Transcript:
Part of the appeal of Stoicism, at least for me, is that it offers a framework for how to think, deal with challenges, and live a virtuous life. I got to sit down and talk with Michael Lukich, the author of The Stoic Systems Thinker about the intersection of Stoicism and Systems Thinking. Enjoy!
Erick: Hello, friends. My name is Erick Cloward, and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of stoicism and do my best to break them down to their most important points. So this week on our podcast, we have Michael Lukich. I hope I'm pronouncing that last name correctly.
Michael Lukich: Uh, Lukich, close
Erick: Lukich, okay. it, I… My German brain kicks in, and the I-C-H in German is ich, so, but, uh, Michael is the author of "The Stoic Systems Thinker." So I got a copy of it this week, and really been enjoying it. I've gotten about 100 pages in, and what we're gonna talk about today is basically systems thinking and stoicism and where they overlap and how you can take some of these ideas and apply them in your daily life.
So let's go ahead and get started. So welcome, Michael, to the podcast. Um, if you want, you can go ahead and introduce yourself to my listeners. Uh, tell them a little bit more about you and kind of your journey and what inspired you to actually write this book.
Michael Lukich: Yeah, thanks. Uh, and, and thanks for, again, for, for having me on, Erick. Um, so, uh, yeah, uh, my, my name is Michael Lukichh. I, uh, am a, uh, I guess I, I'd like to say I'm, I, I'm, I've been a systems thinker, uh, longer than I, you know, actually even knew what it was. Um, I've, uh, uh, I, I've spent about 20, 25 years, uh, professionally working in, in marketing data and marketing technology.
Uh, you know, have a- an education in engineering and, and worked at, at a variety of consultancies. So, uh, been ingrained with, uh, you know, things like frameworks and, and structure and, and, and looking at, uh, you know, the problems of, of the world, uh, through different lenses o- o- of systems, uh, throughout my entire life.
Um, you know, also along the way, and kind of, um, I'll, you'll probably g- come back to some of these stories, uh, because I write about them throughout the book. But, um, you know, a- you know, outside of my adult life, I've, I've moonlighted for about the past 25 years as, uh, um, a, a part-time poker player, uh, and a student of the game, which, uh, you know, has, has its own set of, of lessons that I've learned that are, are very stoic in nature, things like variance and, and, and probability and, and the limits of our control.
Um, uh, but, uh, you know, I, uh, I, I ca- I have been that systems thinker my entire life. I, I came into, uh, stoicism, uh, about four years ago or so now, and, uh, had an entry point through, uh, um, uh, the popular Ryan Holiday books and then, you know, kind of made my way, uh, through there to, you know, some of the, uh, you know, um, uh, original texts, uh, you know, going straight to, to Meditations and then making my way through Epictetus and Seneca and others.
Um, and, uh, i- in terms of, uh, you know, like what, what came about and, and how I wanted to write this book, I, I– Writing a book was always something that was, was on my, my bucket list, right? So it was always something that I, I'd really always wanted to get around to doing. And, um, as I was, was, was reading a, a lot about the Stoics, one of the things that just kept clicking to me was a lot of the ideas and, and, and concepts that they were talking about, uh, it had a systems lens to it, at least in, you know, the way I, the way I was reading it.
And, um, uh, you know, a l- I, I could see a lot of the same concepts that I had, had formalized through, through some of, uh, you know, my systems thinking education. Um, I c- I could see, you know, tidbits of things in, in, in writings of Marcus Aurelius and writings of Seneca, and, uh, I, I wanted to explore that more.
And as I continued exploring that, uh, and, and started diving deeper and it, it, it turned into a larger project, which ultimately turned into, you know, me trying to, uh, tackle everything and, and organize it into a book. And, uh, I, I… You know, it started off wr- as, uh, writing a few essays here, and then I started combining those together, and I spent, uh, about 18 months really just, you know, obsessed o- over, over these ideas and, um, you know, ultimately published my book in, in June.
So
Erick: Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, similar kind of trajectory for me. Didn't really know what stoicism was until about 10 years ago, and then it was like, "Oh, this is an amazing thing." And, and seeing how it, uh, you know, it… Because it's such a practical philosophy, that it really changed the way that I viewed the world, and like you said, was very much a lens on things. I guess, uh, first off, for our listeners, I mean, obviously most of them, if they're listening to this podcast, if they're regular listeners, they're familiar with stoicism, but they may not be familiar with systems thinking. So can you give us a, a breakdown on what, uh, what that is and why it's important?
Michael Lukich: Yeah. Um, so systems thinking is– I, I think of systems thinking as, as a way of, of organizing structure. Uh, but, but really systems thinking is a way of, of, um, looking at reality or looking at the complexity of the world, uh, as a, a set of interconnected, uh, interconnected systems and interconnected parts. So it's, it's kind of saying th- that everything is, is interconnected, right?
So th-that, you know, everything had… There are relationships between all of the individual parts of the world, and those relationships, when they are combined together, make up, uh, make up a variety of, uh, of systems in the world. Um, most of us, uh… So, uh, and I make this argument pretty early on in the book, which is, uh, most of us intuitively are systems thinkers, right?
We, we think about, you know, the world of, of, uh, you know, we do A and it, uh, leads to B, and that leads to C, and, and so on and so forth. Um, but a lot of us weren't necessarily formally trained in, in, in some of these, uh, in some of these ideas. So, you know, while we might intuitively get some of these ideas, we, we don't necessarily apply them consistently to a lot of the problems of our, of our world.
Um, a-as we're– But, but in terms of systems thinking in itself, uh, you know, most of us are, are, are trained to analyze problems as we face them in our world, right? So it's, you know, breaking down problems into their smallest pieces. And, and systems thinking says, you know, "That's great, uh, but, but don't stop there," because oftentimes, um, the relat– you know, the, the, the behavior that you're trying to, to analyze comes from the relationship between parts, not just any one individual parts here.
So, um, you know, systems thinking, you know, if we kind of go back, you know, to the history of it, it was, it, it was something that was formalized in the first half of the 20th century. And, you know, there was, uh, something called general systems theory, and it was this radical idea at the time that systems, uh, across biology or engineering or, you know, financial systems, a lot of them had similar patterns, and you could take these, you know, similar broader patterns across things and apply them throughout life.
And, you know, you, uh, you can even start getting into, uh, extending them to domains of our personal lives, right? The, the various, uh, you know, systems of, of our, of our, uh, day-to-day lives or our professions or, or, you know, what we're doing in work. And, you know, these same patterns appear over and over again across all of these different domains, and what we can do is we can map, map out these systems and try to identify where we can have the most impact to, uh, and where we don't necessarily, uh, where we can't necessarily control to, you know, ultimately, you know, try to design better lives to, uh, you know, meet the goals that we wanna meet
Erick: Okay. So was there… part of my question is, in doing this, did you find that there was something missing in stoicism that wasn't enough, and so that's why you bolted the systems lens on? Or was there never motivation for it? secondarily, are there places where you think stir- st- pure stoic philosophy, might fall short without that kind of systems lens?
Michael Lukich: Um, I don't know if there's anything missing in Sto- like, to me, stoicism offered a, a wonderful complement to systems thinking, and that's kind of, uh, you know, I, I, the book itself actually started with, uh, the way I've organized my book is, um, I have, I have three main parts where I kind of dive into the first part, I dive into the fundamentals of systems thinking.
Uh, the second part I'm, I'm more applying, you know, different tools that a systems thinker might use to, uh, find new information in the world, analyze information, interpret it, and, and, and make sense of it. And then the third part I'm looking at just more applications of taking a systems view, uh, in the world.
But in between those three parts, I have two different interludes where I kind of take some pauses along the way, and they're far, far, far more stoic in nature. And to me, that's actually where the book kind of started was, was I actually wrote those two interludes first. And, um, you know, the, the, the first interlude is more around just intellectual humility, um, you know, in the sense of, uh, y- we often, you know, we, we think we know things, right?
