Erick: Hello friends. So this week's episode is an interview with my friend Derrick Zaworski and I'm doing kind of a pre intro here. Real quick just to kind of bring up to speed, because we had a conversation before I did the actual intro and there were some interesting things in there, so I wanted to make sure that was included.
So, I hope you enjoy this interview and thanks for listening.
Alright. Um, yeah, so I figured some of the things we wanna talk about philosophy in general. Yeah. Kinda what you're working on, what you do. Um, then I think, you know, obviously an important part of that is addiction, because that's what we talked about when you were here.
Derrick: Oh yeah.
Eric: Just how, because I never really talked about stoicism and addiction. I thought that would be an interesting kind of thing to dig into.
And, you know, luckily I've never really had to deal with that too much. Um, I noticed lately that I was drinking a lot, so I've definitely cut down on that quite a bit. Yeah. And for me, I'm lucky in that it's not the physiological addiction, it's the psychological addiction for the Yep.
For the drinking. So like when I stopped drinking, my body doesn't go, Ooh, I need to have that drink. It's just like, yeah. My brain goes, oh, I want that feeling again.
Derrick: Oh yeah, very much so. Because you wanna chase that, uh, how that course through your body, and it's kinda like you remember that in the moment, but you forget what it would be costing you down the road.
And that can get into, uh, areas of like, from like a stoic perspective of, uh, looking at the things from the perspective of like temperance, of how it's like, hey, even though in the moment this would actually feel amazing for you from a balanced perspective, you will, I actually regret this. Down the road.
Do you want to like cost that to yourself? Yeah. And that also goes into, uh, like a line from, uh, Marcus Aurelius that really, uh, resonates, uh, with that is also, uh, in a hilarious way is the quote, uh, the best revenge is to not be like that. And sometimes, like with your, when you're facing like addictions, you have to remember like, oh, the best revenge against my own addictive self is to not be that way. Right?
Erick: Yeah.
Derrick: And kind of take in that, uh, mode of like, control and focus over your life. And whether that's like, uh, recognizing in your mind that, hey, if I keep going with this, it's not actually gonna be good for me in the long run. Or like, Hey, if I keep going like this, this is gonna affect those around me as well, which I've experienced in the past, like with my various shenanigans with that.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Alright, well let's go ahead and do the introductions 'cause we already had a little bit of a discussion there, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. My name is Erick Cloward. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of stoicism and other philosophies and neuroscience and psychology and basically anything that I think will help you to become a better person and to think a little bit more clearly, because I think if you can learn how to think better, then you can live better.
So that's what this podcast is all about. And normally I try to do it within the space of a coffee break, but occasionally I do interviews and this one's going to be a longer coffee break. So on my podcast today is my friend Derek. I've known Derek for many years. We, uh, we're in the same Burning Man camp back in Portland and have since decamped from that camp.
And, uh, here Derek's down in San Diego right now, and I'm obviously in Amsterdam. And, uh, yeah, so Derek was here about a year ago, almost to the day. And Yep. Just happened, happened to post on Facebook, Hey, hey, by San Diego. Hello Amsterdam. And I'm like, I'm in Amsterdam. And you're like, what are the odds? And I'm like, well, considering I live here pretty good.
And, and uh, the place where I was staying was one metro stop away from where Derek and his wife were staying. So mm-hmm. We went and saw, uh, a Maze Amsterdam, which is kind of a cool light, uh, exhibit. My brain's flipping into Dutch and German. So, um, all good. But um, but yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. And then me and Derek ended up talking and I didn't realize how much of a stoic Derek was.
Cause he was like, oh, you're into stoicism. I'm like, well, yeah, I have a podcast on it. He is like, oh my God, how did I not know about this? And we ended up talking till way late in the evening, uh, about Stoic philosophy, addiction, uh, music obviously, 'cause we've worked on music together. Um, which has always been a lot of fun.
And, uh, yeah, so I decided that it would be good to get Derek on this podcast and I think we're gonna cover a lot of topics. So now that I've kind of introduced you, go ahead and fill in the gaps and introduce yourself and what you do and what you're about.
Derrick: Sounds good. Howdy, everybody. My name's Derek, like Eric and I is, uh, he said we go back many, many years where we were in the same Burning Man camp together.
And like we kind of were formed our friendship there and it went from there. And for me, like what I do is, uh, during like the night and, uh, another times I run a record label by the name of Road Tripping Records. And I'm also a musician that, uh, creates and produces a halftime Dr. Drum, bass drum, bass and neuro hop.
And then during the day, I'm one the hell of a tech geek. And so I'm working at all the different tech fields during the deck. In between that to help me through life. I'll be studying a lot of philosophy, mainly stoicism with like the greats like Marcus Aurelius or Seneca. And then I'll, uh, tangentially go into other philosophies as well that are in the same types of veins.
Sometimes the joke I'll make is that Stoicism is very, very spicy, Roman Zen. It just has a little bit more fun. Yep.
Erick: Yeah. I always when people are like, you know, this is very similar to Buddhism, and I'm like, yeah, stoicism is basically Greco-Roman Buddhism. Yep. You know, very much so Same, same ideas, different words. Um, a little bit different endings, but not too far different, you know, like Yeah. You know, for the, for the Buddhist it's about calming the mind to reach zen for the, uh, for the stoics.
It's about logically rationalizing your mind, so you reach those Zen states. So yeah, absolutely. Just slightly different approaches, but I think they're very complimentary and I think that anybody who who studies one really should study the other, at least, you know, tangentially because they, they are incredibly helpful.
Um, very much so. So, so what was it that, that drew you or kind of what got you into stoicism?
Derrick: Uh, honestly what really got me into stoicism was, uh, as I was kinda like, 'cause I like to research philosophies I have since I was a kid where I would be looking at like different, uh, types of religions or different theologies.
And in my later years, uh, what actually I stumbled across was probably an entry plan for a lot of people is I actually stumbled across Ryan Holiday and I was like, okay, let's watch this, see where this goes. And that was like a good six, seven years ago. And at the time I was really kinda like. Going through a massive transition in my life and uh, when I first was like going through that, my brain naturally leans into philosophy with any type of large change.
I'm like, okay, so I'm going through this. Like what actually be a philosophical tool that could, uh, help me in life at this moment. Because philosophy is very much a like giving you that set of life tools you might not otherwise think about. Kinda like, uh, if I remember correctly, it was Seneca who uh, said that philosophy shouldn't feel like you're going, this is paraphrasing.
It shouldn't feel like you're getting like a good feeling out of it. It should feel like you get, are going to the hospital and you just got out. Yeah. Especially when you're going through those moments in life. 'cause that's where it really helps you. And when you really have to like, think about those hard moments.
So I was going through a life transition at the time, six, seven years ago, and that's when I stumbled across it and really started like, uh, reading the, the obstacles the way and like, oh, this actually makes a lot of sense from like a philosophical perspective and how to approach life and how to work with the obstacles around you.
And that it's not even really the obstacle itself, it's how it is your reactions and how you feel for the obstacle. And, uh, as I read through that, that sent me down the rabbit hole. Then like reading a meditations by Marcus Aurelius, which I first actually got as a audio book because with me, uh. I prefer having an audiobook first, and then if I listen to it twice, I know I have to get the actual physical copy.
And I ended up listening to it twice in a row, really quickly being, have my mind kind of blown by just the simplicity of the, uh, writings. Especially because it's like you're listening to, when I was with the audiobook, it felt like listening to the musings of a, of this emperor Marcus who's just trying to get through all the plagues, famine and war of ancient Rome and also like deal with the high pressures of where he is at in his station.
And also the philosophy that came through that actually helped him from his teachers, whether that be Zeno, Seneca, or, uh, I always forget the very, his first, oh, Cato, the younger.
Erick: Not, and don't forget Epitctetus because he actually, Nope. Yeah. He actually mentions Epictetus in the opening. It's like, thanks to Rusticus for letting me his copy of Epictetus.
And I was like, oh, yep. Wait, here's a slave being mentioned by the, by the Emperor saying, thanks, slave.
Derrick: Yeah, seriously. Like, and it was immortalized like for all time at that point in his diary. Yeah.
Erick: Yeah. And for me it was, I heard, uh, Tim Ferris talk about, uh, William Irvine's book, you know, the, uh, A Guide to The Good Life, the Art of Stoic Joy.
Mm-hmm. And, which I think is hilarious because I was listening to Tim Ferriss, uh, a week or two ago on his latest podcast, and he mentioned the book and he totally mangled the title. And I'm like, oh no, dude, that was the book that you told me about that like. It got me into Stoicism and you forget the title and saying it, you know, he said it was one of the books that changed his life.
And I was kinda like, Tim, so disappointed.
Derrick: But, um, but I'll forgive you for long rage, but I'm disappointed in you at the same time.
