I'm calling art, which is a very big word and probably too big of a word because it sounds sort of intimidating. But what I mean is, whatever the thing is, And it may or may not be an artistic thing, but it's the thing you have a gift for that you know you must share with the world.
You know it's something. It's bigger than you. It's, it's, it drives, it has a drive to it. It has an energy to be shared. And it hurts me when people either put the pressure of public opinion on their hobby, which should just be for them and the people who love them, Or take something that is truly their heart's mission and say, Oh, it's just a hobby.
Oh, that, that doesn't matter. So I think that's an important distinction of like, keep trying things. Cause we don't know, we don't always know ahead of time, you know, um, what's going to be which, and then, and then really pay attention to the feedback you get, like follow the sparkly breadcrumbs and really notice how you feel as you do it.
Erick: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That definitely makes sense for me because the times that I took off from working on the podcast and tried other things. Um, I've found that there were just moments where I would, I would learn this life lesson because you know, I've been studying stoicism for, for a while and it was just like, Oh, this is so good.
And I would sit down and, and write an episode and just be like, you know, I can't sit on this. This is something I need to share. And if, if this is something I'm struggling with, I'm pretty sure that somebody else is struggling with it out there. And my podcast was my way to work through a lot of that shit.
I would say probably about 80 percent of my podcasts are strictly personal things that I was dealing with. And I was like, okay, how do I do this? And sitting down and writing an episode was my way of processing that and working through those things, whereas some others, you know, I would see an interesting, uh, Video or podcast episode or read an interesting article or book.
And I would talk about that because there was some really good lesson that I thought somebody should share. But yeah, I think that, and so in a way my podcast has been a hobby, but it's kind of evolved into something more because it's something I found I was good at and because the response was really, you know, pretty tremendous about it and it has been.
Uh, where some of the music I put out, um, you know, hasn't really gone anywhere. But I haven't put out nearly as much music as I have podcast episodes, so it's
Sam: So it's a little unfair to judge one by the other. Exactly. You know, I once wrote an entire training around, um, Shawshank, around the movie Shawshank, and the principles of stoicism as they appear in Shawshank Redemption.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I think Shawshank is a very stoic movie. Yeah. It's that acceptance of what is and changing what you can. Right. And you just have to, you know, You just have to deal with things and yeah, so one of my favorite scenes in there is, you know, I think for a lot of people, it's that one where he locks the office door and he plays that, that opera and, you know, and the whole prison is just like, you know, and um, then they throw him in the, in the, in the hole meaning solitary confinement for two weeks and he comes back out and they're like, man, that must've been tough, you know, two weeks in the hole.
And he's just like. It was easy. Why? It's like, because they can't, they can't get in here. Right. They can't, they can't control this. They might put me in that cell, but they, they can't control this. Right. And I think, uh, Morgan Freeman character goes, I knew what he was talking about and that was hope. But it was that whole thing of like, you can throw me in the hole, doesn't matter.
You can imprison my body, but you can't imprison my soul.
Sam: Exactly. Exactly. And, um, and that's something, you know, again, you're asking what I see a lot of, I'm sure you do too, is, uh, a lot of people spending a lot of time fighting. Reading and complaining about all the stuff that is outside of their sphere of influence, all the stuff that is outside of their immediate control, and not spending nearly enough time, if any time at all, on the stuff that actually is within their sphere of control.
You know, it always feels like, oh, it's them, it's them, it's the government, it's the economy, it's that boss, it's that person, it's that woman at the end of the table, it's my sister in law, it's them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them, them. If they weren't here, if they weren't behaving the way they were, if these circumstances were different, then I would be fine.
And that is a lie. That is a terrible, insidious lie.
Erick: Yeah, I think that it's that whole thing of, uh, what Steve Martin said, be so good they can't ignore you. You know, don't complain that your audience doesn't like what you're getting out there. Make something your audience likes. Or be okay with the fact that you wrote something and not that many people are that interested in it.
You can't control what your audience likes.
Sam: And how many fans do you really need, right? I mean, there's the famous article, a thousand true fans. I mean, how successful do you need this to be? Uh, and, you know, I certainly working, you know, having been a performer my whole life and, and, and working with them.
But I see it with entrepreneurs too. It's like, well, but, you know, Like, I can't get ahead until I, you know, until I get an agent or a manager, but I can't get an agent or manager until I get ahead. I can't, you know, how do I stop being a nobody and start being a somebody? It's like, stop trying to, stop trying to win them over.
They're not your parents. Like, winning them over didn't work with your parents and it's not going to work with agents and managers either.
Erick: Very true.
Sam: Right? Same thing with job seekers. Like, well, how do I get the hiring people to notice me? Go off on to do your own thing loud enough and big enough and brilliant enough that they come to you because everybody wants to be a part of something that's already working
Erick: and it's really
Sam: Annoying
Erick: and
Sam: Simple facts. So..
Erick: yeah, I mean, I found for me, for example, even though I haven't made much money off this podcast, the business connections I'm making is I'm switching over into leadership coaching and training, um, because of the podcast. And so one of the contacts I'm working with. Which I'm pretty sure will come through.
I asked the gal, you know, she's incredibly helpful. Wants me to come speak at her company, doing all of these things. And I was like, and I asked her, I said, so why are you doing this for me? Because you were doing a lot. Like this is what I would pay any, uh, An agent or a marketer or you know, somebody in PR to do, for me to try and set all this up to go speak at your company and get paid for it and to announce my coaching program and do all of these things.
And she's like, well, there's two reasons. One, this is what my job is, is I help employees within my company. And so two, well actually three things. So two, your tool to help me do that. What you have helps these people. So you are a tool, you, this is. Number three is, you have given, you've paid it forward so far.
You know, we've got over 300 episodes. You've been paying it out into the world. And now it's time for that stuff to come back. Your consistency, your, your dedication to continually doing this has helped me through some of the darkest times. And we, we, we had dinner the other night, and she was explaining, you know, some things in her life, and there was some crazy shit.
It was just like, what? Yeah. She was like, yeah. And the way that I got through was because when I was feeling stressed out, I would listen to your podcast, it would help me calm my brain a bit, and I was able to actually function where like, emotionally, I was a wreck, and just You know, it's just like, I just want to quit this whole thing and, you know, get out of this country, but I got kids and I can't do that.
And, uh, you know, like I'm freaking out and, you know, listen to your podcast, go, oh, okay. That's why I'm freaking out. Thanks. And I'm just like, wow, that's, that's amazing to hear. So,
Sam: So amazing. And there's so many important things in what you're saying. One is for all of you who are. sitting on something that you know you want to do, that you know would make a difference to yourself, to the world, to whomever.
But, you know, it's not quite perfect, you're not quite sure what it's going to be, you're not quite sure what the methodology is, maybe it should be this, maybe it should be that. Knock it off. Quit getting ready to get ready, and just start getting it out into the world. And you know, my latest book is called The 15 Minute Method, and I'm like, spend 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you.
P. S. That's the entire 15 Minute Method. That's the whole idea. Ta da! How I turned that into 45, 000 words, I'll have, I'll never know.
But so what I want to say is, you know, well, it's not perfect. It's not perfect. I don't want to get it out there, but it's not perfect. Do you love the things you love because you're perfect because they're perfect. You love the people you love because they're perfect the movies you love the music you love because it's perfect music.
No, you love it because it means something to you, right? So your work is sitting there tapping you on the shoulder this idea, whatever that idea is for you out there. It's tapping on the shoulder and it has been for some time. It probably has to do with your zone of creative genius. Yeah. And it probably has something to do with, like, why you're here or where you're going.
So quit getting in your own way. You don't know who, what person you're going to touch, whom you will be changing, what, what will change for you. And the key I think is to, when I say zone of creative genius, the things we love about our zone of creative genius is because we love the action of doing it, even when there's no result.
Or no tangible result, we love the person we become as we are doing it. So it's not just that you did 300 episodes. It's the person you became as you did 300 episodes. That also puts you in a position where you are now hirable by this person. You weren't hirable by her 300 episodes ago. She may have liked what you were up to.
She may have thought you were interesting, but she wasn't going to, you know, I'm going to put you in front of her boss and everybody in the entire department. But now you walk the path to here.
Erick: Exactly. And the funny thing for me was that, you know, I tell the story often is that I started the podcast, not because I wanted to make a podcast about stoic philosophy. I started the podcast because I wanted to practice making a podcast. And because stoicism was what I was studying at that time, I was like, okay, I'll, I'll make a practice podcast, so I understand how it works about stoic philosophy.