We, you know, we kind of, uh, we have that, that Dunning-Kruger effect, right? Where we, uh, where we, we think we know far, far more than we do, especially when we first start doing something. Uh, and you know, that was kind of the stoic, uh, you know, when I kind of started reading more about stoicism, it was one of those the, a, a very humbling experience, right?
I'm starting to, you know, recognize, oh, actually I, I know, I know far, far less than I, than I, um, uh, than I do, and that's actually a good thing, right? That's actually when you start realizing, uh, you're further along the path to wisdom is when you kind of recognize, uh, what it is that you don't know, right?
And you're kind of, you know, Socrates was one of the first to, to really start, um, you know, diving into that particular, um, um, you know, just, uh, conundrum there. But then, then, then the second, uh, interlude is all around the limits of control, right? And I kind of I, I, I get to this part where it's like we have all of these tools, and we think, um, a- uh, we, we design our systems, we have all of these tools, and we have this mentality of, "Okay, I've mapped everything out, and I've, uh, I know what, how this whole system works.
I should be able to control everything." And the reality is, is that you can control your inputs. You can't control necessarily what happens, and oftentimes you have no control over those outputs. And, you know, that was another kind of lesson that stoicism really hammered home. And, you know, I, I mentioned, again, I, I mentioned I played poker for 25 years, so that was a lesson that's been hammered home in my life, you know, over and over and over again.
Um, but, uh, you know, that's where it– So I wouldn't necessarily say that, um, uh, like, you know, there was something missing in systems thinking or there was something missing in stoicism. To me, they just, they meshed so, so well together, and when I kind of looked at the world, um, through, through the, the both of that, through the lens of both of them together, it, it felt very, very like a complete operating system or essentially if, you know, for lack of a better word, uh, that I could use, uh, to, you know, map out the, the various systems of my day-to-day life.
Erick: Interesting. Yeah. 'Cause one of the questions I was gonna ask was, um, since systems thinking is, you know, says that almost everything is interconnected and c- you know, causally entangled, where stoicism you can only focus on what you can control. And so finding that tension there in between them, I think was interesting.
Um, how do you, how do you kind of hold both of those without collapsing into fatalism on one side or, you know, narrow fo- self-focus on the other side?
Michael Lukich: Um, y- it's a good question. I mean, I think there's a, y- there's a constant, you know, push and pull , you know, with that too, right? And it's, I think it's easily, you can, it's easy to fall into the trap of fatalism, right? Of just being like th- it's, there's, there's really nothing you can do about things. And I, I, I, I'm t- I'm a more of an optimist, I think, right?
And I, I, I, I, I still come back to, uh, you know, there's lots that are not in your… There, there's lots of things that are not in control, but, uh, in your, in your control. But at the end of the day, there are plenty of things that are, right? And, um, you know, I a- I also still keep coming back to, uh, you know, this, and maybe this is the, um, the blind optimism side of me, right?
But I'm, I'm raising two daughters at the time, and I, you know, it's the lessons that I'm trying to, to, to drill into them day after day, which is, uh, you know, we can, we can… Like, we wanna be giving our best effort at things. We wanna be trying our best. We wanna be, um, you know, doing the best that we can to enact, you know, different outcomes.
And, um, you know, maybe we can't, you know, officially control, uh, or we m- maybe we can't, uh, 100% control an outcome, but we can contr- but we can do our best to try to influence that outcome as best as we can, right? And, um, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean we don't have an… Just because we can't necessarily control an outcome doesn't mean we don't have an influence over an outcome, especially if we are working really, really hard.
And if we've mapped out those systems and we understand, um, you know, the stimulus and response, right? Like, what, what we can do to influence that outcome, we can put ourselves in a better position to achieve whatever it is that we want to achieve or, or to influence whatever it is that we want to influence.
Erick: So do you find maybe for yourself the reason you're drawn to systems thinking is that it kind of gives you, uh, maybe a sense of control because you can see the bigger picture of things?
Michael Lukich: I, I mean, maybe that's a, it's an interesting way of looking at that, and I don't know if I've, I've ever, you know, thought about it that way. But I mean, a- as someone who has, has had control issues like throughout my life, that might be, uh, that might be, uh, uh, you might be onto something there. Um, you know, I, I, I don't know, I don't know.
I mean, it, to me I, I, I like I, I think I've reached a happy medium of, uh, you know, getting to the point where At least if you're able to map out, um, at least what it is that you're able to understand, you can make the best decisions possible, and that's at the end of the day, like, what, what you wanna be judged off of, or what I would wanna be judged off of is, am I making good decisions?
And I, I don't know… You're not gonna know the answer to that if you haven't necessarily, uh, you know, defined out what your environment looks like, uh, defined out what your goals are or what you're trying to do, um, you know, the different kind of factors that are at play. Uh, but if you're able to map all of that out, if you're able to understand the landscape really, really well, you can make the best decision that you can with the information that's, uh, available to you
Erick: Nice. So you mentioned poker a couple of times, so let's circle back onto that. So, so you mentioned that for you, poker is kind of a training ground for decision-making under uncertainty. what's a, I guess, a, what's a hand or a decision that taught you something distinctly stoic? Not just probability, but, you know, virtue and control.
I mean, how do you mix poker back into kind of your idea of sto- with stoicism?
Michael Lukich: Oh, well, I mean, I, I could, uh, I, I think there's so much that, that, that goes in there. Um, you know- Poker is a, uh, you know, poker gets a bad rap sometimes, right? Because it's, uh, you know, it, it's gambling, right? And like, you know, there's, uh, there's, there's, there's, there's definitely that side of things, and there's prob- there's the seedy aspect of poker, right?
And you can kinda go back to, uh, you know, the '60s and '50s and, right? And there all the, the backroom games and, uh, you know, lots of robberies and, you know, kind of the shady kind of underbelly o- of it. But i- it's also a, a, a beautifully simple game, in my opinion, at least, and, um, there's… It's a game where in the long run, um, the skill will, will win out, right?
So, um, I, I've, I've, you know, uh, I actually wrote a- an essay recently for, for, uh, you know, on my website about this, where I, I was looking at, uh, just, uh, simulations of the same exact, um… You took a player with a, a theoretical, a hypothetical theoretical player with a, with a win rate, and you simulated a bunch of clones of that person and, uh, played a bunch of, uh, you know, different hands through, through a Monte Carlo simulation and, uh, looking at just the, the spread of, of their possible outcomes or their possible results, and it's, uh, surprising how long it takes to actually get to the long run.
And, uh, you can, you can, uh, have, uh, you know, the same players who ha- have the same exact skill levels but have, you know, very, very, uh, you know, wide spreads of results, especially in the shorter term. Um, y- what I've… If I'm k- going back to the question then around, like, are there particular hands or, or whatnot, I mean, you know, oftentimes, you know, the, I, I wrote a, the, the simplest example in your book, 'cause then maybe your, your, your listeners aren't necessarily all, all poker players, right?
So they're not gonna necessarily, um, uh, you know, know the, the nuances of the game. But, but the, the very simplest example that I'll, I'll share is, um, an example in my book, which is, let's say you're at, at a table, and you have, you look down at your cards, and you have two aces, right? And, you know, we're playing Texas Hold'Em, and two aces is the best hand you could possibly have.
It's, you know, the, um, the, you know, aces are the best ha- best c- rank, and you get two of them, and the, and you only get dealt two cards. It's, it's the best hand. And luckily enough, there's a per- there's action in front of you, and somebody else just goes all in with all, for all of their chips right in front of you, and you have two aces, and it's your turn to act.
And, um, you know, you obviously decide to call, right? You have no better hand than aces. Uh, you, uh, you should abso- ab- absolutely put your money in with aces. And, you know, so we get the money in the pot, and the other person can flip over their hands, and let's just say they have two kings, right? So you have two aces.
They have two kings. Well, there's still the luck element of it, which is the community cards on the board have to get dealt out. Um, your aces are going to beat those two kings 80% of the time. Um, that's a great s- great thing. You're getting your money in as an 80% favorite. Uh, but at the same time, uh- That when you, if you win 80% of the time, that in- that implies that you're also going to lose 20% of the time.