Erick: Exactly. But yeah, it was, it was the thing that got me into, because mm-hmm. First Tim said, this book changed my life. Second, the, the Art of Stoic Joy. I was like, stoic joy. What?
The, that, that doesn't make any sense. I, 'cause I didn't know Stoicism was a philosophy, so I was like, okay, yep, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. And so I bought the book, um, read through it once and it didn't quite click for me. And then, so I think it was, and I thought, I thought I had bought it in 2016. I went back and looked at my Amazon thing and I actually bought it in 2011. But I bought the audiobook I think in 2016. And then I listened to it and was like, and then like things started clicking.
It was like, oh man, everything started clicking for me. And then, um. Then I, I think I listened to the audio book twice and then it was just like, okay, this is really starting to click in my head.
And then I bought, uh, Obstacle Is The Way, and then I also bought Ryan Holiday's Daily Journal thing. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I think it was then in 2018 was when I started the podcast because I was like, okay, um, I wanna practice making a podcast. What do I want to talk about? And Stoicism was what I was writing the journal in every day.
So I'm like, okay, I'll do this. And so I just started talking about stoicism and then, and I, I did it just to practice making a podcast. I'm like, I'm just gonna do this as a practice. And so then when I wanna start my real podcast, I'll know how to do it. Yep. And then it turned into a thing, so,
Derrick: oh God. Yeah.
I remember you when we were talking about it, uh, when I was over in Amsterdam, how it kind of started off as this a five minute a day practice. Kind of like how you do like a morning or evening reflection in, uh, the stoic of philosophy where you like, Hey, I'm gonna reflect on the day, or I'm gonna like.
Reflect on how I'm gonna tackle this day and kind of applying that same type of, uh, focus discipline or focus like a Roman. Uh, you can then do that every day with, uh, your stoic podcast, which you absolutely crushed for like all the way till now. And it's like, yeah, which I, I really admire that discipline, man.
It's like something that really should be practiced.
Erick: Yeah, it was wild. 'cause I did 137 days in a row. 'cause Jamie, my ex-partner was like, mm-hmm, okay, you can't quit until you do at least a hundred episodes. And I was like, okay, because you is like, you, you start things and you quit them. I'm like, yeah, you're right.
And so I, uh, so I did 137 days in a row, and as it got more and more complex, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna turn this into a weekly one. And then, you know that, that way I could dig deeper into it and take the time to really write it out rather than just like, here's this little. This little nugget is helpful, but I want to dive a bit deeper.
Right. And um, and now it's just turned into a weekly one, and then I have videos and everything. So it's gotten more complex. I've, I've moved on with it Be beautiful. But, but yeah. Yeah. But that opening was, was really, you know, 'cause people are like, so how do you actually apply this stuff in a real life?
'cause implementation of anything is challenging. And I'm like, so, well, I kind of cheat. I gotta cheat. And they're like, well, how do you cheat? And I'm like, well, I have a podcast on it. And because I'm always thinking about it and, and writing about it and talking about it. Yeah. And, you know, and producing all this content and everything about it, it becomes my default way of thinking.
And so it's really just, you know, so that was one way that really helped me to do it. But even then, you know, I'm still not perfect with it. You know, like this last year has been a real struggle and I've had some days where I've struggled with some depression and anxiety and other things like that. I found this stoicism gives me a floor, like, like, you know, I can go this far, but I'm,
Derrick: here's like, hit the bottom end, here's the line, like right here, you're gonna smack into that floor and we bounce back off of it.
Erick: Exactly.
Derrick: But also at the same time though, helpful, um, like at the same time though, it's like by having kind of like that philosophical bedrock, it allows you to kind of lean back on it and go, okay, I have my baseline philosophical principles that you can then use as like a well to lean into. And the thing is about like any philosophical discipline is like even Marcus, he would have to argue with himself to get out of bed in the morning to do the thing.
Erick: Yeah.
Derrick: And it was a lot of his, uh, uh, his journaling, which is what meditations is, was a lot of him being like, Hey, I should really think about this. Why am I like struggling with this? And actually like having those talks with himself to go through those moments. And it's like, Hey, if the Emperor Rome is doing that, like you're probably doing going to do that too.
It's like a natural part of life. And it's actually a part of the action of implementing that stoic discipline where you're like, Hey, you have to lean into your emotions and you have to lean into like understanding where these things are coming from, which is why it's actually the, uh, founding discipline for, uh, CBT, uh, cognitive behavioral therapy.
Like without Stoicism, we wouldn't have that today because a lot of that was actually that introspection. Seeing where like your mind's at where your emotions are at and that that's gonna fluctuate, uh, from day to day. And it's how you maintain that consistency throughout it all. And also reflecting on it yourself, like in like a morning reflection or evening reflection is so important for that, especially if like you're going through and you maintain that discipline.
They started looking like, okay, I've been writing for like five days about this one thought I better like start leading into this and figuring out why that's there. Which is kind of like, I find, uh, is one of the things that is a misnomer with stoicism that people have when they first look at it is the thought of like, it's supposed to be like this unfeeling type person.
It's like actually it's all about really knowing yourself and really leaning into yourself and understanding what's there and not shying away from it.
Erick: Yeah. And it's that whole idea of the more you know about your emotions, you know about yourself more, you're truly in touch with those, then the easier it is to manage those things.
I mean, absolutely. There's nothing worth, and it's funny because I did a, an episode probably about a month and a half ago where I talked about how I hit this. I had this weekend where I just hit this really deep depression. I just woke up and we just like. Low, low, low. And I just, I, I couldn't get myself to do anything.
I felt physically exhausted, mentally exhausted, and I had no idea why. And so Saturday and Sunday just basically sat on the couch and watched Netflix. That's it. Yeah. That's all I could get myself to do. And then by Saturday evening, I was feeling a little bit better, went out to a meetup and hung out with some of my friends and was just like, okay.
And he was just like, you know, and so I mentioned that in, in this podcast episode and this one guy like wrote a comment on there. He's like, I'm unsubscribing. You're a weak person so you and weakness leads to bad decisions. And I was like, okay, I think you what that tells me. I think you missed
Derrick: something.
Erick: Yeah. And my point was like, okay, well that tells me that one, you're afraid of vulnerability because if you're scared that somebody else is talking about their weakness and you are freaking out about that, that's interesting. 'cause that tells you more about you than it does about me. Um, yeah. And second, Marcus Aurelius talked about his weaknesses all the freaking time.
So if you wanna be a stoic and you're looked up to Marcus Aurelius as an example of how to be a good stoic, you failed my friend.
Derrick: Yes. You know, because you, that's actually a part of the grab bag.
Erick: Exactly. I was just like, this, this is really interesting. Somebody who's that terrified of that. But I do see that, um, you know, and this is something I've talked with other people about, that whole stoicism being co-opted by people in the manosphere, like Andrew Tate and people like that, you know?
Yeah. And it's such a, it's such a misreading of stoicism, you know? And it's, it's, it is, it took the, and, and it's awful because, you know, it's like, oh, I'm so stoic because I do this. It's like, no, you're not. No you're not. You know, and normally I don't call people out for not being stoic, but. I will in that case.
'cause I'm like, that is not what Stoicism is about. Plus stoicism is about justice and kindness and compassion towards everybody. And the way he talks about women and talks to women, I found that absolutely abhorrent. And I'm like, okay. Oh, you are just an awful person.
Derrick: Oh, 100%. And it is also, um, that kind of goes, and the joke I make for those types is that they took those types take bro, or they take stoicism and make it bro, where you're like, oh no, I had a you're, oh, go ahead.
Erick: Yeah, I had an episode called Stoicism versus Broicism.
Derrick: Yes. Like that. I'm so glad.
Erick: And it's, and it's tough because there's, you know, in, in this whole environment, it sometimes is a little bit challenging to sit down and talk about those things because, you know, when people like us who are more thoughtful about it and try to bring it up, you know, then, then.
You know, other people jump on it like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. And because they're loud and obnoxious and and rude mm-hmm. Which seems to be par for the course online. I feel like our online discourse has been getting meaner and meaner over the decades.
Derrick: Oh, very much so. It's uh, it's kind of like when you look at it, it's my thought on how online discourse has become more and more divisive over time is that it's a feedback loop between people's negative bias for negative news, for negative events.
'cause we already have that cognitive bias as humans to go, okay, I've had a negative experience, I'm gonna remember this more than a positive experience. 'cause your lizard brain is sitting there going, Hey, I don't wanna die. So you're gonna remember that forever. Well, when you have that co-opted by, uh, algorithms that have been implemented by a team of psychologists and engineers, like, make no mistake.