That's just what I think about every day is I'm writing in the stoic journal that I bought and, um, it was just something to talk about and do this practice. And. If you listen to my first 50 episodes, some of them are really crappy. I mean, they are not good. I did them on my iPhone with my earbuds in and just recorded it.
Sometimes while I was just going on a walk, I'd just be like, Okay, that's what I'm going to talk about today. And then sometime they had this whole thing where you could put music behind it. And so I tried that, you know, and people complained about that. And I'm like, yeah, it is harder to hear my voice.
When I have this music playing, so I'll cut that out, um, try different themes. The theme song that I've been using for the last probably four years was one that I wrote, actually. It's a piece of music that I wrote, uh, and I love it. To me, it's just one of the, the coolest things that I've ever written. And I, so it was like, oh, I can just take this little snippet of it and, and, uh, and play that.
And I love that. And so for me, that was something that was really, uh, It became a, a, a way for me to kind of test these things out because I wasn't afraid to, to try it because it was like, okay, well, it's just a practice podcast anyway. And then suddenly when I had, you know, 10,000 downloads, I was like, Oh, people are actually listening to what I have to say.
And they were emailing me and stuff like that. So it was, it took on a life of its own, which was really fascinating for me.
Sam: I think, uh, if you sort of plucked a little string that I want to circle back to, which is, I think sometimes. the thing that stops people from taking action on the stuff that they really want to do is a fair bit of fear and anxiety, which is, of course you're afraid.
Who wouldn't be? My goodness. It's terrible. Putting out, putting, putting work out into the world is terrible. Putting yourself out into the world is incredibly, it's just, it's just nail biting. Um, and I think sometimes people look at. You or me or something like that. Well, it must have been easier for Erick, you know, because he has all these skills.
He has this voice, he has this music, he has this, he could do this. It must have been easier for Sam. She'd already written two books, so this third, you know, maybe a third book isn't that big of a deal. It must have been easier for so and so. It must have been easier because they're so beautiful, because they come from a wealthy family, because they don't seem to have any problems.
I don't know. But I'm here to tell you, it's hard for everybody. And we're afraid too. We may not be afraid of exactly the same things you are afraid of, but we are definitely afraid. And the mountain is just as steep for everyone to climb. So stop making that excuse for yourself of like, well, you know, at some point it's going to be easier.
I'm going to have more confidence. No, confidence is the thing you get after.
Erick: Yeah, absolutely
Sam: I really wish there was some way I could like, you know, beam this information and people said like, well, I'm not sure if I can do it. Right, of course, how could you be sure if you could do it if you have not yet done it, you know, but if you're standing on the top of the high dive thinking, well, I wish I had the confidence to jump off like, no, you have to jump.
And then afterwards you come up out of the water going, I did it. I am going to do it again because now I have confidence. Right. And we all have this it's. It's just as miserable as we think it's going to be, that moment at the top of the high dive, that moment before you hit send, that moment before you say hi to that person, the moment before you start writing that book, but if you take it in baby steps, that can help, if you do it with a group, that can help, a little positive peer pressure, people going, yay, jump off the high dive, yay, um, And, again, if you do it in that zone of creative genius, if you do it in that, and first of all, hat tip to Kay and Katie Hendrix and their amazing work on zones of creative, on zones of genius.
Um, but if you are doing it in the sphere of things that you love to do anyway, right? We all have these things that, like, we just love that, like, it's so mysterious, like, maybe nobody else in your family is into it, no, but none of your friends are into it. But you've always been a little fascinated, you always, you're watching all the documentaries about it.
You know, people are like, wait, you're driving to where and paying how much to go to an exhibition of what? And you're like, Hey, I don't know. I can't wait. And they're like, Okay, okay, friend, have fun. Like that is your zone of creative genius. It's the thing that and you probably don't notice it because it's come so naturally to you that it just sort of seems like seems sort of obvious or like, well, everybody is good at this or everybody would be interested in this.
No, no, they're not. Um, and so to take those, I also think of it as like the thing that if somebody came to you at three in the morning and woke you up and was like, Hey, hey, hey, we're going to go, we're gonna go do this thing. You want to, you want to come and do the thing? And you'd be like, Oh yeah. Where's my shoes?
Okay. Let's go. I'm up. Like, what is that thing? And whatever that thing is, do more of that thing. Even for just 15 minutes a day.
Erick: Yeah. I think that the interesting thing for me is that I felt When I, there was a, there was a point in my podcast where I got popular enough that I began to feel an even stronger sense of imposter syndrome.
Like at the beginning, I knew I was, I was kind of an idiot and I was just like, Hey, this is what I learned about stoic philosophy today. And so, yeah. And so it was like, okay, but then once I reached a certain level of popularity, you know, I had, you know, a hundred thousand, 200, 000 downloads or something like that.
And I was like, Oh, man. Wow. I have a real audience and I was like, Oh, and sometimes the, there was a lot of anxiety with episodes, which is why I began writing them down rather than just off the cuff because I wanted to get things right. And I, part of that was the perfectionism that I, I wanted to have with it.
It's like, Oh, well, if people are depending on me, I want to make sure it's good. But second was also that I found in writing those episodes that I dug into it a lot deeper. And so I could rather than just going, okay, here's, here's the, here's what, understanding what you can control, what you can't control by digging, by writing an essay about that, basically.
I found I could find, find the deeper nuggets in that. And I could also have twists in there. Sometimes I would, you know, I'd be like, there was one I wrote. It was called the, the Unpursuit of Happiness. And it was like, stop trying to chase being happy. Happiness is a by product of being satisfied with what you do and who you are.
Happiness, happiness is a result. It's not a destination. You don't, you don't. You know, go today, I'm going to be happy. You can decide that you want to be in a better mood and take some steps to do that. But you can't just say, you know, happy, I'm going to do this thing and I will be happy. You do that thing and you might be happy because there's plenty of times when you get that thing that you wanted and you thought you were going to be so happy when you got that and you're not.
And you're like, wait, I worked so hard for this thing. But that's, you know, in Stoicism, we realize that's where we so focus so much on the outcome. Like, oh, I'm going to put this episode out. It's going to get. 50,000 downloads and that it only gets, you know, 15 on the first week, but over time it finally hits 50,000, but that's okay.
But it's like that. I never put out my episodes and think, yeah, this is going to be one that's going to, I'm going to hit a million on this or anything like that. I just put it out and then like months later, go back and look at the statistics and go, Oh, that's interesting. And. Yeah, so I find that, like you said, you just have to get out there and, and do it.
And even when you get successful, you still have that imposter syndrome, which I did for a long time. Now, not so much, but that's because. I think some of it was my own insecurities about things, and I really, using Stoicism worked really hard through that.
Sam: Yeah. So,
Erick: go ahead.
Sam: Well, just, uh, uh, uh, uh, again, a number of sort of threads I want to pull on.
One is, it takes a great deal of stamina to remain patient with yourself. While you develop the skill sets up to your own taste level, right? Ira Glass is a wonderful little film about this. Absolutely. Um, you know, we, we have something we have a passion for, and we immediately realized that we're terrible at it.
Erick: Yeah, our taste is good.
Sam: Our taste is good. But our creativity is terrible.
Erick: Exactly.
Sam: And, and it does, it, it's really hard to, you know, that's, you know, when I talk about working in the salt mines of comedy, you know, you spent a long time around the best people in the world, figuring it out and figuring it out and failing and failing and failing and going to class and going to rehearsal and going to class and going to rehearsal.
And doing a show and having it not go well, and doing a show and having it not go well, and having it not go okay. And then, you know, we, this is how, this is how we, we learn and grow is through, through experience and, and staying patient with yourself and staying connected to your own, Um, and really honoring that drive that you feel, you know, honoring that, that thing inside you, that's like, I don't know, I just really want to, I know I'm terrible at it, but I really feel like it.
And since this is a podcast, partly about leadership. Yeah. One of the things I strongly recommend for leaders of any stripe is to make sure you are in a position at least once a week at which you are an abject beginner. I want you in, like, not just beginner's mind, but like, intimidated mind. Like, everyone in this room is miles better than me, mind.
I used to, um, lift weights and, and, and do CrossFit and stuff, and I loved it! Partly because it was really hard. And because I was not that good at it. There were a few things, the lifting heavy things part, I was pretty good at, but the rest of it, I was terrible, but I loved being so terrible. I loved it that every time I did it, I was working at the very limit of my ability.
I loved it that it was hard. I loved it that other people around me were killing it. And I was like, what, how do you even, you amaze me. And, you know, being so enchanted by the skills of others. And I just think it's so important for leaders. To, like I said, to put yourself in a position where you are at the back of the line, pal.