So 20% of the time, a king is gonna flip over on the board, and that per- that person's kings is gonna beat your aces. Well, you know, if one of those 20% of the time happens, is, is that, you know, something that you make a bad decision? And I think, you know, oftentimes people can look at that, and I've had actually, like, students where I've…
I used to coach poker a lot, and I've had students lose in spots exactly like that, and they'll come to me and they'll say, "What could I have done differently?" And the answer is, "Well, honestly, nothing." I mean, this is just part of the game, right? And you made the best decision with the information that you had at the time, but variance kicks in, and sometimes you, um, are on the wrong side of variance.
I, I think the stoic idea that comes into play here is, uh, again, you go back to the, um… I always ask the, the, I always try to look at a decision and, and ask the question, w- you know, was this bad luck or was this bad process, right? And if it was, if it was bad luck, well, you know, your systems are still intact.
You, uh, you just accept that with equanimity, right? And that's kind of the stoic side of things is you accept the results a- as is, right? You did the best that you could, you accept the poor results, and you move on. Um, if it's bad process, okay, well, you know, if you made a mistake in, in what it, it was that you did, then you go back to the drawing board and try to fix that system so that, you know, the next time that that situation comes up, you are in a better situation then.
Um, and, you know, the, I think the stoic side is just understanding that there, you have to move on to the next hand, right? The next hand is gonna be dealt. Whether you, you lose all the money right there, um, you know, the next hand is gonna be continued to be dealt. And if I continue to let that bother me, right, and that's, you know, it's, it's, the ne- then, um, then I'm gonna start playing poorly the rest of the night, and you hear people call that on tilt, right?
Um, I, I, I have to just continue to understand that all I can control are those inputs, and I continue to just make the best decisions that I can. And, you know, if, if the, sometimes the cards don't fall great, uh, fall that well, um, and, you know, that, that, that's just the way it is. And, uh, you know, what was it?
Uh, I think Seneca wrote a little bit about, uh, just, um, you know, uh, he, he wrote a bit, he wrote a little bit about chance in, in some of his, in some of his writings too and, um, how, uh, you know, fortune just is, you know, sometimes fortune swings both dir- uh, both ways, right? So that's… I, I think it's just, you know, they got this way back then too, and they, you know.
So it's, uh, just one of those ideas that, uh, that, that's, uh, just could carry through, uh, and it's, I think it's a very, very, uh, important concept
Erick: Yeah. So basically the idea that, um, good decisions can still lead to bad outcomes.
Michael Lukich: Yes. I mean, 100%. Yeah, and, and bad decisions can lead to good outcomes sometimes too, right? You can get lucky and, uh, you know, it's… And that's happened too. I mean, the very first time I played poker, I, I w- I honestly, I wasn't a very good poker player, but I just ran really, really well on my first night, and I made a lot of money on my very first night, and I came home thinking I'm the greatest poker player.
I was ready to just play for a living and quit my jobs and, and, you know, do whatever it was that I could, could. I, I often think about that sometimes, which is just, like, how many people would've been great at poker or whatever it was that they were, you know, did, but just had a bit of bad luck to start, and they were discouraged, and they quit something at the very beginning.
Um, you know, a- and, you know, but, and they weren't, it wasn't because they were, they were doing anything poorly or bad, they just ran, ran badly or had some bad luck to start. And, um, you know, that feedback loop kind of came and, uh, told them that it was time for them to, you know, uh, you know, that, that wasn't the right thing for them.
And I, I just, you know, it makes me wonder j- a lot of those kind of, like, what-ifs that could've, could've happened in life if, you know, just luck happened a little bit differently.
Erick: Yeah. No, I agree on that. S- so let's talk about the, I think probably one of the, the more important aspects in you… It's in the beginning of your book, is that iceberg model. So maybe break that down a little bit, 'cause I think that might be one of the core things that, you know, I think would really resonate with my listeners.
Michael Lukich: Yeah. The iceberg model is a, it's, it's a way, it's a systems model of, of understanding, um, just, uh, how, how we see the world and how we often fall into these traps of reacting to events as opposed to understanding kind of what leads to those particular events. All right, so we're all familiar with the icebergs in, in, with the iceberg in general, in the sense that, uh, only a small portion of the iceberg is, is above water, right?
But there's a lot of, of the iceberg that's actually below water. And, um, you know, we've seen those visuals, right? And, you know, I think they're kind of all on social media and stuff as people kind of adopt that iceberg to something else and they kind of, this is what you see, and then this is everything else that's un- underneath the bottom of the iceberg.
Um, but, uh, there was, um Uh, so and, and a, a small little systems book, and actually if, uh, you know, there, there's, uh, this systems scientist, uh, his name is Daniel Kim, uh, put together this, you know, 20-page intro to systems thinking packet, which is actually great. I would highly recommend it as an intro to systems thinking.
Uh, and he dove into the specifics o- o- of this iceberg model. And what he argues is that at the top of this iceberg are, you know, where most of us sit when we, you know, think about the world, and that's, uh, the events that we actually see, right? So we see, we, we respond to events and, um, you know, it… We, we see those events, and then, and, and we respond to those particular events, and we get stuck in this loop of just reacting, constantly reacting to the events that are happening to us, uh, day in, day out, without necessarily questioning, you know, why those particular events are happening over and over again to us or, um, you know, trying to understand what it is that we can do to, you know, maybe react to those events diff- a little differently, put ourselves in better situations, and so on and so forth.
As you can start kind of going down, you can start, uh, the, what the, the iceberg model does is it breaks down the underlying components, um, you know, below those events. So, um, underneath those events are patterns, right? So we all, we might have, we might fall into these patterns where we are, um, we're doing the same things over and over again that are leading to those same events that are happening, right?
So if we start can, if we can start recognizing those patterns that happen in our lives that lead to those particular events, maybe we can intervene to, um, actually kind of prevent or alter those course of those individual events. Um, underneath those patterns might be, uh, the structures of our lives, right?
So, you know, I think about this often as like, um, uh, you v- you know, maybe, maybe the events might be something like I'm always tired, right? Or I'm always, you know, late for work or whatever the case may be, right? Um, but the, you know, as I kind of start diving deeper, that systemic structure might be something along the lines of, um, you know, I'm, I'm not getting enough sleep at night, right?
So the s- the structure in my, in my day-to-day life is, is leading to those particular events that I might, uh, be seeing at, at the top of the iceberg. Um, but it's caused ultimately by some of those structures that are kind of in the middle, uh, you know, towards the bottom of that iceberg. And then as you kind of go down towards the bottom of that iceberg, it's around, uh, the mental models of how we are, you know, interacting with reality, right?
So, um, this is a, a common, this is a core concept of, of, uh, just thinking in general, which is we all have these, these mental models, which is how we actually understand the world. Um, the mental models that we have in our life, uh, in our, in our minds, that's n- we're not actually experiencing reality. We're experiencing reality through our mental models, right?
So those mental models that are kind of at the bottom of, of that iceberg, which are making up the way in which we look at the world, those mental models feed into those structures that we have, the systemic structures that we have throughout our lives, which feed into the patterns that we experience and we, you know, see on a day-to-day level, and then ultimately kind of leads to those events that we're experiencing on a, on, um, you know, throughout the course of, of our lives.
Uh, if we're going to tr- if we wanna influence those top-line events, we need to work our way down to the lower levels of the iceberg to get more constant change, right? So the lower that we go down into the iceberg, the more foundational we can, we can work on to, uh, change ourselves or change the, the environments of our world for the better.
Uh, and, and, you know, so th- so that's kind of the, the idea of that iceberg model is that, it's all kind of on this foundation from below.
Erick: Nice. Yeah, it's– when I read that, it was very similar to kind of how I often talk about things and the idea of, you know, we have kind of first level habits that influence our life, which in your case would be patterns. You know, these are just things that we do. then those habits are often influenced by the circumstances and the environment that we live in.