It's one human brain versus the, like, some of the greatest minds on the planet engineering these things. And if you think that your mind's not gonna be susceptible to that, you have another thing coming. It's already affecting society as a whole, especially 'cause it's hijacking a very base part of our cognitive function.
And so as time has worn on, I'm not surprised that we've seen a lot more of like that negative bias correction just coming out into society. Which is why I think like having philosophical bedrock is so important when you're interacting with the world. Because if you don't have that so philosophical bedrock for you to land on. When you're interacting with these things and remind yourself that, Hey, I should have kindness, I should have compassion, I should have temperance, I should have justice in this world.
Then if you don't have those, oh, you're in for a ride, to have your mind just hijacked by just the high octane algorithms that are in our world that just hijacked those thoughts and feelings. And then you'll find yourself just like all of a sudden, why have I been doom scrolling? And why do I feel absolutely depressed after this session?
I just thought, I thought, I thought I was gonna laugh at 30 CAD videos, but instead I've seen like war, famine, disease, my friends dying, like all that type of stuff that's on any algorithmic infinite feed. Like yeah, that's definitely going to hijack you. And it will definitely, as, uh, there have been many studies out there that like, from what I've seen, that show that where it's like, hey, people actually have a measurable negative effect from coming away from an algorithmic feed that has hijacked your mind and caused you to go into that negative space.
And that's true of, uh, any of the major social platforms and also even YouTube. Where like if you are not careful with like the rabbit hole of YouTube, you will see like there is a, uh, there's a great, great, uh, standup special by Ronnie Chang and, uh, he's an SNL uh, comic, and he, uh, his special for the, the most recent one, uh, on Netflix, like, has a great line from it where he is talking about how, like you have, there's this very specific algorithmic rabbit hole that happens particularly that's really particularly unkind to, uh, fresh males who are trying to improve themselves and are in that mode where it takes them from, I wanna improve myself straight to six weeks later, they're on January 6th and it's because it goes down that manosphere rabbit hole and it like, it makes kinda like that joke, but it's, it is.
Actually very real. And I've seen people go down there and it's like, oh, you didn't have the right philosophical tools to guard your mind against this. Yeah. And it's not even your own fault.
Erick: Yeah. And we are incredibly susceptible to peer pressure on all sorts of things, wanting to belong to community and mm-hmm.
You know, and, and the thing is, you know, some, it's, I was listening to something the other day, um, I think it was, I, it was, I, Ezra Klein was talking to somebody. I wish I could remember who it was, but he talked about how we often assumed that the other side, whatever that other side might be, you know, the people we see in opposition to us, whether that's politically or philosophically or whatever, just don't, they're, they're either stupid or they don't have the right information and, you know, and so we have a hard time.
Seeing how they could be so dumb in their belief. You know? That's the way we look at it. It's like, how can you be so idiot, so stupid? You're looking at the wrong news, you're looking at all these things, right? It's like, well, but even so, I mean, you know, I was thinking about this and I was like, okay. No, it's that they have a belief system that they've set up that works for them, and that is, it's not, and they think the same thing about us.
You know, they, yeah. You know, they think the same thing about you. 'cause otherwise, if they didn't, they'd just be on your side. Yeah. So I had to kind of pause and think about that. I'm like, okay, because I grew up in the Mormon church and I believed it Yeah. For a long time. And then, but it still took me decades to finally reconcile and get out of that and reach that point where I could first off look at evidence that was, you know, showing that the church had lots of problems.
Oh yeah. And, you know, especially doctrinally, even though I, I, I felt, I felt like it, I would find problems and I would just try and gloss over 'em because I'm like. Oh no, it's just, it's just a misunderstanding. Or, you know, the cognitive dissonance, the double blind that comes with that.
Derrick: Oh, very much so.
Where your brain starts trying to rationalize the overarching theology that's been placed on you. And like, especially when that's when you've been like in there for so long and that's your dogma, you don't realize it yet.
Erick: Yeah. And so once I finally, you know, I reached that point where my ex-wife was like, can I, I'm not gonna church anymore.
It doesn't work for me. It's, you can still go if you want. And for that, the whole time we had been married, I'd been on and off in the church. Like I would go for mm-hmm. A year and then not go for a year. Um, I decided I'd rather be out cycling, so, and I started doing that. And then after a few months she was like, so when are you gonna officially leave?
Leave? And I'm like, I don't know why this is so hard. What is this? And I, I couldn't figure out why it was so hard. And then she gave me this book by Martha Beck, and her dad was Huey Nibley, who was the chief apologist for the church for like 50 years. So basically Oh wow. Church royalty. Yeah. So church royalty in that aspect.
And she ended up leaving the church and she documented her whole journey and just basically uncovered a lot of the dirty laundry about the church that I had no idea about. Mm-hmm. And I went, oh, okay. One, these, it's, it's very tribal. This is my tribe. This is my clan. Yeah. So that's one reason why it's hard to leave.
Two, once I started understanding a lot of the dirty laundry, I was like, oh. So the church was based on a bunch of lies by a conman and a pedophile. Okay. I can.
Derrick: Yep.
Erick: Okay. I can leave. I gave this an honest try. And the reason why it doesn't work is because it's based on lies and there are good things about the church.
I mean, a lot of the core principles I think are great, and the way that they focus on the family are great, but there's just a lot of pressure and a belief in a dogma that I don't find to be true. And so I, you know, and so once I, so people are like, well, have you found another church? Or Would you ever come back?
And I'm like, I can't unsee what I've seen. I can't make myself believe something that I, that doesn't make sense to me. I never did.
Derrick: No, not at all. Especially 'cause like, it's kind of like, uh, that moment where you have, um, the veil lifted in that regard, and you'll have that knowledge given to you. You're never gonna be able to unsee that.
A great, uh, like likening to that is, uh, there's a concept in that comes from Mexico, uh, called the three Mexican deaths. Uh, have you heard of it?
Erick: Mm.
Derrick: So, uh, in this concept, uh, the three Mexican deaths go, the first death is when you realize you're going to die and you have that knowledge given to you.
Irrevocably, you're never gonna forget that. The second Mexican death is when you physically die and you're no longer on this physical plane. And the third Mexican death is when the last person with the last memory of you finally dies on this planet. That's your third Mexican death. And it's why in de Muertos, you see a lot of people have photos of all their past family members because they're trying to prevent the third Mexican death from, um, occurring.
And it's their way of keeping them living on in memory. And, uh, it kind of like that type of irrevocable knowledge kind of goes back to like the first Mexican death where it's like, I can never unsee this. I know that I'm going to die. Which goes back to me mental moori your mortal. And when you have that with like a church or theology, you can't unsee that at all.
It's kinda like how some people also encounter that with Catholicism and all the stuff that's in there, even though there's gray, gray things in there, some you can't reconcile some of the things.
Erick: Yeah, yeah. And that's, so for me, kind of bringing it back around was just the, when I looked at my own tra in my own process of, you know, what I believed, excuse me, what I believed for so long and what it took for me to change that belief system.
You know, it's like, okay, I can understand why these people, you know, they're, they're looking for a belief system and once they have it, um, it's very hard to change that. And for pretty much so, and for a lot of people, you know, in the manosphere and they, you know, the whole incels and everything like that, it's really sad because.
Rather than helping them to find a way to deal with the things that are, they're struggling with, and especially in today's society. Like, I mean, it's, oh yeah. My generation was really the last generation that got to, that had reasonably affordable schooling. And even then it was really tough. Like I, I came out, if I had taken student loans out and gone to a four year college, I would've had probably about 80,000 in, in loans.
But I was able to get out and get a decent job right away. But I went to public, I went to uh, uh, community college for two years, then went to, did my, my last two years at a private school. Mm-hmm. So I came out with 22,000 in debt, which I still owe like 3000 on I call, I call it my school tax. Um, yeah. But, you know, but the thing was, is that mine was really the last generation that, that was able to kind of hit that American dream because like, I went to a private school, which was twice as, the reason why I had 22,000 was because the school I went to wasn't.
Like University of Utah, if I'd gone there, it would've cost me less than I, I would've come out with maybe 10,000 in debt. Yeah. So can you imagine going to a four year university, you know, a big university and come out, you know, if I'd gone all four years and only have, you know, 30,000, 35,000 in debt, you can't do that.
Derrick: Good luck. No, you're probably gonna come out with like 80 k, a hundred K and Exactly. It's uh, it's kinda like with a, another great comedian Neil Brennan who talks about that. That goes, alright, hear me out. Imagine going into a bank and this is your business plan. Alright, I'm gonna get really drunk for four years and then I'm gonna come out with a degree in sociology.
Now can I get that a as a loan? They wouldn't do it. Yeah. And it's kind of like that whole thing of like. Seeing how that's grown into, like my, into my generation, the generations that come after us of, okay, if you wanna get an education in the United States, you're looking at like a crippling amount of like lifetime debt.