And to remember that this is how some of your employees feel. This is how some of your clients and customers feel. And to take all that discomfort and that, that psychological distress. And I tell a story in 15 Minute Method about being at a terrible workout and I'm like, you know, one of those, you're red spaced and stuff. Spitting and crying, you know, just awful.
And, uh, and finally the trainer came up to me and she goes, does it hurt, or is it just hard?
And I was like, Oh, Yeah. It's just hard. And she goes, good marks away. And I know that's such an important question because yeah, it's something hurts if your job is hurting you. If your marriage is hurting you, if your friendship is hurting you, if you're whatever group you're involved in is hurting you, that's a sign that something's wrong, you need to hit the pause button and take a look at what is causing you pain.
But if it's just hard, welcome to it, sister.
Erick: Yeah. It kind of reminds me of the. Well, you were saying kind of to nail that, it's that idea of if you're the smartest person in the room, you need to change rooms.
Sam: Find a better room.
Erick: Exactly. Only play tennis with
Sam: Better tennis players.
Erick: Exactly. Yeah. I remember, um, I know I've talked a lot about myself on this, mostly because, because I do a creative pursuit and it's, it's what's what I work on every week, almost every day.
Um, but I remember when I first started wrestling, my best friend Bobby had been wrestling for four years. And he was one of the best wrestlers in the state. He was, he was absolutely amazing. And I was in the beginner's class for a while, but then I had something that conflicted with that. And so I would go to the advanced class after, you know, this was after school.
And since he was in that, you know, I'd wrestle with him because he was my best friend. And he would kick my ass all over the place. He was, it was amazing. And so for like every two or three points, I would make he'd make 15, bam. He was so good. And then, uh, something happened and I had to switch it up. And I went to the beginner's class a couple of weeks later.
And some of these other wrestlers who had been beating me when I first started, I was just creaming them. They're like, how did you get so good? And I'm like, I'm not that good. I'm just look at Bobby. They're like, no, no, but you, and I was like, Oh, it's because I had to work so hard just to get two or three points.
Sam: Right.
Erick: Where, when I was wrestling the other kids who were about my skill level, it was, it was fairly even. And so it was, it was pretty easy or I was generally a little bit better. And now I eclipsed them because I've been getting my ass whooped so hard by Bobby for weeks on end.
Sam: Because you increased the resistance. And I think for some of you people out there, I was just talking to a client the other day who I think was having this problem, she was having this sort of like, meh, you know, everything was kind of meh. And I'm like, well, what, what would be exciting for you? What would delight you? What would entrance you?
What would, meh, meh, meh. I was like, all right, let's just hundred X what we're talking about here. Because clearly, this is all just boring the ass off you, and there's no reason to spend, you know, you're the, the only, the only real tender of your life, which is time, on something that's not gonna thrill, thrill you, like, truly thrill you.
Um, the other thing I will say about this, and this has occurred to me earlier when we were talking, so, since it's, I have a little rule in my head that if I think it three times, I have to say it. So, I thought this three times, so now I'm gonna say it. Um, I, like so many people, have lived with depression and anxiety my whole life.
I had it when I was a child, and there wasn't such a thing as childhood depression when I was a kid. Um, weird. Just weird. I was a weird kid. And sad. And the same often seems sad. Yes, I was sad. Um, and one of the ways, uh, and I have what they call atypical depression, which is, I don't know why they call it atypical, because it's very typical.
It's very common. Um, but it is not the like, oh, I'm crying and I can't get out of bed kind of depression. I'm really high functioning. Like I can go out in the world and do things and have everybody think I'm fine. It's more that sort of inside a glass box. Like, everybody thinks I'm great and I can't really feel it. Um, and one of the ways it shows up is in a, uh, a thing called anhedonia, which is the inability to take pleasure in things,
Erick: Right?
Sam: We know the word hedonism, which is taking too much pleasure in things. Anhedonia is no pleasure in things. And so what that means is often I'm having the experience of being here going like, Oh my gosh, I'm getting here to sit and talk with my friend, Erick.
This is so fun. I can perceive that this. is fun. I don't really have the sensation of fun, but I understand that it is fun. Now, I realize this must sound incredibly grim, and it's not. But I want to give a little relief. Sometimes when I say this, people are like, oh my god, I thought I was just like incredibly cynical.
Like, no, no, you're not. I mean, you might be cynical, but you might also just have a lower reaction to that kind of thing. So we start to look again, what are more interesting words, right? What's more interesting than overwhelmed, busy, perfectionist? What's more interesting than fun or happy? Like, oh, I can feel satisfied.
I can feel warm. I can feel safe. I can feel turned on sometimes depending on what's going on, you know, like, what are the other words? That signals some kind of reward to you.
Erick: So you think that, so basically rather than looking for an overall joy, overall happiness, it's more of a fine toothed, or more of a laser pointed, you know, uh, delineation of, of what it is you're doing and finding satisfaction with that.
Sam: Absolutely. And very in the moment, like, wow, this butter toast is like, so good reading this book in the sunshine is so delicious. You know, having this cat curled up on me, purring is so Lovely. So, so flattering, you know? Like, I think we sometimes think that the big things are going to throw big switches, but it's really, life is made up of little things.
You know, of little, little, little moments. It's the only thing I talk about in the book. Actually, I talk about a thing called micro blessings, which is mostly my antidote to gratitude lists. I'm in favor of gratitude. I'm in favor of an attitude of gratitude. I'm in favor of gratitude journals. I love all of it.
And I find that those lists sometimes get. Kind of generic pretty quick. I'm grateful for my family. I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful. Of course you are, of course you are, but are you feeling that, you know, does that really move you? Does that wake you up in the morning? Does that get you spending 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you? You know, whereas I can go, Oh, the warmth of the tea coming through the mug to this hand. I have an old injury on this hand, so it feels especially good.
Erick: So would you say that it's kind of like a mindfulness and being present?
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Being present and being even a little inquisitive. Like, what is it about this that I'm enjoying so much? Why do I have to stop and look every time I see the moon? Why do I, you know, what is it about the sound of the waves or the, you know, watching the kitten videos or whatever it is that you love to do, like to not just go like, oh, I like this, but like, what, what is it about it? That is enriching and fulfilling to me.
And, and can I find more of that?
Erick: And so you've, with this exercise, you found that it was a way to kind of counteract that, that natural kind of sadness or depression by finding that gratitude, finding those, those moments of mindfulness and saying, okay, well, I don't feel this overall great. You know, happiness at, at this certain level, I can, I can grab my own bits of happiness and appreciate them by being, by focusing on these small things.
Sam: Yeah. And I think, yeah, it's just noticing your life as it's happening and noticing the pleasures of life as they are happening. Uh, and I think that's all we have. I mean, when we look back on our lives and, you know, we think, oh, you know, what were the greatest moments of your life so far? I mean, some of them might have been more typical, top of the world moments, but most of them for me are very small moments, are very intimate, fleeting moments.
Erick: Yeah, I was, uh, I like to follow Arthur Brooks. I think that some of what he teaches is pretty interesting. He's a professor of, of happiness, I guess you would call it. And he studies happiness at Harvard. I writes for the Atlantic. Um, I've seen different interviews with him, like Tim Ferriss, diary of a CEO.
And over the years, as they've researched this, they find that your level of satisfaction in life, your level of happiness in life, that at least 50 percent is just genetics. There's just going to be a natural component and, um, for me, I find that mine is probably about average, maybe a little less so. But I know that much of that comes from my background and my, you know, the childhood I grew up with.
And there's a lot of unconscious stuff that, I'm sure I'm still working through as, as I go on this path of stoicism, but like, I have a friend here in Amsterdam who was originally from Russia and he grew up very poor. They actually had to have a farm in the back of their yard if they wanted to make sure they had enough food.
I mean, that's how poor they were. His mom worked in a factory. His dad left when he was young and he said, and that was a good thing. I'm glad my dad wasn't there. Um, but he's like, but you know, I always felt loved, even though my mom was very kind of, she was cold in a way, but she was very matter of fact and very practical about life and she wasn't super warm, but I knew that she loved me.
So that was fine. And, but he just genuinely is just one of these naturally happy people. Like he just has this. It's like he almost has a smile on his face all the time just kind of naturally like his natural facial expression You know, they have resting bitch face. He's like kind of the opposite of that like Yeah, he's just like and and I just really enjoy being around him because of that It's like I kind of suck up that energy of like Yay.
Sam: Absolutely. I partner with, um, with a dear friend of mine, Amy Ehlers, who's also happens to be one of the world's great women's leadership coaches. And we do these international retreats for women. We've went to Belize two years in a row. We went to Crete. We're going to Mallorca this year. It's incredible.