So again, right there. And then the mental models, which is basically our belief about how the way the world works,
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: you know? And, you know, that because we interpret information based upon that, when something happens, we go, "Well, w-" you know, we interpret that and go, "Well, what does that thing mean?" And we have to go back to our past, we have to go back to our other experiences and r-rely on our beliefs to try and make this fit within our
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: makes sense.
You know, I mean, they always joke about, you know, how– I don't know if they joke about it, but this, there was this idea that, um, know, some native cultures when, you know, colonizing forces would come in with their giant ships, they– the people didn't really understand what they were. And so because they were so out of their mental model of, of their worldview of what the world is, that they couldn't comprehend what this sh- this giant thing was that was floating in. And so they didn't understand there was any danger with it, because for them it was just like, you know, it, it was so far out of left field
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: it didn't make any sense,
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: And, uh, yeah. So I, I think that's– for me, when I read that, I was just like, "Oh yeah, this is very much along, you know, kind of the way that I see the world," which is very informed by, you know, my understanding of stoicism.
And for me, that's one of the things I appreciated about stoicism was, you know, it, it really broke things down in a much more rational way, and so I could look at things more critically than I had been doing before. And there were just so many instances. So my first book was, uh, to the Good Life: The Art of Stoic Joy by William Irvine.
And I remember there were moments I was reading that, and I was just like, I would just stop and I'd, and like, "This, this is m- such a better way to view the world than how I've been thinking the world actually works." So it was shifting those mental models underneath, you know, being able to look at things that way.
Like, you know, understanding why I was angry about so many things all the time, and it was because I couldn't control them, and I was frustrated. So it was really just frustration, but I d- but until I could actually look at that and understand that, it was just like I'd, I'd feel reactive and angry and be like, then afterwards when I cool down, I'm like, "Why did I get so upset about that, that thing that wasn't really all that big?"
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: for– And so I kept having these light bulb moments, and I think that's why stoicism really stuck for me. It was, it was the first time I found a logical framework that just kind of explained, "Hey, this is how life works. It's not a perfect model, but it's a pretty good model." You know, it's like they
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: "No, no model is perfect, but some are useful."
Michael Lukich: Yeah, that's, um, uh , uh, um, what was that? That was, uh, I believe that was George Box. That was, uh, uh, a, a statistician and, um, but, uh, yeah, he said, "All, all, um, all models are, um, all models are wrong, but some models are useful," right? So,
Erick: Yeah
Michael Lukich: but, um, and, and it's, it's totally true, right? And I, I, I… That's a cool, that's a cool, um, uh, story about how, uh, you kind of came into stoicism and, uh, that's, I mean, it's, it's very resonant here.
I, I even, like, go back to, uh… I, I mean, I think we were all kind of messed up after, after the pandemic, right? So like, um, like, uh, you know, there was, like, that 2020 to 2022 time period, I just was constantly stressed and angry and, uh, you know, just pulled in, in lots of different directions, and you're kind of battling with all of those emotions.
And I, I totally had very similar experience as I'm going through and reading, uh, this. And, you know, I, I'm loving as I'm reading, you know, Meditations for the first time, and I'm like, "This guy's, like, the emperor of Rome, and he's, like, having the same anxiety and anger issues like, you know, 2,000 years ago."
And it's, it's, it's putting things into a lot of, uh… It puts things into a, a good perspective and, and kind of really helps, uh… I think I, at least for me, it, it was, it was wonderful about helping me work through a lot of the issues and put things into the appropriate perspective in, in my own brain at least.
Erick: Yeah. And what I love about Meditations that some people don't, don't really consider is that Meditations, he talks nothing about his victories or any logistics or anything like
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: It's all his own personal,
Michael Lukich: Right
Erick: rumination on himself and trying to understand himself, and here's my frustrations, and, you know, here are the things that are going on, and I'm not living up to my potential and, and my ideals.
And, you know, it was, it was like a constant interrogation of himself to understand his own emotions. You know, and he, and he writes about those things rather than, you know, than talking about, "Well, I did this great and glorious thing today." You know, it's kind of like, "You know, I'm just– I feel like I'm just short with people, and I'm not being as nice as I, I should be and, and want to be, and, you know, and, and how do I be more compassionate, and how do I, you know, make sure that I'm living up to my ideals?"
And, and for me, you know, that, that sense of humility, uh, was pretty impressive, and I think that's why he was considered, you know, of the greatest emperors there ever was, 'cause he was the most powerful man in the world, and he could have just been like, "I can do whatever I want, and everybody has to do what I say," you know, and, and could have pulled in a lot of power for himself.
But he, you know, he was so strongly influenced by his own moral compass that he couldn't do that. In fact, you know, one of the things that he, he doesn't talk about in much Meditations, but he really worked for the manumission of slaves, meaning slaves' rights. So, like, when slaves would, you know, bring cases against their owners for ma-mistreatment or not, you know, not supporting them in certain ways, he oftentimes would err on the side of the slave, you know, give them a lot of latitude rather than going, "Well, you know, you're just a slave.
You don't matter." He was like, "No, no, no, be fair here," and really worked for reforming a lot of those things. So I– You know, for me, seeing a, a leader at that value take interest in slaves and, and making their lives better, that shows you what kind of person that he was, and I think that was, you know, one of the things that really came across for me when reading Meditations.
Michael Lukich: That's a cool story. I, I didn't, I didn't know that about, uh, you know, just, uh, his influence there on, um, you know, and, uh, and, and just the, the story about slavery there. But, uh, do you think that was, uh, you know, do you think he took that, uh, mentality, uh… Do you think that was all driven from his, his upbringing and just, like, that, you know, that he, he developed that, that strong moral compass early in life?
Or do you think that that was… You know, uh, I guess my question is, do you think that was always there? Or do you think that that was something that, uh, you know, he ultimately, you know, there was something in his life that kinda triggered that?
Erick: I think from what I've read, uh, someone like Donald Robertson's books and so on, uh, my understanding was that he just kind of had a very strong sense of, of justice as a, as a child. And so when, w- in his early teens when he stumbled onto stoicism and, and philosophy in general, he was just like, is it." And, and when he was a teenager, he wanted to be a philosopher and, you know, he would, he would wear like very simple clothing and, and sleep on the floor and, you know, they, there, there's an instance where his mother's like, "Okay, that's taking it a little bit too far. Sleep in your bed." And he's like, "But I don't want to.
I wanna, you know, I wanna be like the philosophers of old and, and live that, that ascetic lifestyle." And so, but his mom is just like, "Yeah, but you're a growing boy. It's not comfortable for you. You get bad sleep, so at least sleep on a bed." But he, he tr- even then, you know, lived a bit more of an ascetic life because that to him was a model of of, you know, kind of how to be in the world and that you don't focus on all these external things of like having the fastest racehorse or the nicest clothes or the most rings. You know, for him it was about the seeing these intellectual giants like Socrates and Plato and Epictetus and, you know, for… That was, those were the role models for him, and he wanted that intellectual capacity, and so that's where he put his efforts and energies because he wanted to be a great thinker.
He wanted to
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: a moral person because he felt like that's what would make him happy as a person, not, you know, how much, you know, do I have the nicest clothes? Do I live in the biggest palace? And those things weren't really of importance to him. You know, it
Michael Lukich: Right
Erick: his, his character was, was the thing that was gonna make him a, a good and happy person.
Michael Lukich: Right, right. Yeah, you can see that in his, in the writing, right? And it's, uh, it's, you know, certainly admirable. The thing I always gra- I always struggle with is, and, you know, i- i- is, is how, how Commodus, right, like, you know, his, his son, you know, just turns, like, the exact like, like opposite, right? And it's like, um, you know, it, it makes you wonder just the influence, you know, and, and, and how much actually even got through to him.
And I, you know, who knows, right? Like, obviously, like, um, uh, you know, Commodus lost lots of li- you know, like, well, you, there's a lot, like the stories about Marcus, uh, you know, burying lots of his, his children, um, that, that also means then Commodus lost lots of brothers and sisters, right? And that's gotta be challenging for him in itself, and, you know, everyone's life experiences are a little bit different.