Unless like, I mean, basic, you go in and work through it.
Erick: Yeah. And the, the worst part is that it's not even dischargeable in bankruptcy. So if you, Nope. And it was a law that I think, I can't remember if it was Reagan or somebody put in, it was, you know, the Republicans were in charge and they're like, okay, we're not gonna allow you to get rid of this.
Companies can declare bankruptcy, but students can't. And it's just like, oh. And so, I mean, I look at that and I see this despair that's going on. And so we've got, you know, we've got all the financial issues going on, we've got all the issues of these, these kids have grown up on phones, so they don't know how to be social.
They don't know how to flirt with a woman. They don't know how to charm a woman because. Yeah. You know, they're used to, if everything's on demand, they can just, well, why can't I get a girl on demand? And it, you know, uh, but
Derrick: this should be right here. I should be able to swipe right. Right. Yeah. I should be able to just swipe right.
And she
Erick: shows up and I get my girl, and it's like, no, you have to work for it. And that, that ability, I mean, I, I really appreciate, uh, Scott Galloway, 'cause he talks about this a lot, and I don't know if you follow him. Mm-hmm. Professor G and, and he's just like, the impetus for sex should be a big driver for you to go out and get your shit together, learn how to woo a woman and make mistakes.
You're gonna make mistakes and you're gonna Yeah. You know, it was like, the best thing that can happen to you is that you go to parties, you meet people, you have some bad encounters, but they have great, they're great stories to tell later on. Yeah. And you make lots of mistakes and you find someone that you're crazy can work with, and through that whole process, you get to learn these things and to become somebody who knows how to pick up a woman. Yep. You know, it's like, I mean, the other, go ahead.
Derrick: Oh, I was gonna say, the other side of it too is that people will forget is like, hey, not, don't, uh, forget. Not only are you going out there learning how to pick up, uh, someone as a partner, they're learning how to do it too.
This is a two-way street, and so like, fail together. That's how humans work. We've been doing it for like over, what is it, 600,000 years We've been failing forward super hard. And that's ever since we ca like came through as monkeys and kept going like, yeah, you've been doing this for a while now. It's a part of the human experience, the obstacles. We've been doing this the way my friend.
Erick: Exactly. Exactly. You know, and that's the whole thing. It's like if you are having a trouble, if you're having trouble flirting with women, go out and try and flirt with women and you're gonna fail badly. And then you're gonna be like, oh, but she laughed at this.
Okay, lemme try another thing. Oh, she laughed at that and then she kind of smiled at me and she touched my arm. Oh, okay. And so getting out there and trying these things, but again, like you said, it's also look on the other side of it is that I think part of it, the problem is that they, they look back, uh, you know, 50, 60 years ago when it was the man's choice of who they were going to marry for the most part.
Yeah. And so, because women didn't have a lot of say in a lot of rights and things, and for a lot of women, they just married the first man they could to get outta their houses, have at least a little bit of independence. And so have, have a bank account. They look at that. Yeah. It just ridiculous things like that.
Like, my grandma couldn't get a bank account without my grandpa. It's like, what? Yeah. And she was smarter than he was. Makes no sense. But yeah.
Derrick: Oh yeah. Very much so.
Erick: So it's that whole thing of, of, you know, I, I think that there's this, you know, so they want to blame something on us, so they blame feminism for it. And it's like, okay, how is giving women the same rights that we have make things worse off for you?
Derrick: Yep. It's like, is there a power imbalance here? Like, what's going on?
Erick: Yeah. And that's kind of my whole thing, but for them, they see it as, oh, it's turned women against men. They've all become man haters. It's like, no, feminism is about women saying, we wanna be paid as much and we wanna be treated with respect.
Yeah. It's pretty simple. And that's it. And that's, that's really, that's what feminism is about. And so I think it's, I think it's interesting, but it comes down to they wanna blame things outside of themselves of why they're not succeeding. So it's easier to blame women for why they're not being successful with women, you know?
Derrick: It's either to blame, like a particular segment of society for your woes, whether that be like, Hey, you should blame in the manosphere, you should blame women. You should blame these societal structures that are in place that are aligned against you. And it's like, oh, actually no, maybe you should look inside yourself first.
Like actually like lean into yourself, become like actually familiar with yourself and understand that, hey, maybe there's some things that I've like inherited from my own life experience, my own life baggage that I should probably open up sometime. 'cause it smells back there. Like what's going on. And that's a part of like that discipline.
Erick: There was a, a, a reporter, very attractive, uh, I can't remember her name, but I saw, I read an article she had written, um, and she talked about how for years she only dated people on the far right wing. You know, hung out with, you know, basically guys in the manosphere and other things like that. And she was just like, yeah, they don't know how to talk to women.
They don't know how to be charming. They're angry and they blame everybody else. And it's like, and they're not, they're not mean people. They're, they're just frustrated with life and, you know, and so she's just like, they, rather than looking at themselves and taking responsibility for that, they just want somebody else to blame and, and hoping that, and, but the thing is, is if you blame things outside of yourself, then you are giving away that power because if it's outside of you, then it can't be fixed.
Derrick: Yep.
Erick: Whereas if you look yourself and you take responsibility for it. Yeah, exactly. And like for me, you know, when I was divorced, uh, so I got divorced in 2006. You know, I had grown up Mormon and dated Mormon, all of that. And suddenly I wasn't Mormon and I was single again. It was like, okay, I've gotta go out and figure out how to.
How to date and do this, this is kind of scary and interesting, and here we go, you know? Yeah. But I figured my way through it, and I made plenty of mistakes. I, I said a lot of stupid things, but mm-hmm. In doing so, I learned how to, how to be reasonably charming and reasonably funny, and to, you know, attract women and, and, and have fun and, and create relationships like that. Even when I failed in a lot of those relationships, I still was able to get out there, and I keep trying and I haven't…
I've taken a break for a while as I've been kind of, you know, resetting my life and, you know, changing a lot of things. But I know that when that time comes because that's a skill that I've, developed.
And I know that when that time comes and I'm like, okay, I want to get more, a little more serious about this, then it's something that I can do. And so I think that, you know, I feel for 'em. I really do. Mm-hmm. Because I mean, they've been, theirs is the first generation that will not be wealthier than their parents.
Derrick: Yeah.
Erick: And most likely, most of them, a good portion of them, if not, you know, a, a giant portion will not ever, ever be able to afford a house.
Derrick: Yeah. Especially being that type of anger when that sets in, because it's like, uh, a part of it comes from the idea of, oh, there's this system outside of myself that's taken away my ability to exist within the classical models of society.
Erick: Yeah.
Derrick: And that anger then will become frustration, which then will start, be bleeding out onto the rest around you, which kind of come. Uh, one of the things that comes to mind from like a stoic perspective is the idea and the philosophy that you are a citizen. You are, you should take part in the world around you.
If you wish to see the change in the world, be the change you wish to see. Which brings back that element of agency of like, Hey, I actually have the power within myself. If I had to look at it from the perspective of a dichotomy of control of, hey, this is like, uh, what I actually have the ability to control in my life.
And one of them is I can participate in the world around me. I can participate as a, uh, citizen in society and look at what I can do in my community to affect change, however small that may be in like the grand molecular scheme of things, but it's still something you can do. And the beautiful thing about that part of stoic philosophy is when you look at it from that citizen participation perspective, is the more people who participate and the more people who actually get involved in just their community around them.
The better actually that will be made for all those who like interact with that. And so it's kinda like a part of that, uh, action oriented, part of stoic philosophy of, hey, actually practice in the world around you. 'cause this philosophy's meant to be practiced. It's not meant to just be purely studied. A lot of the stoics were all about like implement, learn from that.
See what happened in your mind from implementing that and come back like, see what happened within inside yourself and reflect on that. And by actually going out into a society as a citizen and interacting with society like that, you'll actually find that you have more power than you realize to affect the world around you.
And even to the point of like. Let's go back to the Manosphere example where we're talking about, Hey, we should go out and talk to people, go talk to women, go talk to those who you're attracted to, right? Yeah. Part of that is you're interacting with community around you and you're gonna be failing forward pretty hard and you're gonna be reflecting upon yourself realizing that you said something that was utterly cringe.
You don't know why it was cringe, but it was cringe. So embrace your cringe, my friend, and see why you feel that way and then you'll come back and be a better part of society. It's just what it is. And also by continuing that is how we also better those around us. 'cause then you can pass on wisdom, 'cause wisdom you gain from actual experience in the world around you.
There's also a larger part of stoic philosophy is actually practicing wisdom. And then realizing the bits that you missed and come back and be like, Hey guys, I need to like quickly talk about this now that I've sussed it out. So here's the thing.