And part of the reason I love working with her is not just because she's great at what she does, but because she is a natural born celebrator. She is a natural born enthusiast. She is, you know, I tease her that she's a, you know, she's a thousand watt bulb in a hundred watt world. You know, she just, she can't help it.
And if there's music on, she's dancing. And if there's a compliment to give, she's giving it. And if there's something to appreciate, she's appreciating it. And it really helps. First of all, just improve the quality of the retreats, because she's the one who puts on, remembers to put music on during the breaks.
She's the one who remembers, you know, that we need a little dancing on the tables time, in addition to all the work. Um, but also because it just keeps me so much more grounded and present in the joy that is available to me.
Erick: Yeah, and that's interesting. I, I, I find that, uh, since I'm working for myself and I do so much stuff, You know, here, my, my apartment and all of these things that I have to make sure that I go out at least a couple of times a week and just hang out with people. Because as soon as I do that, I feel my whole mood just lift because I, because I am that extrovert and my, I think
Sam: We're tribal animals. I mean, we're designed to be this way. We're designed to live in a group. I think it's, you know, most mammals, as big as we are, live in small family units with lots and lots of space in between.
Right. Yep. Not us.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: We're like, let's live in apartment buildings. Let's live in a city. Let's live all together. Let's get even closer together. Let's cram together on the train. Let's be right next to each other. And you know, it's, it's, it's part of our software. I mean, it's how, how we were designed to be this way when people are like, Oh, I'm such a people pleaser. I'm like, yeah, on purpose. Because the good opinion of other people is how you stay alive.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: We cannot survive alone. Our animal brain knows it. Our practical brain knows it. We need other people. Everything comes to us through other people. God comes to us through other people. Money comes to us through other people.
Love and success comes to us through other people. Everything comes through other people. So and our connections to other people is, is everything. It's everything. The quality of relationships is the quality of your life. End of story. So to make sure that. You are around people who get you, who celebrate you, who laugh at your jokes, who tell you you look cute even when you know you don't. Like, that is a high quality life.
Erick: Yeah, and that's something that I'm building and I have to remind myself to not get too focused on what I, you know, my career goals, because that's that takes up so much time and energy. And some of that is that fear of running out of my savings, you know, like, oh, I have to get this going.
And then I remind myself, I'm like, I can do this for a few years. I don't want to dip that far into it, but you'll be okay. And I just have to. For you, you can do this and go out and hang out with people and and do those kind of things.
Sam: And I mean, again, you know, people say, Oh, Sam, does a 15 minute a day thing really work?
And I'm like, yes, or I wouldn't have written a book about it. Not trying to trick you. Yes, the 15 minute a day thing works. And partly because it it continues to focus your attention on the things that you love and that light you up. but also because it gives you something to talk about with other people.
Erick: Yeah. Uh,
Sam: and then when you're talking about somebody else, it's amazing how often they go, Oh, well, my sister's a literary agent. Did you want me to, or, Oh, my brother raises Burmese mountain dogs. Did you want me to, you know, or whatever, like he said, the more you're in it, the more you're doing it. And then, and this is, this is my plan for world domination. Are you ready?
Erick: Yes.
Sam: Here it is. Um, so I've never had a job in corporate America. I've been a whitewater river guide, I've delivered flowers, I was a bartender and a barista, I've done everything, uh, children's party clown, all of it, mime, but okay, um.
Erick: I did that at a, I did that as well, children's party, did a mime.
Sam: Dude! High five!
Erick: Yeah, I went to, I went to state three times in pantomime in high school. And took a superior each time.
Sam: Well done, you!
Erick: Yes, me too. Imagine me doing the whole, yeah. Right,
Sam: Inside a glass box, right?
Erick: Oh yeah, I was really good at that. Sorry to interrupt. No! We had one routine that I did that I, my first year, um, I was like, Oh, I'm going to do humorous interpretation where basically it's, you know, you're almost doing like a standup comedy thing, or you do a scene, it's a solo scene.
And I was like, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. And my drama teacher, Leslie, she was like, no, you're not like, I'm not that's it's what I did last year. And I'm really good at this. And, you know, I just moved up to the school. And she was like, no, you're going to do pantomime. And I'm like, I've never done pantomime.
I'm she's like, you are a natural you. And I was like, are you sure? And so a former student came and he taught me this 1. it was called psycho bathroom and it was just, it was 1 of the most brilliant mime pieces I've ever seen. And I tell people, I'm like, you know, it basically, when I saw Mr Bean. You know, years later, I'm like, that's basically what psycho bathroom was kind of like, like if Mr.
Bean had a bathroom, they started attacking him. There you go. Yeah. Which is why I love Mr. Bean. I could watch that. You know, just, just absolutely brilliant. You know, that's one of the most watched shows in the world. Rowan Atkinson makes, he made more off Mr. Bean than he has off of anything else he's done in his career.
And that was right at the beginning. And he had all the rights because it was just this cheap little show that he and somebodies put together. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: Right? Yes. Build a bonfire. Do your thing. Anyway.
Erick: A little bit of a tangent there, but.
Sam: Well, a little bit of a tangent, but I will also, this is another little thing I like to put in people's, you know, soup, so they think about it.
To all you parents out there, if you have a child who is threatening a career in the performing arts or who is demonstrating an interest in the arts, um, don't panic. It's going to be fine. First of all, the chance that they will actually try and do it professionally is very slim. Um, and everything they learn as they are studying art, and I think particularly the performing arts, just because that's my background, is going to serve them so incredibly well in the Starting with the ability to stand up in front of a room and talk.
Erick: Yes. That's how to do that.
Sam: Right. Which is something so many people can't do an understanding of body language and understanding of timing and understanding of energetic exchange and understanding of, of, of, of emotions and the, and the, the, the subtleties of human emotions, um, language and history and costume and attitude.
And, you know, in the theater, we call it ensemble. I think in corporate, they call it teamwork, you know, uh, yeah. I have a friend who ended up with a big job at Apple and he always said, Oh, I can always tell when somebody's got performance experience, when they come in to interview for a job. He's like, and he thinks it should be mandatory. Like, like two years in the Peace Corps, like you have to spend two years in the performing arts. Not necessarily on stage. You can be in, you know, you can be part of, but I totally agree.
Erick: Yeah. Well, I mean, for me, for example, obviously having been on stage and doing all of that makes it so it's much easier for me to speak on my podcast. You know, that's something that I definitely learned from that. But also because I started out, I was a musical theater kid. And that's what I loved. And so I took voice lessons, which is why my voice sounds the way that it does. Right. And, and you know, yes, there's a lot of it is my natural, natural instrument itself, but I learned how to use my voice to make it sound the way that I wanted to in my everyday speaking and everything.
So my voice sounds the way that it does. And with my podcast, the two most highest compliments that I get, or most compliments I get most often are thank you for your content that has changed my life. Also, I love your voice. I can listen to you read the phone book. It's so soothing. And so just like, it just, you know, and some people like it's very calming.
It's very, you know, so when I'm stressed out, I can listen to one of your episodes and because you're not this hyperactive podcast host who's, you know, you're in there and there it's just nice and chill and I can just relax and go, ah, and you're teaching me something that's really helpful. I'm like, yay.
Yay. I'm glad my tools are helpful. I hear the
Sam: Exact same thing. I've got the, I've done the audio for all three of my books and I have a couple of limited edition podcasts that I've done. And I hear a lot of like, oh, your voice is so warm. It's like, it's like having margaritas with a friend. It's like, I feel it. I'm like, yeah. And again, yes, that's on purpose and, uh, because I'm acting, it's not fake. I'm not faking it, but I can do it because I am an actor. Right.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: Um, so this world domination. So like I said, I've never had a job in corporate America. Um, and I worry because I read the statistic over and over again, that says that 77 percent of employees are disengaged.
And that statistic has stayed pretty steady the last bunch of years. And it terrifies me, because that's a lot of disengagement. I mean, can you imagine if 75 percent of your friends were disengaged?
Erick: Yeah,
Sam: 77 percent of your money disappeared. I mean, that's a lot. So it seems to me that that's a very expensive problem, right?
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: You're paying three quarters of the people to be there and not do anything or not really give a shit about what they're doing. That strikes me as a big problem, but I think I have an almost free and very practical solution.
Erick: Oh, do tell. I need this for my, my teaching.
Sam: Yes. So, um, I want to back up. I want everyone everywhere spending 15 minutes a day, every single day on something that matters to them.
That's the point of my book. That's the thing I say over and over again. Uh, 15 minutes a day, every single day, Before you check your email. On some and whether that's writing, or stretching, or playing ukulele, or tying flies, or raising lizards, or just sitting in the garden with the sun on your face. I don't care.