Like, but it, it's, it, it… I still struggle with that kind of just, you know, how Marcus was just such a, you can read it in his work of just how he, if he were alive today, he would be totally i- in, you know, the, the personal growth and personal development like, like world. Like, that would've been his, his, uh, his, his people, uh, and Commodus certainly was not like that too.
Erick: Yeah. I think, um, I think Donald Robertson pointed some- there, a post that he pointed that out, and I, I thought it was really worth thinking about. Um, and one of that was because When Marcus was adopted by Antoninus, which was a condition that Hadrian put on Antoninus to be the next emperor. He's like, gonna adopt you, and you need to adopt Marcus," because Hadrian saw something in Marcus as a young boy, like saying, "This kid's sharp, and he's got a strong moral compass." you know, character to him was, was so important. but also Ant- but he also recognized Antoninus had inc- impeccable character. And the r- you know, I don't know if you know this story, but the main, you know, Hadrian was considering who to adopt for his heir. And, know, he had a, a number of choices.
He chose one guy, but then he died, and so he was like, "Okay, I gotta choose somebody else." And he had some people in consideration. And the one time he happened to see that Antoninus was helping his up to the Senate through the back stairs, you know, his elderly father-in-law. You know, he didn't have to 'cause they had servants.
They were well off. But he saw that, and he was just like, that was what caught his eye. He's like, "There's a man of character."
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: as he inquired more about Antoninus and seeing more of the type of person that he was, again, lived a very frugal lifestyle, was just, you know… And so the fact that that was now Marcus' father figure, you know, up until he became emperor,
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: I think that, that right there.
So he had years and years of training. Plus he was, he was already taking over some of the duties by the time he, he was installed as emperor, so it wasn't like he was just thrown into it. Um, so Antoninus had been slowly moving things over, and so the transition was, was fairly smooth. uh, Commodus didn't really have a lot of experience like that 'cause, uh, one, Marcus was busy running the empire, and there was so much chaos going on, whereas during Antoninus' reign, there wasn't very much chaos at all.
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: smooth. And so Marcus is, you know, fighting wars. We got plagues. We've got droughts. You know, we've got all these things going on. And so he's constantly putting fires out, and so he doesn't have a lot of time to be able to give to Commodus.
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: and then by the time he actually is, "Okay, let's Commodus, let's, let's start to bring you up and teach you some of these things," he only had a few years to be able to do that, whereas Marcus basically had, you know, like a decade and a half to be prepared to become emperor,
Michael Lukich: Hmm.
Erick: just had a very short time. Um, so, so we can cut him a little slack there in that he
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: he was a bit in over his head.
Michael Lukich: Fair enough
Erick: he just, he just didn't have the moral character that Marcus did, and that Marcus, from a very young age, philosophy was the thing for him and so because that was just such a core part of his identity, and I don't think that Commodus had that.
I think Commodus was more like, "Yeah, yeah, this philosophy stuff is okay. You know, that's, I, I know you like it, Dad, but that's not really my thing." Um, but because of that, because that became Marcus' filter on the world You know, that's just kind of the way that he handled things. That was his way of viewing everything was through that lens. And so when that is just your operating system, then it makes things so much easier because you don't have to go, "How do I feel about this?" Or, "How do I not feel about that?" And so when you come up to having that type of power, it's really hard for that power to corrupt you because fortified yourself long before you even got to that point
Michael Lukich: Yeah, that makes sense
Erick: But yeah. But that's why we see so many, uh, Roman emperors, you know, just become so incredibly corrupt is because, you know, when basically they're treated like their word is the word of God, then, you know, you, you can give into all your worst impulses. And that's where we get people like Nero and Caligula and, and these just awful, awful people, you
Michael Lukich: Yeah, if, I mean, if you, uh, if you believe that, I mean, if you believe that, you know, you're, you're there to, to be a god figure and, uh, you know, what, what, what you say is right and you don't have anybody who's, you know, even willing to tell you the truth, right? You're gonna, um, you're gonna, you're g- y- the human, human nature can, can lead us to, to some bad things as we've seen in history.
Erick: Yeah. And that's, that also points to why friction in your life is such a good thing it shows you where your limits are, and it, you know, basically makes it so that you, you know, before you make a stupid mistake, when you run into friction, you can go, "Oh, maybe this isn't the right path." But when that friction is removed and people are just lackeys and, you know, tell you whatever it is that you wanna hear as opposed to what you need to hear, then it makes it really easy to make a lot of bad decisions, which is part of why, you know, which eventually led to part of why the Roman Empire fell.
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: yeah,
Michael Lukich: There's an interest- that's an interesting idea that you just said about friction there too, 'cause I, I, um, I've been thinking about friction a lot, right? 'Cause, uh, you know, I, I, I, I think about it often through the lens of, uh, like streamlining productivity, right? And like, you know, like how you design your life and oftentimes, uh, you know, you're trying to remove as much friction as you can, right?
To make, you know, certain things easier. Uh, but it… I, I like the idea of what you're saying is that some fr- you need some friction, right? And it kind of takes me back to the idea of right, like, uh, you know, the golden mean, right? Of, uh, of, of those, uh, of, of your virtues, right? And it's, uh, you know, maybe, you know, a frictionless world is, is, is, is, you know, too far in one direction, whereas if you're, you know, too fr- too much friction on the other side, right?
And you can't get anything done or whatever the case may be, right? You know, that's probably too far on the other side. There's some threshold right in the middle that, that's probably like an optimal level of frish- of friction for you.
Erick: Well, I think that there needs to be friction in certain things. I
Michael Lukich: Yes
Erick: my, my last episode was all about, um, well, it was about habits, but the one before that was about the importance of reading and the virtue of reading. And, um, the problem is, I mean, what we're running into is that 19% of the US population reads 82% of the books. So means that basically it's becoming an, kind of almost an exclusive club, an exclusive class. And the thing is, is that reading is what actually, that friction that's there is necessary for you to learn. The harder something is for you to grasp and to grok onto, the more your brain remembers it. it's really important to make sure that that friction is there.
And as we become, as we're turning back into more oral and visual society, we're losing that friction and those points that, you know, when you're reading something hard and you go, "Wait a second, that didn't make any sense," then you have to go back and, and read it again and go, I'm…" You know, and that's why, you know, this kind of the sys- systemic approach of reading something and, and reading difficult things, adding that friction back in is what, you know, changes your mind. Um, it allows you to develop better mental models because you have to work to get them, it actually changes the, the way your brain actually, uh, wires itself. And they've actually done studies on that, that the amount of brain power it takes to watch a movie is significantly less than the amount of brain power it takes to read a book. So that friction is good for you. It's what strengthens your mind, and it makes those connections even stronger. And so adding friction in the right places is incredibly important because can't have growth without friction. It's like if you go to the gym and every weight you lift is easy, you're not gonna gain any muscle.
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: have friction in there.
Michael Lukich: Yep
Erick: to be resistance, otherwise you're just, you're wasting time.
Michael Lukich: That's an interesting, uh, the, the 19%, uh, of, of people, uh, reading 82% of the books, that's an interesting stat. H-how has that changed over time, right? 'Cause that's, um, it does, I mean, that's, that follows a Pareto distribution, right? Which, uh, you know, the 80/20 rule, which is, uh, prevalent everywhere, right? And like, so, um, yeah, I, I would…
I, I'm curious if that's actually, you know, how much that has changed over time. I, I know that like we, we've seen, like I mean, you know, I've seen so many articles recently around like, there was the, the Atlantic one that w- that came out like several months back, right? The End of Reading, which, uh,
Erick: Yeah
Michael Lukich: was a, was a great read in its, in and of, of itself, right?
And I, you know, as someone who just wrote a book, right, I've definitely had multiple conversations of people being like, "Well, do people actually buy books or read books anymore?" And I, I hope so, right? Like, uh, you know, I, um, I, I think that you get so, so much from, from reading. Um, you know, I, I know myself, uh, uh, I, I, I'd always read, but I, you know, over the last like three, four, five years or so, um, have kind of amped up, uh, you know, my reading habits and I'm trying to read harder things and challenge myself with, um, uh, original texts and, you know, not just necessarily like the secondary materials and things like that.