Erick: Yeah. Well for me it's, it comes a lot back to the whole idea of you may not be to blame for what's going on, but you are responsible for changing the situation because you can be like, oh, society's to blame, or these people are to blame, or women are to blame.
And it's like, okay, so then what? Yep. Well, they should change. Good luck with that. You know? Good luck. Go ahead. Go ahead. Make them change. You know, and you know, and it's, you know, it's that, you know, I know they say insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I think insanity is expecting somebody else to, to fix something to make you happy.
Derrick: Yes. 100%.
Yeah. I, I think that they both fit in with that. And so I think that the more, and I, and I thing is, is that as I'm talking about this, I don't want people who are listening to this who maybe find themselves in that situation to feel like I'm belittling them. I'm trying to empower them. I'm trying to help them to see that they have this control and that they have absolutely the ability to step up and do these things.
It's scary, it's frustrating. It's, you know, but the thing is, is think of it like this. If you're a man out there who's in his twenties or maybe even a teenager listening to this, women like leaders do what leaders do. They don't boss people around. They lead people. They're like, Hey, let's go do this cool thing.
Let's try and be this. They try and step up and bring the action and bring things to happen, you know? Mm-hmm. They try and create their lives. They're creating things going on. They're actually taking action in their lives, which is why then people go, oh, he's doing something fun. Let's go follow him. And so be a leader.
Step up and, and create things. Have a party. Invite people over that you don't know. If you're out on the town and you meet somebody like, Hey, you guys seem cool, why don't you, we're gonna have a party at our place. You know, just, I've gotten invited to random parties before of people that I just happened to meet once or twice and like, Hey, you're cool.
Let's go. You know? Yeah. And, you know, go to festivals. Go, but just go up and talk to people and take responsibility for your life. So if you, even if you, the only person you are leading is yourself because you are choosing the actions you want to take, and you are taking responsibility for a group of one that's still being a leader. So get out there and do stuff.
Derrick: Yep. Very much so. And also, by doing that, you'll find out way more about yourself than you'll realize. A part of being that leader in your life is that you are learning from anything that you've interacted with. You're learning like, Hey, I actually can talk to more people than I realize I can talk to.
Or, Hey, I know that actually I can help people more than I realized I can help people. And the only way you'd find that out is if you're actually interacting with the world around you and actually going out there, like being with people, leading people going like, Hey, do you guys wanna go on a hike? All right, cool.
I'm getting like 15 of us together. Let's go. And then like you also learn like from the interaction of how all that coordination happens, like the different personalities involved, and it makes it more of like a human wholesome experience that, uh, actually allows you to grow.
Erick: Yeah. Well the other thing it also does is it gets you outta the anger. You know, as you start working with other people you, and get and hanging you around other people. And hopefully people who are different than you, you start to mm-hmm. See different sides of the world and you stop being angry at the world because I know that Yeah. That's something that a lot of these people feel, they feel like they haven't gotten a fair shake and so, or they feel like somebody else is to blame.
It's like, you know, there are, there are, you know, we need to stop fighting each other and make friends with as many people as we can, you know, build coalitions, you know? Yeah. With all kinds of different people. And that's one of the things that I love about Burning Man, is it's, you know, I met so many different types of people from so many different places and, you know, yeah.
But it was all with a very similar vibe of just like, Hey, let's, let's try and be cool to each other. Let's take care of ourselves and then take care of everybody else around us as best we can. Yeah. And that was just a very much kind of how I want, you know, I, I. I really enjoyed that tribe and that vibe.
Derrick: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Erick: So speaking of Burning Man, and this is one of the other things I wanted to make sure that we have time to cover. Yeah. So when you were here, we talked about addiction and how you've basically were headed down some pretty dark paths and how you were able to turn that around. Yep. So maybe, maybe give us a little more insight into that.
I mean, obviously you don't have to give us all the dirty details, but,
Derrick: oh, yeah. Uh, so with my journey with addiction to kind of give like also a little bit background of how it comes down to my family tree, uh, on both sides of my family, uh, there are a lot of addictive tendencies. And so because of that, I kind of got like a double whammy and just out the gate.
And with that, my brain, one of the things I've had to learn over the years is that it has a high predilection to addiction. There's a double-edged sword to it is that the underlying thing with addiction is that your brain auto is way more sensitive to dopaminergic response. And so anything that your brain goes, oh my God, does it, gimme the dopamine, let's hit the gas pedal, and that will can go many ways.
If it's with learning, that person with that brain config will learn so much about a given subject that it's not even funny in a short amount of time. Or they'll become like amazing at knowing about an X like situation or like an X culture because that's what they delved into. That's what they became a part of because of that part of their brain.
Erick: Right.
Derrick: The other part of it that becomes the more dangerous part is that just as you can addict. Too many different things. You have that substance addiction that comes up. You'll have like, even just baseline, like video game addiction, anything that's really of a high dopaminergic activity. Right? And with my own journey with it, uh, from just my own family, predilections, they would like start off with me.
Like, I remember when I was younger, I played video games for like hours and hours and hours nonstop. And like my, I would literally forget to eat, drink, sleep, and like you would just, like, you'd see me and I'd be like looking like a vampire, having not seen the sun for like a couple days and it wasn't pretty.
And like, uh, later on in life, what that transition into is like, uh, for example, with me, it would be the, my love for dance music culture. Like I have a deep, deep love for it. A lot of it comes from like community, the tribalism of it, and my own brain spread elections. It's just something I've had to like just realize over the years and then as time went on, as I would like get deeper into different cultures and different things, I would see and recognize in myself I pattern of like, oh, because of what I've seen already with my past and because of what I'm already seeing within myself, I'm seeing that my brain is starting to attach to different like substances that are not good for me and I would not realize it until way later.
And a part of it that really helped with like learning stoicism is kind of like that idea of dichotomy of control. What is it do I have that I have control over in my life? And also recognizing that. A part of the addiction monkey or gorilla is going, cool. I know you're there. I know that sometimes this thing, if I do not catch it in time, will take the reins and I have to really pay attention to that.
So I have control there. 'cause a part of the thing is, uh, with addiction that people sometimes don't realize is that your dopaminergic system is really good at hijacking your thoughts if you stop paying attention to it. And as soon as that happens, it goes cool. I'm just gonna hit the gas pedal over here, buddy.
And once your consciousness returns, I'm gonna be 50 miles down the road and you're gonna wonder what the fuck happened. And like, and I've also seen that with my friends too because, uh, in the. Music industry and entertainment industry, you'll see a lot of those types of personalities in there and how it's, uh, you'll see that you'll recognize it for what it is, and sometimes you'll be able to help those people.
Other times not, it really just depends on the person. And a part of also kind of practicing getting through that is helping those people as well. Being like, Hey, I see myself in you. I know where that is. It's not a good place. Let's see where we can go. And, uh, with my own journey in that, like with, like, aside from dichotomy of control, the other thing that really helped me is just the concept of Memento more.
Remember, you are mortal because the thing is, is that with any type of addiction tendency, you're playing with that mortality. And you have to go, cool. In this moment, what I'm seeing around me, if I continue this, will this be the death of the current me? Because there's not only just the physical death, there's also the death of the person you were before.
And if you let something take over you, it will completely reshape you as a human. And you have to be able to recognize that and go, cool. At this particular death I might not want to go through because there are some good ones where, hey, you get new knowledge, you get reborn as a person. We've seen this countless times in history where someone goes through like a near-death experience and all of a sudden they come out to the other side like, yeah, I'm a new human.
I don't need that. Or like with me, I've had, I had a couple of realizations at one point where I'm like. If I keep going, I'm gonna die like really quickly. Yeah. I need to just remove myself and go, 'cause if I don't, I'm not gonna be here. And like, that's just something you have to recognize. And it's a very potent realization of like, when you have mortality show up for you in a very, very rude way and go, Hey buddy, how you doing?
So I've been lurking in the back this entire time. Are you sure you wanna go right now? And then that completely reshapes your view and like having gone through that and also come out the other side from a couple of different ones. Uh, suffice to say, uh, I've, it is kind of like you become. Very, very familiar with your own just minds predilections because you'll actually like be able to feel in your head.
You're like, oh, now that I'm very familiar with my addictive tendencies, and like high Tane just triggers for that. You can feel it in your brain when all that kicks on or else you're like, oh wow, like now that I'm familiar with this, I feel that dopaminergic rush. I feel that kick in. Do I want this around this particular thing?
Is this healthy for me? Because I know if I let loosen that grip and that discipline and focus, things can get hairy if it's unhealthy for me. And that can be for like a drug that can be for a activity. Or, and, or that can even be for like a community that might not be so good for you. 'cause we always have to keep that in mind.