What I notice is that we're spending all day getting everything done for everybody else. And the things that we know, like we were talking about, would really light us up inside, the things that are part of our zone of genius, the things that, that delight us, give us those little micro moments of pleasure, aren't even making it onto the list.
So that's my overall goal. But especially when it comes to corporate, I think it would be really neat if corporate said, you know what, everybody, between 4.15 and 4.30, that's your 15 minutes. Between 9 45 and 10. That's your 15 minutes. Don't schedule meetings. Don't check your email. Don't make your dentist appointment.
This isn't about your to do list. This is 15 minutes just for you as a person, as a human being to noodle around whatever you want to noodle around with. I think that people would appreciate that of like, oh wait, the people who run this organization have noticed that I am a person? That's cool. So I think that alone would be cool.
I think that, in fact, I have studies that back this up, that if you start a meeting and ask people not just to introduce themselves with their role, but to mention something else about themselves, about who they are as a person, you will have a better meeting. They will be more attentive, they will have better ideas, they will be faster problem solvers, they will be more innovative problem solvers.
Um, and then, you know, a little bit further down the conference table or in the zoom room is, you know, that person over there whom I've never really gotten along with, but they say, Oh, I'm Sam from sales and marketing, and I spent my 50 minutes today, you know, doing Neil point for a baby gift for the baby who's about to graduate high school, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get it done this week, right?
Um, and then, you know, a little bit further down the conference table or in the zoom room is, you know, that person over there whom I've never really gotten along with, but they say, Oh, Hi, I'm so and so from such and such. And, uh, you know, my grandmother was Swedish. And so I'm working on a, on a recipe of hers to see if I can make it a little bit lighter.
Cause frankly, it's kind of a heavy recipe. And I go, wait a minute, my grandmother was Swedish. And now, now, now she's a person to me, you know, or that person's doing cross stitch. Oh my gosh, we're needlework buddies or that person goes water skiing or that person loves gardening or that, like this is now we know each other.
And you know what that is? Engagement.
Erick: Connection.
Sam: People, we are engaged, we are connected, we care about each other, we care about some of the same things, we have some shared values, we can laugh at each other's jokes. And people will do way more for other people than they will do for any kind of paycheck. I don't care who you are.
Erick: True. And by the way, my grandma is Swedish, so.
Sam: See? All the best people are, frankly. I can still hear her voice. Hello, sweetheart.
Erick: Oh, that's great. No, I think that's, that's incredibly true. I, one of my coaching clients, um, he's a software development manager in Victoria, BC, and he was able to take a maternity leave and he's going back this next week and he was a little bit nervous because, you know, he worked really hard to make sure that he could just offload everything to his whole team.
Because his, his boss was like, you are on leave and that's what it means, you are on leave. And he was like, okay. And so as he was, you know, we were, we were discussing and he's like, so I've, I've been able to free up a lot of my time to do a lot of the things that I wanted to do. But I, because I had my fingers in so many pies because it's a small company.
Now they're kind of running without me. So this is an interesting time. I said, let's capitalize on that.
Sam: That's right.
Erick: One of the things that he talked about was he wanted to implement a 15 percent rule, which was 15 percent of your time can go to whatever you want.
Sam: Whatever you want.
Erick: And he was like, but, you know, I'm worried because we kind of tried doing that a few years ago, but you know, we're small and it was, so we'd just get wrapped up in finishing code.
And so we never got around to it. And I said, I said, you have to do that. And he was like, I have to. And I said, yeah, one, it tells your employees it's okay to play. Yeah. It's an investment in your employees, telling them that you trust them. They they're going to do something that it may not be productive for the company now, but you know, they could, they could be playing with some new technology and suddenly go, you know, a couple of months down the line and go, Oh, by the way, I was checking this thing out.
And I think that will solve our problem over here. And you're like, all right, let's do this, which happened to me at a company that I worked for and I later became CTO of. I had seen this demonstration of this thing called Ruby on Rails. It was a new programming environment that came out and he goes, we're going to build a blog in 10 minutes.
And nobody had ever done anything like that before. And he does this demonstration, just does it right there in this front of this crowd and everybody was like, and I looked at how they did their stuff where they got the database into the, into the, you know, pulled out and so the code could work with it.
And it was called an ORM, which is an object relational model, but it's not that important. And so I went into work the next day and I did a little bit of checking with some things. And I told my boss about this, showed him the video and I said, I think I can make that for our code. And I said, can I have a few days just to do that?
And he was just like, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because we were spending, we would, for every time we need to make a database call, we would make a whole bunch of code just for that one call. So I said, let's make it so that we can just have this generic code. We call it and then it just knows because the names of the columns are the exact same as the names that are being expected over here.
So it just fills it and hands it off and he was like, yeah, let's do that. And man, it's, we have this 10,000 line set of code and we dropped down to 300 lines and it stayed at 300 lines for the next few years because once it was written, it was done. And I was like, thank you for letting me play. Thank you for letting me take the time to do this.
Sam: And we know that we have, you know, how many great ideas do you have when you're Out on your boat, doing yoga, taking a walk, playing with the dog, like, you know, your mind needs a little air and space to, to put things together, you know, to, there's nothing that will shut down creativity faster than say, be creative, just play with it, just have fun, just, just think of anything,
Erick: Creativity, on demand,
Sam: Just go, just think of something amazing right now, like, there's nothing, there's few things that will make even, Hyper creative people shut down faster than that.
So yes, to give people a little air and space to around around in their mind in their lives. And also, you know, there's this beautiful spillovers tech, you know, people are like, really, this 15 minutes a day really make a difference. It's shocking how much you can get done in 15 minutes. And it's shocking how much you can get done in 15 minutes every day for.
A week, a month, a year, six years, sixty years. Um, I offer a thing called the Daily Practicum. It's a subscription thing. People buy it. And, uh, every day, every weekday at twelve noon, eastern time, Uh, we, everybody comes on, we say hello, I set the timer for fifteen minutes. It goes off. 15 minutes later, people lift their heads up.
And I swear, Erick, they have this, like, post orgasmic glow. They're like, I did it! I did the thing! You know? I, I sorted through this much of my closet! You know? I I, I reached out to that, I called that person and I've been putting off calling for six weeks and it was easy and they were really glad to hear from me.
You know, I, I wrote a note to my friend who just lost her mom and I didn't know what to say, but I did it, you know, and like these little things, not just feel good in the moment to do them, not just have a, a, a, a, what do you call that when a little bits of things add up to something bigger than themselves, exponential, uh, results. Um, but then there's this sort of spillover, like, and I don't know what to call it. It's like positive smugness or something. Like it's, you know, it's like when you work out in the morning or when you just first have a crush on somebody and you're just sort of walking around all day like, that's right.
I'm amazing. How are you? And that, you know, we love that version of you, right? People are like, oh, I couldn't take time for myself. That would be selfish. No. What is selfish is you walking around exhausted and stressed out and with no sense of humor, and the rest of us have to deal with you like that. That is selfish.
You show up creatively fulfilled or stimulated. You show up having crossed, you know, moved forward on something that matters to you. You show up engaged with yourself. That's all. You're less reactive. You're a better listener. We love this version of you. Please. That is the ultimate generosity is for you to show up as that person and at work for your children, for your families, for your communities, for your faith community, whoever it is, all of these people will be so grateful if you take the 15 minutes to keep your flame lit.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I can agree with that. The taking care of yourself and so that you can be firing on cylinders is probably the best gift that you can give. I know for me, for example, I had, um, I think it was about a year and a half ago. I had a spell for about three months where I had this terrible insomnia.
Just because there was a lot of stress going on. And I was, if I slept five hours, that was a long night. And it was like, or it's, you know, like I said, almost three months, finally I got some, some sleep meds that knocked me out and I was sleeping like eight, nine hours for like months afterwards. And I was like, and I, it's, I recognize that that lack of sleep, which is definitely detrimental to my last long term relationship. Even though we had broken up by that point, we're still in this weird in between phase. We're still living in the same house. But I was a grumpy bastard because I was so tired. And I would try not to, but man, when you're that tired, you just feel on edge all the time.
You've, you know, just everything feels prickly. Noises are too much. You just don't have the capability to be even close to your best. So…
Sam: I think that,
Erick: yeah, I can agree with that. Again, one
Sam: of the wonderful things about the 15 minutes, because I myself, as you know, have had long haul COVID for the last two and a half years.
Erick: Yeah, tell me more about that.
Sam: Yeah, so there's lots of days where, you know, not only can I not get out of bed, but rolling over in bed seems ambitious. And, uh, the whole, the, one of the reasons the book is called the 15 minute method is because that book was, a lot of that book was written in 15 minute increments.