And you can see the connections that you form. "Oh, I read this book over here, and, uh, there's an idea that this author talks about that's very, very similar to this completely different idea that I've seen in, in another book that I read two years ago," right? And so there's a lot of like wonderful things that, uh, the connections that you can make in your brain from, from reading.
I'm just curious, I guess, how, how that's kind of evolved over, o- over time.
Erick: Um, from what I understand, you know, reading back even, you know, uh, i- in that same article, and that's the one that spurred on that podcast
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: um, in 1958, the top novel in the United States was the English translation of Doctor Zhivago,
Michael Lukich: Hmm
Erick: Boris Pasternak writes in very long, complicated,
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: you know, verse.
You know, and it's, it's this idea that it's not just simplistic stuff. I mean, and do you know what the top novel was last year?
Michael Lukich: Was it The Latin Theory or something? Or, oh, that's not a novel, I guess. But, uh,
Erick: Yeah.
Michael Lukich: uh, no, I don't know.
Erick: Hunger Games
Michael Lukich: Oh, yeah, okay. I was gonna say, like, the Dun- Dungeon Crawler Carl or something like that or
Erick: yeah. I mean, and the thing is, is there's nothing wrong with, you know, with stuff that's lighter like that.
Michael Lukich: Right, right
Erick: that we're slowly degrading our capacity for difficult text.
Michael Lukich: That's true, yeah
Erick: in so doing… I mean, like, uh, they mentioned in the study that in Harvard, there are students that are complaining about having to read books in their classes. you know, and then their SAT scores and are also going down even as they're shortening the passages and making them simpler passages. So we've lowered the bar, and then we're actually not even meeting that bar. And I'm finding, I'm like, "Wow, we're… It, it feels like we're digressing as a society by not doing that." And reading those more challenging texts like, you know, Shakespeare and stuff like that and, you know, and even just, even just complicated fiction like, you know, I love sci-fi, you know. And so I'll read stuff by Asimov and Neal Stephenson and things like that because they're very complex worlds that they're
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: and there's a lot of, you know…
And you're also getting the inter-interiority of the characters, and so you're understanding how people are working with each other. and, I mean, my favorite ones are always, like, the big epic ones like Sword of Shannara and Stephen King's The Stand. I, I was enthralled with that book because it was just this giant world with all these complex characters and, you know, Randall Flag can be so charming and then, you know, throw somebody off a building at the end just because he loses his mind and, you
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: So it's just all of the… So, but that, that ability to take those things, and this is why so many people say the book was better, is because as you're reading that book, you are creating this whole world in
Michael Lukich: Yes. Yes
Erick: you're building these mental models, and you're building capacity to be able to hold all of these, this whole different reality in your head and how these pe- different people work with each other. And when we lose that capacity, it reflects on our real lives as well because we're dealing with, you know, sitcoms, and we're dealing with just very, you know, social media, which are, you know, there's, there's no depth and complexity to those things. And so your, your ability to understand the interiority of other people drops dramatically because you don't immerse yourself into that in a very deep way
Michael Lukich: Yeah, I, it's, you know, I, I mean, the, the introduction of my book, I, I tr- started calling this out a little bit, and that's one of the things that concerns me, uh, a lot is, um, how the world seems to be growing more and more complex, yet we're s- relying more and more on tools that are taking our ability to think away.
Um, uh, you know, there's… A- and some of… And look, it's, you know, I'm, I'm, we're all guilty of, of, of some of these things, right? So it's like, uh, you know, look at, um, you know, some of our human skills that we had, you know, you know, 20, 30 years ago of, like, just navigation, right? And, like, now it's like, you know, you turn on W- Waze every single time you jump into your car, right?
Just to even get around the neighborhood, right? Like, uh, it's, um, you know, so we're, we're losing some of these, like, human skills to be able to figure things out and think appropriately. And, um, it, it, it's certainly a concerning thing, uh, you know, how, uh, what, what's the, what's the book? Uh, Amusing Ourselves to Death, that N- Neil Postman, right?
I mean, he was very prescient, um, you know, about this, uh, you know, and he's writing about this in like 1985 about things like, you know, TV and the telegraph, right? But, like, now we're kind of even condensed ourselves down into second second TikTok videos. So, uh, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's definitely, um, an, an interesting, uh, an interesting trend, uh, you know, in society.
Erick: So I'm gonna g- go off… We've kinda gotten off a little bit
Michael Lukich: Yeah, we have a little bit.
Erick: thinking, but, um, but there's one idea that I wanna throw at you, b- which I think you'll appreciate, and then we can step back into some of the systems thinking and then wrap it up. Um, and it was this idea I read on this, uh, this blog post, and I thought it was really w- a well-made thing, and it was the idea that before we were an oral culture, and so everything was very subjective, meaning it was all this pers-…
he said, she said, basically, with everything. Because we were a completely ch- subjective society, it was very hard to pass on learning because, you know, everybody… it was all based on somebody's opinion about something.
Michael Lukich: Mm-hmm.
Erick: Then when the, when we got writing down and it was like, "Oh, okay, now we could put something down on paper. could read it, you could read it, they could read it. Now we all have a common frame of reference, and these things don't change because they're on paper." We might interpret them a little bit differently, but it becomes much more static, and so therefore it's more durable. And so passing on knowledge and wisdom becomes a more durable thing rather than a subjective thing that, that, you know, changes, you know, basically the game of telephone, if you will. And then, and that led to all types of things like the ability to, you know, formalize logic, grammar, geometry, all of these things, because we were able to write things down, then we were able to create structure, which then lent itself better to better storytelling because now we could actually review the structure of this thing.
Does this actually make sense here? Wait, over here he said that the, you know, he's wearing a green hat, and then down here it says a blue hat. Okay, you know, you can find logical inconsistencies with thing. And that ability to do that sharpened, uh, our, our, ability because the writer had to write things down in a way that was more compelling and made sense to the reader.
And so it actually increased our stuff. We were able to hand down knowledge much, much better, and we were able to create a shared reality that most of us could agree upon. If
Michael Lukich: Mm.
Erick: same book and we're talking about it, or we all read the same books, then our frame of reference is much similar, and it's not a reality that's changing all the time because once the book is printed, that's what's there.
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: we can always refer back to it, which is why, you know, it's kinda like the Bible. That's why people refer to the Bible, because it's a static thing that's somewhat unchanging. Unfortunately, it's due to interpretation, but it gives people a common frame of reference. So if I go into a Christian church and I start quoting scripture, w- I have a common frame of reference to be able to talk with those people in their reality. You know, or the Quran or the writings of Buddha, whatever it is that you wanna talk about. But then when we get to video We degrade that a little bit because video, while it may give more visual information, not as deep as what you get in text. And so start to lose a little bit there, so it fragments our ability just a little bit.
Plus then we get more and more TV stations and more and more outlets for those type of things, which then starts to fragment our reality. And so when we had three news stations, it was easy. You go talk to your neighbor about the news stories that were on last night, and you're in a common reality. But as we got cable TV kept spreading out, then we started to fragment, and my reality became different than my neighbor's reality.
Michael Lukich: Hmm
Erick: And then we got the internet, which then we have networked fragmentation 'cause you have rabbit holes all over the place. And so then that, that's chan- you know, that creates a, a bigger distance of reality than, than there was before. And now that we have social media, that, that was another f- layer of fragmentation. And now the problem with AI is that it creates a singular bubble for you.
Michael Lukich: Yep
Erick: When I create a prompt and it's responding back to me, that's custom-made for me.
Michael Lukich: Yep, 100%.
Erick: me in my own bubble, which, you know, like they talk about AI psychosis. It puts me in my, a bubble of one at this point. So I'm not even in a bubble with, you know, other people because I've gone down some weird rabbit holes or I follow the same creators on, on social media. I've got my custom-made bubble that
Michael Lukich: Yep.