And like the other part of it is like that I've also had to like really get familiar with over the years is, uh, I have ADD, it's just a thing. And a part of that is that ADD also increases your predilection to addiction because of the do it's more high octane dopaminergic systems. Uh, there's a, uh, thing with it that's called, uh, interest-based nervous system.
So interest-based nervous system is where someone with this particular brain config, uh, when they're interested in something and it increases all of their dopaminergic systems. It allows them to really get into something if they're interested because all of their dopamine of fires, their brains there, all that stuff.
But as soon as it's not something that's interesting to that person's nervous system, good luck having a fire. And that can also come into play of like, hey, I am kind of like depressed, right? Because nothing's interesting to me. I am bored. Right? And then that person, because they have a lower do, uh, dopamine in their body will go into a depression cycle.
They'll have just be sitting there because their muscles are not getting as much as they need. All of that stuff. And like that, when that, you couple that with like substance addiction as an example, it becomes pretty dangerous. 'cause then it's like, oh, how do I operate right without doing X, Y, and Z at Z, whatever it, it may be for that person's particular 411.
How do they get through that? Right. And having been there myself, it fucking sucks. But yeah, you learn a lot about yourself through that. Like I had to learn about like my own emotional predilections when like I was going through that where I'd be like, oh wow, like right now I should lean into myself and listen to myself.
I'm having like the one hell of an anger monkey back there. Why is that there? Like is this literally just fueled by something like, is this being fueled by like a lack of chemicals? Is this being fueled by a life circumstance? Like what is this? And without actually leaning into yourself, you wouldn't be able to figure that out.
You just blame the world around you. Kind of like how we're talking about earlier. And so with my own journey through that. And leaning into like, uh, Marcus' meditations, the obstacles, the way it really helped kind of just make it through so that I wouldn't be like in those moments they actually go, Hey, you have control in yourself in here.
And also recognizing that disciplines built up over time. I mean, even the stoics, they had to go through and do their daily disciplines, their daily rituals of, Hey, I need to build this muscle, muscles will fail. But it's that you keep working that muscle over time and also recognize that sometimes you need a community that's a part of like the whole going back to being a citizen.
'Cause a part of being a citizen is connecting to your communities around you and those communities helping you through. Like an example would be I was a part of a music producer community that I'm still all really good friends with for a very long time. And like that community by being a, a citizen in that community also helped me dramatically just get through all of those like addictions I was going through at the time because I was able to go, Hey, I need a place to put this addictive energy.
Because the thing is that with addictive energy is that it's still going to be there even if like it's not being focused on one particular thing. So you might as well give it a place to be that's healthy and direct it. Because like with someone with my particular brain config, if you just let it sit there, it's going to be one hell of a monkey that gets into trouble.
And you have to be like, all right, gor. Where you going? All right, where do I need to direct you? And that's where great things can come from that where like, you'll see some people with those who are particular configs, like I'll use myself as an example. Uh, they'll start companies because they need to put that energy somewhere.
Like, uh, where other for, you know, folks like Tim Ferris, for folks like, uh, uh, the guy Chris from Modern Wisdom, those folks, they took that energy and put it there and focused like a Roman. With myself. I started a record label, aside from my music project, was like, Hey, this energy has to go somewhere.
Let's put it here. I think this would be good. And also like, uh, like another great friend of mine who's gone through the same type of journeys in a different way, uh, my friend Taylor, uh, his music project is, uh, OC. He like took his like potentials and energies in that and just directed it towards like starting a collective, which is an awesome music collective by the name of Applecross.
And by focusing it there, he was able to really like, help himself through, connect with community and be a citizen in the community he created because he focused that energy. And a lot of that is kind of also understanding that that's within your control is that direction of addictive energy, because that will still be there inside your mind and your dopaminergic systems.
It's a lot of, how do I direct it? Yeah. What's the control I have for that?
Erick: Yeah. Well it was like, uh, this brings up an interesting thing I did, uh, I think it was two episodes ago, uh, talking about free will. Mm-hmm. Do we actually have free will and. There through some studies, they found that by analyzing the brain and having people make choices, they can actually predic what the person's going to choose up to 60 or 70% before the person's constantly aware of what they're choosing.
And so, you know, it's the idea of well then do we have free will or not? And you know, and I, I still kind of go back and forth on that, but I think we have a monochrome of free will. And even if we don't have direct conscious, origination, free will of, of, you know, this is the thing that, that I'm going to do.
And it may just be that we have an impulse of what we want to do. Mm-hmm. You know, because we're habit machines and so we either Oh yeah, go, yes, I'm gonna do that, or we're gonna say, no, I'm gonna veto that. And so rather than worrying about am I originating this thing, you know, which, you know, if you want to get into a little bit more metaphysical on that, it's like, if.
If you think about it, you know, everything, everything that happens, like every thought that you had, had something which caused you to think of that thought. So there's always a precondition of something that happened before the thing happened. You know, every, like the causal chain, if you will. Mm-hmm. So, and that's why people say that we don't have free will because everything has a, you know, is, is just an action, reaction, reaction, action, action, action, action.
A long chain like that. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. And then other people are like logos, but no. Yeah. But then other people are like, well, no, I have, I, I can choose what I want to think about. I can choose these things. And it's like, okay, but the only way you could choose that wasn't a, in a intercostal chain would be pure randomness.
And because you don't have control over the randomness, then you don't have free will either. So I was like, so, oh yeah, but that was, you know, but that's on a, on a bigger thing and I'm not sure how to resolve that. But the conclusion that the Stokes came down to is. Look, you can't necessarily control your first impressions.
You can't necessarily control the urges that you have, but you can either ascent to them or you can negate them. You can veto them. Yeah. Or you can direct 'em in another way. So you basically, you, you know, it's like some you, some you approve, some you, you put on hold or you point in a different direction.
Others, you just reject outright. Yeah. And that's what the Stokes came up with 2000 years ago. It's called Impressions and ascent. And I was just like, yeah. So even if we, even if it's not true, and even if we do have free will, treating the impulse as something that maybe you don't originate, but you just, it's the thing that happens.
But where you have free will is in two places. One where you can veto or, or approve. And in the long term development of habits too. To put systems in place to guide you in the right direction. Like you said, you can choose that direction you want to go. Yeah, and I think that, you know, there's the short-term direction, which is yes, no on this.
Then there's the long-term direction, which is where let's go, let's slowly move things this way, you know, and practice those habits that we need in order to make sure that, that I'm getting to where I want to go. Make sure that I don't put myself in situations where I'm tempted to do things that I, I know I shouldn't do because they're gonna be bad for me.
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and that's the idea of, and that's the idea of moderation and temperance. You know, some people will say, well, I'll do this moderately, you know, but sometimes moderation means that something should not be done.
Yes. Because it can't be, it can't be an either or thing, you know? It can't be, oh, I'm just doing, doing this.
Like I saw a thing on Fentanyl the other day on Kurzgesagt. If you've ever watched that on YouTube, it's fantastic channel.
Derrick: Oh, I love Kurzgesagt, dude. It's so good. Yeah,
Erick: So they did one on fentanyl and they just, they just explained how ridiculously addictive it is and how cheap it is and how much harder it is on your body than even heroin.
Yeah. It's like, they're like, heroin's bad for you, but these are the good things of heroin. This is terrible. Yeah. This is fentanyl. This is just plain, this is like, it's garbage heroin. They're like, this is just like the dregs of heroin. And it's, and it explained the difference between what happens when you take heroin versus with fentanyl.
And it was just like, oh, wow. I mean, yep. Yeah. It's terrifying. So that's just like a Yeah. And so from, and I read an article the other day talking about, um, Portland's, uh, fentanyl issues. And I was back there last summer. Oh yeah. And I was walking along, uh, I was walking like Jefferson, I think, and I saw three people just sitting on this, uh, step of some old.
Building and just
Derrick: like,
Erick: yeah, two of 'em are crashed out and one of 'em was nodding like this, like, yeah, just about fall over. And I was just like, somebody said, oh yeah, that's the fentanyl fade. Yep. I was like, wow. But it's just got really bad there and I, it's really, really sad. And then as things economically are challenging and then, you know, um, as people become more disconnected from each other as we get more and more polarized di visibly, I think that, I think that's part of why, it's why I keep doing this, is that I'm trying to help people to think and help people to realize that the things that we're missing are the things, you know, you can Are the, the core ethical things they aren't.
Yeah. The technology we're missing. The technology is great because it allows me to disseminate my message, but it's just a tool. But if we didn't have all this technology, the things that would matter in life where like am. Becoming wise, am I treating people well? Am I being brave and stepping up and doing the things I know I need to do?
Derrick: Yeah. And am
Erick: I practicing discipline in my life
Derrick: and like, do I have the courage to embrace all of that?
Erick: Yeah.