Yeah. Because I just couldn't do more than that. And I think it's easy to make the mistake of like, Oh, well, I'm having this health crisis, or my beloved is having a health crisis, or I'm having this financial crisis, or this, you know, like, I can't take time. I can't do this now, Sam. I have to be, you know, I have to be, take care of these other things.
And I want to turn that on its head. I'm gonna say, no, no, no. This is where it's even more important for you to spend 15 minutes a day on something that matters to you. And again, even if it's just doodling or sitting out in the garden, whatever it is. Because you can't, you can't take an already stressful situation and then remove your life force from it and expect to go, expect for it to go better.
Erick: Yeah. Well, it, it, basically it was kind of like, I think it was, I want to say it was in Viktor Frankl's book, I could be misremembering it, but he talked about the people who took time in the concentration camps who practiced gratitude, to enjoy a sunset, to hug somebody, to do something like that. They had a much better chance of survival and were more mentally healthy because they took time to appreciate something beautiful in this absolutely horrible place.
Sam: Right. I worry too. I worry about, um, cell phone usage, not in the same way that I think that other people do.
Erick: Mm hmm.
Sam: I worry about it because I notice it depriving us of these little moments of contact and communication with each other.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: The conversations I have in line at the grocery store, the conversations I have with the, where I live, we've got full service gasoline stations. We don't have, we didn't have those where I lived before.
So I'm like, really, you're just going to fill up the tank for me. That's amazing. Thank you. But even those little conversations, you know, the little exchanges that, you know, we used to meet people sitting on an airplane. We used to meet people in the dentist waiting area of the dentist office. We used to meet people chopping, you know, and now we kind of don't.
Erick: Yeah, yeah, I see that when I ride the metro into town. Um, everybody's on their phone.
Sam: Everybody's got their head down on their phone.
Erick: But I've met people randomly. I, and I do, I, I'm one of those people who talk to people, my neighbor on the airplane and I've made friends that way. Um, but, and, but I generally tend to, when I can, talk to somebody next to me or make a joke or something like that and get to know them.
And, uh, but I've kind of, I've noticed that I've kind of fallen into that habit of not nearly as much. I'm not usually on my phone. Sometimes I am because I was in the middle of reading an interesting article and I'm like, Oh, I got to get out of here and go. And so I will read it then, but I usually like to just put my AirPods in and listen to music and watch the scenery as it goes by and appreciate that and do people watching.
It's always a lot of, but I do find that I'm, I'm become, I've kind of adopted the, the culture around me of everybody's on their phone and not paying attention to anybody else.
Sam: Of course, because again, you know, human emotion is contagious. It's just, we're going to do what we see everybody else doing. We can't help it. I mean, when the pandemic hit and everybody was, you know, buying pallets of toilet paper and everybody's like, why is everybody doing that? Well, they're doing it because everybody's doing it.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: It's almost impossible for us not to do what everybody else is doing. And so, yeah, and, and sometimes people are like, well, I don't know what I would do. Great. So take 15 minutes and stare at a blank piece of paper. 15 minutes of enforced boredom never hurt a person.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: And when was the last time you sat for 15 minutes without reaching for your phone? I'm going to guess it's been a minute.
Erick: I'd have to think about that, but I do, I do try at times to make myself bored and, um, and. Allow myself to be that, which is one of the reasons why I like it's like biking around here because I can't be reading something. I have to be right. So
Sam: Have to be present, have to be awake
Erick: I put air pods in and then I just ride around and some listening to music and my brain is thinking and, and that's part of the reason why I enjoy cycling so much.
Like, I actually, you know, I have a racing bike back in the States, which I'm going to get shipped over here. Um, and I used to hit 40, 50 miles on, on a ride easy after my divorce back in 2005. That was my that was my escape. That was my recovery. It was just out riding and because the only thing I could focus on was riding.
And so my mind would wander, and it was processing all kinds of stuff, and it was just. I couldn't help it. It just had to wander because I was out there riding. And then sometimes I would focus in on very clearly where I was and other times my brain would be wandering out there, but just being and doing something repetitive and where the, the only things I could do was either focus on riding or look around me and that was it. So…
Sam: I think it's one of the reasons why we all have such great ideas in the shower is because it's one of the only times when our hands are busy. You know, so we're sort of, as you say, your hands and feet are busy, you're kind of, you know, doing something by rote, you know, without having to think about it, and your brain is a little quiet. I think also the water is nice, you know, the sound of the water.
Erick: And it's comfortable and warm, yeah.
Sam: Comfortable and warm, I love it. Or cold, I also love a cold shower. Um, I love all water in any circumstance, really. If there's a body of water, I'm getting in it. Um, and even a shower feels great. And then, you know, so we have, you know, so we're doing the shower thing and all of a sudden your brain's like, Oh, by the way, here's the answer to the question you've been asking.
Oh, by the way, here's what to get your sister for Christmas. Oh, by the way, here's the, how to solve that problem in your writing issue. You're like, wow, this is so great. Right. Cause you finally shut up long enough for your brand to be like, Oh, knock, knock, knock. Here you go. You know, your brain is this amazing problem solving machine. You put in a nickel, you got out a gumball almost every time. But you gotta quiet down for a sec. You know, you've got to give it a little bit of, of space. Um,
Erick: Yeah, I think it was Nietzsche said there isn't a problem that can't be solved by a walk.
Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Or Isaac Denison who says the cure for everything is saltwater, sweat, tears, or the sea.
She was Danish, which almost counts as Swedish. But, uh, yeah. And in terms of, of, of stoicism, the 15 minute thing, um, You know, it really does help you get less precious with your own self with your own work with whatever it is that you're spending your 15 minutes on like, it's 15 minutes, how perfect is it going to be? And you're going to do it again tomorrow.
So, you know, um, and I often have people ask me about writing and you know, how do you, you know, how do you deal with the feeling when you feel like your writing is not very good? I'm like, Oh, well, that's just a permanent condition. I mean, you just always feel like your writing's not that good. Yes. Please don't wait for that to go away.
Like you have a long wait if that's what you're waiting for. Um, but what I do do is I will look at a piece and go. And the voice in my head is going, This is terrible. No one cares about this. Who do you think you are? I'm like, Right, right, right. Thank you. Luckily, I've been at this long enough to not believe everything I think.
So I'm like, Okay, great. Thank you, voice. Uh, trying to keep me safe. Appreciate you. But then the other voice says, Do I know how to make this better right now?
Do I know how to make this paragraph better, this page better, right now? And again, and then I wait for a second, and don't rush to judgment on it. Just do I, do I know how to make this better right now? Because sometimes the answer is, yes, I do. I can take out these extra words, I can find all the sentences that start with, it is, or that was, you know, I can remove all the adverbs and adjectives.
I can, you know, I can definitely take out all the exclamation points, especially in emails. No, no, if your sentence is not strong enough without an exclamation point, then your sentence is not strong enough. Take it away. Right? So I think I can make it funnier. I can make it punchy or I can do whatever it is I can do.
Other times I'm looking at it and I go, you know what? I don't know how to make this better right now. I'm sure it needs to be made better, but I don't know how to do it right now. Therefore I will move on. Right. And that patience, I think it's one of the, um, most important things that I've taken from stoicism is that Yeah, that patience, that willing to be a willingness to be a good parent to myself.
You know, to say like, yes, of course you are striving for excellence. And of course you want this to be as good as it can be. And we're going to give ourselves a little grace. We're going to make sure that we have a snack. We're not going to try and do this on an empty stomach or when we're already upset, you know, like let's, let's, And let's involve other people. This is why God made editors, right? So,
Erick: so do you think that kind of going back to our phone conversation? Do you think that social media and I, most people on their phones because they're on social media. There's some people reading books and stuff like that, which I've seen, but that has caused us to be less patient.
Sam: I don't know. Um, social media caused us to be less patient. It certainly caused us to be less patient with the possibility of boredom. You know? I mean, we do have that, like, oh, I'm waiting for the bus for three seconds. I'll reach for my phone!
Erick: Um, but I think, I think for me, sometimes as I've been working on, you know, switching over to coaching and, and moving that direction that when an advertisement or something that comes up, or somebody who's talking about I'm a coach and I do this and I do that, and I may, you know, 50 K per month and all of these things, there's that part of me, which is like, I'm not making that much and so I, I, I, I feel like I must be doing something wrong because I'm not there yet and I've been working at this for the last four or five months trying to get, get that. So I wonder if…
Sam: I can't wait for you to listen back to this episode in like 10 or 15 years being like, I've been at it four or five months and I felt like I wasn't doing enough. Cause really. You barely started and you're doing incredibly well. Um, I think most of us don't know how well we're doing while we're doing it, right?