Erick: in
Michael Lukich: Yep. It's, uh, it's, it's a little depressing, but, uh, like it's, uh, um, yeah, it's, uh… What did they, what did they say? Just, you know, this is where it's, uh, important to get out there and touch grass, right? So, and like, um, you know, I, I… This is where I hope, and like I've, I, I've started to, uh, read some, some interesting, um, you know, just, you know, trends or culture.
And I'm, I'm certainly not, uh, you know, uh, the person who's gonna understand culture as best as, uh, as, at least as, you know… My wife is the person who understands culture better than I do in, in our household. But, um, you know, uh, there's, there's this anti-um, uh, technology and AI backlash that's, you know, happening now at least, where you're starting to see more and more people, um, craving, you know, uh, connection and in-person events and, uh, you know, community and things like that.
And let's, uh, you know, that's at least, you know, the optimist in me that's kind of hoping that we kind of sway back a little bit here and, you know, start to prioritize that a little bit more in life. And you know, it's… 'Cause, 'cause at the end of the day, right, like it's, you know, that's, that's what it's all about, right?
It's like, you know, having these like shared realities and shared connections with, you know, like the people that we love, our friends, our family and, and, and, and, you know, hopefully as many people as, as we can in our communities as well too, so.
Erick: Yeah. That's… Yeah, and that's kinda how I see it, is that we need to get back to those in-person things, because even if we disagree on, you know, we're still in our own little media bubble at home, at least going out and sh- and like you say, touching grass with other people, then we can at least share some of that reality with people.
Michael Lukich: Right. Right
Erick: I definitely agree with that. All right. We can switch back
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: a little bit more about system thinking.
Michael Lukich: Cool
Erick: um, yeah, let's see. How much time do we have here? So we're looking at about an hour here. So we… Yeah, let's, let's do one or two more questions, and we'll go ahead and wrap up.
Michael Lukich: Sounds great
Erick: so if someone could steal, you know, like one piece of the framework from the book or one salient point that would really make a giant change in their life, what would that be?
Do they have to read the whole book, or would they, you know, is there, like, you know, here's, here's that one thing? Like, you know, in stoicism, it's dichotomy of control and virtue. Those are kinda the two big things. But you can expand out on those infinitely. But what is the… What is one big thing that people could really take that would make a big change for them to be able to, you know, start applying systems thinking in their life?
Michael Lukich: So One idea in systems thinking that I'm fascinated by and I love is this concept of emergence. And, um, you know, what emergence is, is that, uh, you know, oftentimes, uh, you see these systems, these large ecosystems or these large systems that form, you know, kind of on their own, right? And they, they, the, the large system itself has properties that you don't see in the under- un- the individual parts, right?
So I, I, I use the example in the book of, of an ant colony, right? So, like, an, an ant colony is filled with a bunch of individual ants, and ants are very s- simple creatures, right? They're, they're just coded with, um, you know, they're, they're following scents. They're, um, you know, most of them are almost, they're, they're, they're, they're v- virtually br- blind.
They're, um, you know, they're not, you know, complex, you know, individuals. Uh, but they follow this set of rules, right? Uh, you know, and each of the individual ants is following, um, you know, this set of rules that's, you know, kind of encoded within them. When you zoom out and look at the entire ant colony, uh, they can do some am– They're, they're, they're amazing creatures, right?
They, they build some, uh, you know, a- uh, incredible colonies and, uh, you know, s- you know, different species of ants, you know, will, will build these massive labyrinths of, of, of colonies. Um, some species of ants have been known to, like, farm fungi. Uh, you know, you know, one of my favorite, uh, species of ants is, uh, the army ant, and they kind of just roam the, the, the floors of the forest.
And some ants, when they are trying to get over, like, a, a gap in the forest, they'll, like, make themselves into, uh, bridges so that the rest of the colony can kind of climb over them, right? And this is not, this is just, this, this is an emergent behavior of, of a bunch of individual ants, right? And we see this in things like, um, like mark- like the markets, right?
So markets are, you know, no one's out there, like, developing, uh, a market for something. Like, the markets exist because, uh, it's a summation of all of the individual transactions, uh, that people are taking place, uh, you know, in, in, in the world. Um, I think that pr- that's ex- that, that extends to, um, all of our lives as well too, and that's where I try to explore a lot in part three of the book, which is the applications.
And what really interested me about the combination of systems thinking and stoicism was, how can I start applying these concepts or ideas to design and, and design my own life, right? Like, and I, and, you know, what, what's important to me is living, um, living a life of meaning, um, you know, um, having, uh, um, something that's going to, you know, feed my mind, right?
You know, keep me, you know, intellectually stimulated, um, doing, you know, doing good work, continuing to develop, um, you know, my, my body, uh, making sure that I'm kind of eating healthy, you know, living a good life, you know, kind of, you know, uh, optimizing for longevity, uh, my soul. I'm hanging out with my family.
I'm, you know, fulfilling myself, right? Uh, so my idea here being that You, you shouldn't be taking this top-down view of a- trying to architect everything in your life because that's just, it's, uh, uh, this centralized view of things, um, it's, uh, at least to me, I've, I've tried this before in the past, right?
And I've, I've failed miserably whenever I've tried to do that. Um, what I find, uh, is better– that's better is understanding that idea of emergence and working at, at just making sure you're trying to design for the individual daily habits that you're doing every single day, right? So am I getting up in the morning and, you know, getting outside and just getting some fresh air and walking in the morning, right?
Like, that does a lot of things for me. I get out, I get out, I get for a walk, I, you know, move my body around, I'm out in nature, right? So I'm, I'm getting some good, uh, good feedback with the world. Um, you know, making sure that I'm working out, making sure that I'm reading, making sure that I'm, you know, spending time with my family.
Like, these are small, little individual things, but all of these small little choices that I'm making throughout my life, the emergent property is that life that I want, right? So if I can kind of, you know, stick to those small individual parts of the system and, you know, focus on those and, and, and stack up enough of those small individual par- parts that are positive, then my theory being that, um, a, a, you know, that life of meaning or the life that we want is going to emerge from, um, that collective system.
Erick: Hmm. Yeah, I like that. That's, that's interesting. So that kind of, kind of fits in nicely with my last podcast episode, which was about keystone habits, and it's the idea of finding that one habit that influences most of the other habits in your life.
Michael Lukich: For me, it's sleep. It's, it's sleep. So honestly, like, like, well, y- I, I swear, like, this is, like, the one thing, um, that, um… I mean, there's, there's probably, uh, I would say sleep and walking, right? Like, walking
Erick: Mm-hmm.
Michael Lukich: has turned into, um, for me at least, like, you know, the place where I… You know, sometimes I'm listening to a podcast, sometimes I listen to an audiobook, sometimes I'm just out there in nature.
Sometimes I'm, you know… The people in my neighborhood probably think I'm insane sometimes because I'll throw my headphones on and, like, just start dictating things, writing, like, capture a voice note that I'll, uh, you know, have for later on. But it's… You know, you're, you're doing multiple things, right, when you're walking, right?
You're, you're moving your body. You're, you know, you're interacting with nature. You're, uh, you know, you could be listening to something and kind of, you know, multitasking at that same point too. But, um, you know, I also say sleep in the sense that, uh, I go back to my 20s, right, and I'm, you know, you're, you're, you're sitting on, you know, five hours of sleep a night, right?
I, I was often playing poker till 2:00 in the morning or, you know, going out for drinks with my friends or something like that, right? And then you wake up for work in the morning. As soon as you start pri- prioritizing going to bed and, uh, you know, getting a good seven or eight hours of sleep a night, um, it's amazing how, uh, how much more energy you have and how that kind of flows through to the rest of your life.
Erick: Yeah, and for me it's, it's cycling. That's
Michael Lukich: Okay. Mm-hmm.
Erick: that's one of my keystone habits. And then, and the podcast is my other one.
Michael Lukich: Okay
Erick: is, is my physical, this is part of who I am, and then that. But because I w- you know, like I love riding. I fell into it, uh, about in 2003. I watched the Ironman Kona and I was like, "Oh my God, that's so intense.