Derrick: And also it's kinda like it's into the whole thing of, um, now more than ever, we need more of that philosophical bedrock that we've been talking about. 'cause like the more you have that bedrock, the easier it'll be for you to tackle the things that come down into your life.
It's kinda like, um, to go back to the idea of free will, right? Uh, one, uh, individual I used to watch a lot, uh, put it like this. We now, if we have like, uh, free reign over all our decisions, that is still being proven out. But the thing that can be proven out is that if you look at your mind as a formula, right?
When you have a formula, as soon as you plug into things, you have an output. But the area you do have control over is how you actually modify your formula over time. 'cause by modifying the formula is how you have a different output when you come to that situation again. And you can change that through discipline, through participating in community.
That affects how you have discipline. Because being as like that citizenry, uh, by incorporating a community into your life that's healthy for you will over time change the formula of your mind. So then when you encounter those interactions, those decisions. You have a different output, which is why it's so important to make sure that the communities you participate in are good for you because they will actually change the formula of your mental, of your mind's construct or whatever that might come out the other side.
Whether that be like, Hey, when I encounter x uh, situation, I'm gonna do X, Y, and Z Now, because this community I'm a part of has given me the x, uh, more of framework, whether that be the stoic community where we're all practicing stoics and we go, Hey, we're here for each other. These are like how we would look at it through the ethical moral lens of a stoic, uh, system.
Or if someone's in a more like theological community, they rely on the formulas given to them from their theological community for how they proceed in the world. That's so important to take into account, or even like in our own personal experiences, aside from stoic communities, we have our Burning Man communities that we are a part of really heavily, and those come with their own moral frameworks of how you proceed and participate in the world.
And some of them are amazing, others depends. And it's still that formula that's been given to you that you choose in that moment, aside from also having that power of the veto that we have of, hey, I accept, reject, or redirect, right? That also comes in addition to that formula. And so by surrounding ourselves with individuals, we get to also choose that as being a citizen, right?
Where we go, Hey, a part of being a citizen in society is I choose those communities and those people I wanna be a part of my life. And also understand that by having that choice. I'm also choosing the moral frameworks that are gonna be acceptable in my life over time. 'cause we are influenced by those we have around us, but we have a choice as to who we want to keep in our lives and how they want.
We want them to affect us. And that can go from like whether I'm like looking at the artist landscape, being like, Hey, I love this artist. I'd love to interact with them. I'd love to like hang out with them all that. And also recognize that, hey, when we're interacting with each other, we affect each other.
We're also affecting our moral, uh, formulas as well. How do I want this to proceed and how do I want to proceed with this in an ethical, moral standard from like a stoic perspective with me or from in their perspective? They might have a different thing that's more from Eastern philosophy where they're looking at from more like a Hindus or Buddhist or Zen perspective.
Or even more modern theological uh, frameworks, depending on where they're coming from. And so having that like moral framework, I think is very important for us to be able to choose like, Hey, this is the formula I want to adopt and change in my mind so that when I encounter a situation, I know where, what the output's gonna be.
A great example from like a stoic framework would be, as I mentioned before, the dichotomy of control or, uh, where we look at the, uh, moral framers. If I, I always mix these two up. It's either Zeno or Seneca who crashed with the merchant ship and lost everything.
Erick: Yeah, it was Zeno.
Derrick: Yeah, it was Zeno. So how Zeno, he was on his ship.
He lost everything and then he went, cool. I can either despair right now. Or I can choose to go become a part of this community of philosophy over in the Roman capital. Let's go become a part of that community. And he became one of the forefathers of stoicism by doing that and changing his formula. And then the rest is history of that one, as we've seen.
Erick: Yep. Yeah. No, he decided to hang. He was actually, he was hanging out in Athens, but yes, in Greece. Yeah, down on the colonnade and the Stoa Poikile. So, but yeah, and it was funny because Stoicism was, they were originally called Zenonians.
Derrick: Really?
Erick: But Zeno didn't like that. Yeah. So the original stoics, so down on the porch it was the Stoa Poikile.
Mm-hmm. And so, um, but originally that was where they were, the poets would read their poetry. So the original stoics were actually poets. And then Zeno started talking there. And so they called him Zenonians. And then he became more popular and famous than the poets. And so pretty soon that became the place where they all hung out and then they started calling themselves the stoics because that's, that's where people would know where to find them. And so yeah, the Stoa Poikile, which is beautiful. So I always thought that was funny. Zeno was like, Zenonians..? No.
Derrick: uh, don't fuck, don't call me that. Please. Yeah, don't call me that.
Erick: Yeah. I can just imagine Zeno just like…
Derrick: this is not what I've been preaching. Stop it. Stop it, please. I'm just trying to teach you how to have a good life.
Erick: Yeah. And it took him a, it took him a long time. I think he studied philosophies pretty intently for about 20 years before he actually started teaching it. 'cause he really, mm-hmm. He was just that dedicated of a student because he, he was a very serious person, uh, for, you know, it was just, his disposition was very, very serious.
All the time. And he was, but he was also painfully shy. So when he was studying under Crates, the Cynic, um, mm-hmm. And, you know, the Cynics were, had no shame. And that was kind of the whole thing. They would just say whatever they wanted, they'd walk around like social conventions were, screw this. And, but, so he gave him a pot of lentil soup and said, here, carry this through the town square.
And Zeno was so ashamed of carrying this, like, being seen with a pot of lentil soup out at, just out in public that he tried to hide it under his cloak. And so, uh, Crates took his staff and smacked it, and the lentils broke and spilled all over him. And so he ran off and he goes, and, but his point was just like, how have you been harmed?
You have a pot of lentils down your legs. That's it. That's it. That's the only thing that happened to you. Did you really get harmed at all? And, but, you know, was so, so shy and so embarrassed by the whole thing. Right. But it was kind of a teaching lesson of going. You know, nothing, nothing harmed you. You had some lentils on your legs.
That's it. That's it. And it was like, interesting. And so, yeah. So Inter Zeno was an interesting person. He was, uh, he was a bit, he was very strict with himself and was very demanding of himself. Yeah. Um, and I think Marcus Aurelius and Seneca added a little more kindness and gentleness into stoicism, and which is needed, kind of softens some of it.
Yeah. Because it can be a very strict thing of like, you know, like, you know, you have to follow these things, but I like to point out with people that stoicism is very much just a set of principles. There's no dogma to it. Mm-hmm. There's no rules that say, this is, if you do X, Y, and Z, you are stoic. I mean, you can just declare yourself stoic and be one.
But obviously if you're not acting like stoic, then people are gonna really question that and be like, eh, absolutely. I don't think so. But there's no. Like having to pray a certain amount of times or, you know, make any kind of pilgrimage. It's just, you know, are you practicing wisdom? Are you practicing courage?
Are you treating people well? And are you practicing discipline in your life? Are you controlling the things you can't and letting go of everything else that you can't? And that makes, yeah, and that's one of the things that I really like about it, is that having grown up in a very dogmatic religion, getting away from that and recognizing that you can still be a good person by the way that you live, not by the, the rules that you follow.
Derrick: Yeah, absolutely. And also, uh, is the whole thing of, like with stoicism, it is a philosophy that's meant to be practiced through action, which was always really heavily, uh, impressed upon by all the stoics, is that no, you're supposed to get out into the world and actually practice this and make mistakes.
That's the only way you're gonna really learn through this philosophy. And they also recognize that like this philosophy, it's very prescriptive. You practice it and the areas is meant to be practiced in. And then when you encounter an area that it is not the correct tool, recognize that and go, cool. I now know that as a part of my philosophical framework, is the action to take is to see what the proper tool would be for this.
Whether that be from Zen. Yeah. It's Or anything else.
Erick: Well, it's very self corrective. And that's what I think is, is why it's so powerful, is because there's nothing you have to believe in, per se. I mean, they do have the idea of the logos, but for them, that was just really trying to explain. Why there's something rather than nothing, why the universe exists and why it moves the way that it does.
Yep. That's what the logos was, was really, it's just like there's something bigger and greater than us and it's this divine, rational intelligence and we think it's genuinely good. And that was like a very vague description of God. And that was kind of about it. But they didn't say you had to actually believe in that in order to be stoic.
You know? It's like take what works for you and if it doesn't work for you, then it's not help, then that's fine. Only take what works for you. And because it's self corrective, it's able to continue on. And I think that's the problem with a lot of religious traditions is they're not self corrective. They become not at all entangled into dogma and.
You know, but that's why like Zen Buddhism was something that I found very interesting because it is very self corrective. It's not about mm-hmm. Believing any one way. I mean, there's that old zen cone, which is, you know, Zen Buddhism is just a finger pointing at the moon. It is not the moon.
Derrick: Yep. That's all it is. Yeah. I'm just point. It's the, it is the art of pointing.