Uh, yeah, I mean, so again, in terms of who we are as human beings, as human animals, we're slightly negatively programmed, right? It is more important for us to remember the one berry that made us sick than it is to remember the 99 delicious berries. This is why when you do something and 99 people tell you, it's amazing.
And one person says one thing that's a little bit critical and that's all you hear. That's not a character defect. That's not low self esteem that survival, right? We need to hear that criticism more than we need to hear the things that are generally approved of. Um, so marketing and advertising got ahold of this really early on in the development of communities. And culture to say, well, clearly there's something wrong with you, therefore you must buy the shampoo or drive this car or subscribe to this thing or dress this way or do this thing so that you will be less offensive to the rest of the world.
And we all go, okay, because I don't want to offend the rest of the world. I want to be, I want to be good. I want to be accepted. I don't want to smell or have yellow teeth or, you know, be all the things that they're telling me I'm about to be. Um, and so I don't know if it's made us less patient, but it's certainly, uh, uh, amplified spotlight syndrome.
You know, this, this, this psychological phenomena where we believe that other people are really paying attention to us and, and how we are. And if we mess up, oh boy, they're really taking note of that. And I'm here to tell you, no, most people are not noticing you at all.
Erick: Yeah, they're too busy in their own heads to worry about you.
Sam: Way too busy in their own heads, and if you do screw up, they're probably not noticing. And, if they do notice, and they take time to tell you, that's the best possible news. I'm always so flattered when people write me and say, like, Sam, you misspelled this, or I don't think this was right, or I really took exception to what you said here, and I'm like, Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to write and for giving a shit. That's amazing. And you can 100 percent disagree with me and I'm so grateful.
Erick: Well, they also, what that means, what that tells me is that they see you as somebody who can take criticism, that you have the capacity to be able to hear something negative and be like, okay.
Sam: Absolutely. Uh, yeah. And most often I, I agree. I'm like, yes, I agree. That really should have been better. Yes. I would have, yes, I noticed that too. Um,
Erick: There's nothing worse than somebody who coddles you because they don't think that you're strong enough to be able to take criticism.
Sam: Right? That would be really embarrassing.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: Yeah. I think I would hate that a lot more than I hate, and I hate being criticized. I'm very sensitive to criticism. I'm a fool for verbal praise. I love compliments. I don't like criticism, but I definitely would prefer criticism to indifference or to, yeah, to coddling, to like, That's your flattery, your heart kind of thing.
Erick: I remember the first time I heard that when Brené Brown explained, bless your heart, I laughed my ass off. I was like, yes, thank you. That's now that makes sense. Oh, bless your heart. I was like, Oh, it feels wrong with that. And then she explained it. I was like, Oh, that's what's wrong with the code. It's a code.
Yeah, that passive aggressiveness. Um, so, we've talked about quite a few things on here. Is there anything that you feel like we should hit that we might have missed so far?
Sam: The whole reason I do my work is because we're going to die. Everyone has work that only they can do. Songs that only they can sing. Words that only they can put together. Relationships that only they can have. And we do not know how long we have to do this work. I'm always, um, fascinated and horrified by those stories of like, plane crashes on person's house, you know?
Like they are in bed, asleep, and a plane crashes on their house. And they are now dead and gone, having fallen asleep thinking, Oh god, I gotta remember to get eggs tomorrow. And then there is no tomorrow. Like, in Chicago every year someone is killed by a falling icicle. Like, these things These things stay with me.
I think about these things a lot. Um, and so I just really want to encourage everyone that stop waiting for a good time. Stop waiting for a good idea. There's no such thing as a good idea. There's just ideas. We don't know if they're good until later. Right? Yeah. Do that thing that lights you up. We've all seen that study over and over again of the hospice patients who say, I wish I had spent less of my life doing things that I thought would make other people happy and spent more of my life doing things that made me happy.
that had satisfaction or meaning to me. So that to me is one of my other favorite parts of stoicism is that it makes a very big deal about like, Oh, you are so totally dying. And you should think about that a lot.
Erick: Yeah.
Sam: And does this matter in the scheme of, you know, and when you're, you know, you're haunting your own memorial service, what do you want people saying?
Well, he really followed every rule. Well, she was incredibly well behaved. Is tile grout? Nuh. Impeccable. No! That's not what you want them to say. You want them to say, That person got every drop of juice out of that orange. That person tried. That person enjoyed every sandwich. The immortal words of Roran Zivan, Enjoy every sandwich.
Erick: Yeah, no, that's very true. And I know a lot of people when they, you know, contact me, well, you know, they find out about stoicism. That's my podcast or like, but isn't this, I mean, this whole thing about remember death. I mean, that's so depressing and it's like, no, it's, it reminds me of this cartoon that I, I found, um, and I sent it to my kids cause I thought it was brilliant and it was two frames and they, they look like almost the exact same thing, except in one, the expression is really sad.
And it says, nobody gives a shit. And they're just really upset about that. Then underneath it, it's like, wait, nobody gives a shit. And memento mori or it's the same way. It's like, man, we're going to die. Hey, we're going to die. So, so what I do, isn't that important because I could die right now. So nothing I do is that important. I'm going to die. So nothing I do is all that important.
Sam: So I might as well do what's in front of me. I might as well do something delightful. I might as well do something. Something. Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I didn't get the memo that death is supposed to be depressing. First of all, it's 100 percent inevitable.
So how, how could it, how could it be anything other than just what it is? Um, also everyone who's been says it's great, right? Isn't that every story? People are like, I was dead for 20 minutes and it was amazing. Like, awesome. Yeah. The other story I sometimes tell is like, I'm like, well, remember what it was like before you were born?
I think it's probably a lot like that.
Erick: Yeah. I think it was Chryssiphus who actually basically said that. It's like, you didn't know anything before you were dead, before you were alive. So why would you be worried about after you're not? It's the same thing.
Sam: Um, you know, there's the Bill Moyers interview with Joseph Campbell, which is just, again, an epic piece of television to this day. And Bill Moyers asks, Campbell, something about, I don't know, something about heaven or what he believes heaven is or something. And I should look this up because I've been thinking about this quote, but he says something like, I think we will all just be too, what does he say, like mesmerized by the face of God to even care, you know?
And I just love that idea of, of all of us and our little squabbles and our little hurts and our little peccadilloes and our big peccadilloes. And, uh, and then eventually we all just get to the same place and go, Oh, this is,
Erick: Yeah, I still don't know how I feel about death as far as I, I've definitely lost my fear of it that I used to have, um, hit 40 and I remember looking in the mirror one time and going, Oh, geez, I'm getting old. And it was just like, For months afterwards, I kind of had this like anxiety of like, I'm going to die. And I haven't thought about this. Ooh, crap. And I'm not, I don't believe in God anymore. So, Oh crap. You know, and I still don't know what's afterwards.
I mean, the universe is a very strange place. The more I go in, I love watching physics videos and, you know, and astrophysics and stuff like that. And it's just quantum physics, all of these kinds of things. And it just talking about a four dimensional, eight dimensional structures and all this crazy stuff. And I'm like. The universe is a weird place, so I'm pretty sure there's something after we die.
I just don't know what it is.
Sam: Well, and to clarify, I realized I did use the word God earlier, and you have to know I don't perceive God as a moral force. I don't. I mean, there's sort of the character of God that I make jokes about. My life I used to discuss my life. Um, but, uh, it's one of, I think that's one of the reasons why I think spending time in nature is so profoundly restorative is because of the deep indifference of nature.
Like nature does not care. Doesn't care if you live, doesn't care if you die, doesn't care if you appreciate her, doesn't, doesn't care if you get buried in a landslide or eaten by a mountain lion, does not care. Don't turn your back on the ocean. The ocean will eat you for lunch. I love that. I find that so relaxing.
When my first book came out, and I was freaking out. Book launch is a freaky, freaky time. Uh, my family came. I was living in California. So what do you do when the family comes and you live in California? Whale watching. So we go out whale watching, and uh, beautiful day on the water, like I said I love water, I love being on the water, that alone was good.
And then sure enough, there were whales! And the minute that first whale broke the surface I was like, oh right. I am a speck on a speck on a speck on a speck. This planet is almost 80 percent water, it's not really our planet, it's theirs! And they don't even know we exist. We're like those weird things up on the dry part.
Um, and it was so relaxing and restful to me. And all of a sudden, all my worries about all the things that I should have done to prep for the launch that should have been done yesterday, that should have been done three weeks ago, that should have been done three years ago. What were people going to say? Was it going to sell well? What if everybody liked it as much as Seth Godin liked it? Holy shit! Right? My ego was freaking out and then I saw the whale and I was like, Oh, right. It's fine. No one, no one cares.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah.