That's so hardcore." And I'd wrestled in high school, so I liked really intense stuff like that. And, uh, I was really out of shape, and I was just like, "I'm gonna do that." So I started training for triathlons and my first short course after losing like 25 pounds and getting to be a better swimmer and runner, but I found I loved cycling, so I'm like, "I'm hopping on that." But everything that I do in my life kind of orients myself around if I do this, is it gonna mess up my, You know, if I don't get good sleep, I'm not gonna be able to ride very well because I'll be too tired to get on the bike.
Michael Lukich: Huh.
Erick: too much the night before, I'm not gonna be– I'm gonna feel like shit and I'm not gonna be able to ride very well. Uh, you know, if I don't go to the gym, I'm not getting, you know, the muscle I need to do the thing, so I'm not gonna ride very well. And so everything, it became an, uh, just an orientation and kind of an anchor in my life of like, you know, three times a week and sometimes more, I go out for a ride. And that's, you know, it's als- And then that has therapeutic effects on top of that because it's such a zen t- space for me.
Michael Lukich: Yep
Erick: you know, but then also I feel a lot better 'cause I go out for these rides and my body is healthier, my legs look great. You know, I'm building all that kind of muscle, and so it, it becomes a, you know, a, a keystone to everything in my life. And then the podcast, you know, everything else, most of the other stuff that I do is centered around that.
What– The types of books that I read, the type of people I get to meet and have on this podcast changes my perspective on things.
Michael Lukich: Yeah
Erick: you know, and so there's everything kind of is in service to the podcast and to cycling, so it's kind of, kind of interesting.
Michael Lukich: In the systems world, we would call this, like, reinforcing positive feedback loops, right? And you're, you're just trying to put yourself in situations where, uh, you know, you're doing the activity and it, y- it kind of like you, you get the positive benefit, and then you just kind of keep cycling and, and think that's, you know, the power of compounding, right?
It's like that, uh, I'm sure when you first started cycling, um, you know, even if you enjoyed it, it probably, you know, you're probably a far better cycler now than you were when you, when you first started, right? And, like, you could probably, you, you know, and that's just because you've, you know, been doing it for so long and, you know, you've, you've learned a lot of things along, alongside it too.
So, uh, um, you know, that's, yeah, that's great
Erick: Yeah. But that was kind of a, but I hadn't quite thought about it as an emergent property and that by doing that, then I, I started eating better. I st- you know, I ate less, so I was eating healthier. Um, and so that one thing kind of had emergent properties into other areas
Michael Lukich: Yeah, there you go
Erick: then it created positive feedback.
So when you were saying that, I'm like, "Yeah, that's kind of, kind of how things happened there."
Michael Lukich: It's all interconnected, right? And like it's, uh, you know, I've, I, I had these like struggles when I was in my 20s of, of working where, um, you know, when, when I was in my 20s I, I wasn't really working out very, very much and, uh, I was, you know, going to lunch at McDonald's and getting, you know, multiple burgers and like, you know, a big, big, you know, a Big Coke and, uh, you know, it's, y- you can kind of, you see the, the, the, the negative side of all of that, right?
And it's, um, you know, when you start realizing that, oh, actually like the, the… as soon as I started taking care of my body and, and taking care of my health, that had positive repercussions outside of just my physical fitness, right? Like, I was more alert at work. I was more, um, right, uh, you know, and so like, uh, there, you, all of these systems are interconnected, right?
So you're making, even though you might think like, hey, that's, uh, you know, like cycling for you as an example is, is, might, might be separate from, you know, something like your podcast, right? Like, uh, you, you could probably find connections between those, right? And, and you, you do something over here and that's gonna impact something over in this seemingly in, uh, un- unconnected system
Erick: Yep. Yeah, totally agreed. So yeah, I think for me, I'm definitely gonna have to go back through and read this some more. And I, I like the idea of ma- mapping things out like that because I'm, I, I'm an auditory person for some things and a visual person for others, and so I don't really have a good visual language sometimes to kind of explain things like that. So, you know, and for me, a l- a lot of my learning takes place in journaling, so a lot of the podcast episodes, I was journaling about something, and then it was like, "Oh, hey, that would make a good idea for that." And so I've learned how to express myself well with that. But I like the idea of being able to kind of map things out in a visual sense and seeing how they're interconnected like that.
And I'm… So that's– I, I really appreciate you contacting me because that's something that I think would benefit me overall, is being able to kind of add a visual sense to it. You know, 'cause we're all that way. Sometimes we'll see a chart of something, and we'll be like, "Oh," and it, it hits better than somebody, you know, trying to explain it to you for five minutes.
You know, you see one good visualization and you're like, "Oh, I get it."
Michael Lukich: Yeah, it's, um, uh, well, well first off, thanks. That, that means, that means a lot and, um, uh, I, at least for, for me, oftentimes, you know, it's until you see something, you know, uh, mapped out or, or, or written down, oftentimes it's hard to, to pick up on all of your choices until you do kind of get it all, get it all in front of you, right?
And sometimes you don't know what you don't know. Um, and just the exercise in and of, in and of itself of, uh, you know, documenting what is, right? It, it, it can kind of, um, you know, be eye-opening to understand kind of just the different, uh, levers that you might have at your disposal to, uh, to influence something
Erick: Yeah. Kind of like a mapping of reality
Michael Lukich: Yeah.
Erick: y- you know, you can actually grok and it gives… It adds physicality to something,
Michael Lukich: Right
Erick: more concrete, which then rather than just floating around up in your head, you put it down on paper and there you go.
Michael Lukich: Yeah, I, my, my colleagues will, will, uh, at sometimes at work will, um, you know, in, in, in jest they will, uh, you know, kind of chuckle because I'm always the guy who wants to jump up on the whiteboard and start like you know, drawing something out.
Erick: Nice. Nice. All right. Well, before we go, is there anything else you wanna, you wanna let my audience know or something that you find very important that they, should take with them from today?
Michael Lukich: Um, no, I mean, I, I, look, I, I, I, you know, I'm still, like, I'm still a student of, of, of systems thinking. I'm still a student of, uh, of, of stoicism, and, um, you know, I guess I, I, I, I kind of liked the divergence of, of, or sorry, the, uh, detour that we took around, uh, you know, jumping into reading. And, and to me, I think actually, like, one of the, you know, my journey for, you know, ultimately going into, to writing this book was, uh, uh, I, I, I've, I, I've really, this, you know, the last, like, four or five years or so, um, I, I've spent a lot more time reading and journaling and, and writing, and I, I've noticed how it's just unlocked a lot in my own, you know, way in which I view the world, and it's, it's, uh, um, really stimulated me at least, you know, intellectually.
And, you know, it's something that I, you know, continue, I'm gonna continue to do, and hopefully I, you know, kind of go down the route and, and, and, and write more books. But I would just kind of highly, um, you know, uh, recommend to others who are, who are, you know, potentially considering, like, a journaling practice or, you know, trying to get into reading more is to just jump in and do it, right?
And, like, there is no, you know, to me at least, you know, what, I always, you know, kind of wondered, like, well, what are the right books to read or what are the right, uh, you know, things? And I kind of have come to the realization that there is, like, there's, there's just too much in the world to ever get, like, to read everything.
So just, like, find the things that interest you and, and, uh, you know, go d- go deep into those things.
Erick: Agreed. Agreed. And, you know, like the recommendations I threw out on my podcast when I did that thing on reading, I mean, I'm sure that some people would find them incredibly boring. I will say that your book is not, not one of those, so I
Michael Lukich: I appreciate that
Erick: And, uh, there we go. Get that in there so everybody can see it. But I like the way it's written. It's got a good conversational tone. It feels serious enough without being too deep or too heavy. You know, it's not like you're, you know, you're chewing through, uh, something, a really hard, thick steak, but it's a nice tender steak. So it's,
Michael Lukich: Oh, thank you
Erick: got substance to it, but it's also enjoyable to, to actually, uh, uh, sink your teeth into.
Michael Lukich: Thank you. I appreciate that
Erick: All right. All right. Well, thanks again for being on here. Um, that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
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