Sam: Very common.
Erick: Yeah, I can imagine. I got to see the whales at the Cape Cod one time when I was young. Yeah, that's, it's, it's an amazing experience because, you know, you're like, Here are these what I think they're like 80 ton creatures or whatever they are flying out of the water and you're just like, wow, I feel tiny.
Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're so big. And again, so calm. And so speaking of Isaac Dennison, she has a great bit in a short story she wrote. It might be called the Pearl Diver. I can't remember. Uh, but part of the story is this Pearl Diver who can speak to the, to the fish. Um, and the fish say, Oh, we, we, the marine life are God's chosen people. The flood was for us. Why? Because fish can't fall. Marine life is always in perfect harmony with its environment.
See, you read stuff like that and you're like, okay, now I have to quit writing because that is just too good.
Erick: Yeah,
Sam: I'll never be able to write something that, go ahead, .
Erick: I know there are times when I'll, when I'll, you know, I have, I have ideas for like sci-fi books all the time. And then, you know, but then I'll, I'll see something or a show or, or read some kind of book and it's so brilliantly done and I'm just like, I couldn't ever get my mind to come up with something that good. And I feel, I feel intimidated by it, but then I'm just like, that's okay. I'm glad that somebody wrote that. Because I get to experience that and that's
Sam: right and find your genre, you know, I remember spending about 15 minutes a day. I spent a couple months one time trying to write a screenplay. It was actually a television for a TV movie and I was working for some producers who that's what they did.
And I thought, well, this I could do this. Okay, turns out. No, I can't. Like it is not. I have no gift for plot. Character, yes. Dialogue, absolutely. Plot, no. So I was like, I'm sitting there at my computer like, So they meet in the elevator where they, In a meadow, there's a, no, uh, Dressed up like a clown, they, no.
Like, I just couldn't get it. And finally, after a couple months of that, I was like, Okay, you know what? Good experiment. Not my bag. Now I can just love and appreciate everybody else's screenplays, and Anytime somebody says, you should write a screenplay, I can say, no, thank you. I'll help you with the characters and the dialogue. I can help you with the format, but I, but you have to come up with a story. Cause that's not my, that's not my thing.
Erick: Yeah. I actually did write a screenplay, uh, about 20 years ago. Yeah. I think, uh, it was living in Minnesota. I submitted it to trigger street. So, and I got some positive feedback on it. It was about, um, it was set in Croatia.
Yeah. Well, in, in Duluth, Minnesota and Croatia. No, I'm sorry, Vancouver, Vancouver, B. C. and Croatia. And it was basically about, uh, just a family and, and dealing with the past of the Yugoslav war because I lived in Austria when that was going on. So, and I've written poetry and my own poetry and there's stuff like that. And one of the compliments I got was the poetry in this is beautiful and I was like, thank you.
Sam: Thank you. I tell you, I, this is hilarious to me. All three of my books have poetry in them. I never asked anyone's permission. No one ever said anything about it to me. Um, like people almost never mentioned it.
And it's just there because I think that. Books should have poetry. I don't know. I just, it just seemed like a good idea. There's so much that like, stuff like that, that where like, I've succeeded because I didn't know it was supposed to be hard. Or because it just made sense to me, so I just did it that way.
And then people are like, what? How did you think of that? How'd you do that? I'm like, I don't know. It just seemed like the way it should be.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. I think that we overcomplicate things.
Sam: Oh, well, you certainly you and I do. I don't know about everybody else.
Erick: We start overcomplicating it because we started going, well, it needs to have this, it needs to have that. It needs to have all of these things. And pretty soon we've added on to, you know, and so it's like, oh, well, before I can do my business, I have to do this, and then I have to get a webpage, then I have to get email service.
Then I have to do that. And then pretty soon you're just like, it's just so much work. I don't even want to get started because that's just so much to do. Whereas if you go, well, what … What's, yeah, go ahead.
Sam: But this is exactly the 15 minute thing. Right, exactly. You start making that big, long list and then that feeling of being tired before you even start.
That's a good sign that you are on the wrong track. Right? So, what is the heart of the thing? Like, how can we test this? How can we, minimum viable product, how can we just get it out into the air? Because you are a terrible judge of your own work, particularly while it is still inside of your head. And even once it's out, you're still not that great of a judge of your own work.
It's not your job to judge your work. It's your job to be the vessel for your work, to be the channel for your work. It's your, it's your job to have it come through you. Not your job to manhandle it to pieces until it's nothing. Right. So
Erick: I like that. I like that.
Huh. I hadn't thought of, of kind of approaching it that way, but I think that would be useful for a lot of people if they could just recognize, put it out there. Everybody else is going to judge it. So you don't need to.
Sam: Exactly. And you may have noticed that some of the stuff you put out there that you think, oh, this is embarrassing and everybody's going crazy cuckoo nutcakes for it.
Like they love it. And then there's other stuff where you're like, okay, this is really special. This is really going to kill it. This is going to be great. It's like crickets. No one cares. It happens all the time. I guarantee the thing that is going to be the biggest hit for you is the thing that you think, really, that, that's the thing?
That's the thing? That thing with the dog? That's the thing that everybody loves? Yep. That's the thing that everybody loves.
Erick: Yeah. And I've, I've done that with, with some episodes where I've just been like, Oh, you know, just kind of threw it out there. I didn't think it was going to be all that, that big of a thing, but then people are like, Oh my God, this is brilliant. And I'm like, Oh, cool. Then I'll work really hard on another one. And it'd be like, Yeah. Okay. Like what? This was great. And they're like, yeah, it's all right.
Sam: Yeah. It's one of the, um, very few biomarkers I've found, um, for high creativity is, um, that those of us who are highly creative people, uh, it's not so much that we're more right brained or more left brained.
I'm not entirely convinced that that was ever really a thing to begin with. Interesting construct, helpful, helpful construct. I don't know that it's actually a thing. Um, But, uh, highly creative people make more connections between more things more often. So, uh, we'll put together unusual concepts, we'll find parallels and patterns and things that other people won't necessarily.
And it's beautiful. We love nuance and subtlety and gray area, like, oh, we will get into that and we will over complicate a fucking paper bag. It's ridiculous. So, you need to let yourself have both. Like, there are the time and place to really get granular and there's the, and to really let your mind make all the connections, and then there's times to just Yeah, fine.
I'll just get it out the door. Let everybody else worry about it.
Erick: Yeah. No, very true. All right. So we've been talking here for almost two hours.
Sam: Maybe next time. They can't all be winners, you know,
Erick: I think it was great. Um, I. I really enjoy our conversations because they're always so funny and meandering all over the place, which is fine because I think that, um, as I'm working through and learning how to be a better interviewer, sometimes I, I, you know, I'll write down a whole bunch of questions.
Others, I like to kind of keep very loose and see where they go and trying to find my style and what works with that and be better about asking questions, which I'm not always great at. And that's something that I'm working on. So, but what I appreciate about with you is that you're able to take, I just kind of can leave things and you pick up and run with it.
Um, again, part of the whole creative, creative mind, which, so for me, this has been, this has been a lot of fun. And like I said, I always enjoy our conversations. So
Sam: I'm so pleased and flattered you invited me. Thank you so much, Erick.
Erick: Oh, yeah. So before you go, make sure that you tell people where they can find you online and, uh, and what you're about.
Sam: Yeah. So you can find me at therealsambennett.com and I'm on all the socials as therealsambennett Um, you know, my team keeps threatening to make the fakeSamBennett. Which is going to be me just like with a scotch and a cigarette going, don't do anything. No one cares.
Erick: You should. You should set up a parody account.
Sam: Yeah, exactly.
Erick: Yeah, and just have it just like, just all these, like, just, it's just like a fail blog thing of just things like, don't even try because this is going to, what's going to happen, you know, and just Over the top ridiculous.
Sam: We're doomed. You're 100 percent doomed.
Yeah, you are weird. You are weird. You're super weird. Everyone's talking about it. It's
Erick: like, here's your weirdo meter. You just broke it.
Sam: That's right. Oh yeah. No, people don't like you. It's true. That would be funny. Uh, yeah, no, so it's therealsambennett.com. on the socials at theRealSamBennett, and the new book is called The 15 Minute Method, the Surprisingly Simple Art of Getting It Done.
Erick: All right. Well, thank you so much for your time, Sam. And we're going to jump off here. So thanks again for joining me on this Stoic Coffee Break podcast. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening. And if you aren't following me on social media, I would appreciate if you would, you can find me on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee or all of the others, including Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok. I think those are all the ones I'm on at stoiccoffee, all one word. Thanks again for listening.
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