Erick: Yeah. It's, it's the whole idea of it's just one way of, of getting to the moon. It's, it's not the way, it's a way. Yeah. You know, and very much so. And I think that though, you know, I think that that's what a lot of people miss. They want to find the right path, and there really isn't, there's just paths.
And some are adventurous, some are good, some are bad, some are gonna work for you and some aren't. And so it's just you keep going down him and you figure out which one's gonna work for you.
Derrick: Absolutely. I mean, even in like, uh, the, uh, even in meditations, Marcus actually talks about how he is like. Hey, we have no idea if the gods are actually exist.
We choose to believe them or not. If it makes, if it helps us for me, I'll believe they're there. But not everyone has to 'cause the logos. Yeah. It's a thing. It can be like rationalized with that's, and that's how it was pro uh, proposed. And like meditations and other uh, uh, stoic literature is like, Hey, we have the, uh, we're trying to rationalize the web of cause and effect, whether there's some divinity in there or not.
We have no idea. Some of us in this philosophy choose to think there is, oh, there is go. I have no clue. I'm, because there, I have no clue. I'm not gonna put energy towards it because I would rather put it towards something else in the discipline. Yeah. And that's how some like, uh, proceed and others go, well, hey, I think I'm gonna incorporate this into my other practices of spirituality.
It's like, okay, cool, do it. It's just a set of principles. It's literally just a framework. The beautiful thing about frameworks is that you can repurpose them pretty easily.
Erick: Yeah. And you can adjust and you can adjust 'em as needed and focus on the things you need more. Because, you know, some people are gonna, you know, the wisdom part's gonna be easy.
They learn things very quickly and they can, they can learn from experience other people, the bravery part might be something that they need to work on, you know? And so, yeah, it's just about finding what works for you. And for me, what, what mostly helped was that I always felt like I was reasonably smart, but I felt like I didn't have the ability to think very critically to be able to pull things apart in a rational way very, very well.
And so when I found Stoicism kinda like, here's that tool that allowed me to like look at, you know, like, now I can look at like things like mental models and. Because I've worked on that rational thinking about being able to, you know, separate emotions from my thoughts and other things like that, then I'm able to just think a lot more clearly about things and, and follow those logical steps and, and see where causes of things happened and, you know, understanding my own behavior and why I have certain habits or certain reaction ways that I react or am reactive in certain ways.
Yeah. You know, it's like, okay, ooh, that was interesting and that that struck a nerve. Why did that strike a nerve? Well, it reminded me of this and that reminded me of this. And then there was this thing and then I can dig down and keep going down that chain. Yeah. And before I wasn't really able to do that as well and Stoicism has helped me to just be able to think more clearly, and that's one of the things that I really appreciate about it.
Derrick: Oh, it was beautiful. Especially because it kind of like gives you almost that framework to go, Hey, it's okay to actually follow the chain of events in your mind. Follow the rabbit hole. See why you felt that way. Because there's probably some stuff down there that you haven't encountered yet that your brain's gonna try to pull up a Jedi mind trick and say nothing to see here.
But actually it's more like, no, speaking of direct pointing, you should look at that. That thing right there that your brain's trying to hide from you. You should lean in and figure out why it's doing that and why you got that pain point. Because it might just be as simple as, oh wow, I got that pain reaction because I all sudden had like, like all, like I had a bob from like 10 years ago telling me this specific line.
It just stuck with me ever since. And now I, it is like I'm realizing that happened. Why did I feel that at that time? And you keep following it down until you get to the root cause within your own mind.
Erick: Yeah. And what you recognize is that you know emotions, you aren't your emotions. One, two emotions can't hurt you.
And so you shouldn't be afraid to look at them and actually try to understand them and accept them for what they are, and that mm-hmm. Those two things were really, really big. And that's what stoicism allowed me to do, is be able to go, I'm scared of, of this thing. I, I don't wanna look at it. And it's like, but can it hurt you?
And it's like, I, I guess not. No. And a big thing for me, like a number of years ago, I was like, you know, I, I was trying to figure out why I needed so much validation from other people, and I realized it was because I thought I was an awful person. And I'm like, okay, but why do I think I'm an awful person?
What is so awful about me that I would need to have other people to approve of me, for me to feel okay about me. Yeah. That doesn't make any sense. Okay. But what's so awful about me? I honestly don't know what is so awful about me.
Where did I get this awful from? Exactly. I'm like, well, I feel awful about myself.
I feel like I'm an awful person. But why? I mean, what is it that is so awful about me now? I was like, okay. So I sat down, I wrote down everything I didn't like about myself, and yeah. Then I looked at it and went, that's it. That's what I thought was so awful about me. This is just like, I can accept everything on this list.
I may not like everything on this list, but there's nothing awful on here, and my friends struggle with the same things I'm struggling with. And I was just like, wow. And so I do that exercise now with some of my coaching clients. I'll be like, write down everything you don't like about yourself, and then go over that list and ask yourself, can I accept this thing about me?
Yeah. And most people, if most people, when I first say, okay, I want you to write everything you don't like about yourself, they're like, Ooh. Oh,
Derrick: God, you do what? But why you, you want me to bear my soul to you right now? It's like, yes. So it, well, it's not even to me ugly, it's
Erick: just to them. Yeah. Yep. And I, and, and then when I tell them to do that, you know, and sometimes I'll just, you know, like with some friends I've done that where I'm like, okay, tell me something you don't like about yourself.
And they'll be like, oh, this thing. And I'm like, okay, tell me another thing. Tell me another thing. Tell me another thing. And I'd be like, but can you accept all those things about you? And they're just like, well, I said one because either A, it's true. Or B, you believe it's true. So why not accept reality?
Yeah. Oh, that's a really, that's a, that's a good point. Um, I'm like, you don't have to like it, and you don't have to love it. And you don't even have to change it. You just have to accept that that's who you are. Exactly. And there's like this, there's almost this relief of like, oh. I can relax about that now.
And for me, you know, like one of the things I talk about with people, I'm like, when you think that way though, when you notice those things about yourself that you don't like, and you accept them, then you are aware of them. So the next time that somebody points that out, or you're in a situation where you happen to notice it, like say that you then say that you think you're, you're a selfish person.
Maybe not all the time. Yeah. But least some of the time. And then you're in a situation where somebody goes, you know, you're being kind of selfish and you're like, wait, am I being selfish, huh? Because I know I can be selfish and I've been selfish in the past. Then it's possible that I am being selfish. So you can actually look at it without being offended by it, because you Yeah.
Have acknowledged that you can be selfish and then you can look at it rationally and go, well, yeah, okay. I am being selfish, or No, no, I'm, I'm acting totally fine. I don't think I'm being selfish this time, and I'm okay with what I'm doing. But unless you acknowledge that you can be selfish, then you can't even see the situations where you are being selfish when they're being pointed out to you.
Derrick: Yeah, very much so. 'cause it's kind of like, uh, you have to be able to see the own formulas within your mind. 'cause if you don't know they exist, then they just rule you. And it's kind of like by taking that moment to actually look inside of yourself to identify those like just hidden pathways, you actually be able to recognize when those happen.
I'll use myself as an example with like addiction. I have to really look at that and recognize that's there or, and like say, Hey, that exists. Cool. I now know that it exists. I acknowledge that it exists. And by doing that, you actually have more power to look at your own framework, within your own formulas to go, Hey, now that I know it's there, I know how all these other ones are start functioning and be able to actually into that or go, actually, you know.
That's actually not being triggered right now. This is totally fine. Just like with, oh, am I being selfish now that I've really leaned into and really analyzed myself in this instance? Oh yeah, I'm totally being selfish right now. This is 100% my mo. Or the other one would be like, actually for once I was actually just trying to help and like just be selfless in this moment of like, how can I actually provide in this, in this instance and like just give instead of that take.
Erick: Yeah. It reminds me of a quote by Carl Jung where he says, “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate.”
Derrick: Yep. 100%. Yeah.
Erick: I remember the first time I heard that, I went, it was like a cold shock of like, oh wait, oh wait. Oh, what? Wow. That's. Yeah. Yeah. That's a powerful one.
Derrick: Yeah, that's a thing. So that's also really beautiful.
Erick: Yeah, for sure. Well, I think we're coming up on time here, so I really appreciate the time that we've been spending here. Um, why don't you go ahead and let my audience know where they can find you. Maybe if they're into Drum and Bass, they can check out your record label and, and yeah, give it a, a listen.
Derrick: So where you guys can find me out in the world is Stop by of Road Tripping Records, uh, on SoundCloud, Spotify, Instagram, Facebook. You type it in there, you'll find it. Uh, and that's more of the, uh, group project side where I work with a lot of different artists and we make sure that their, like dreams are recognized, that they're brought forward.
And also so that we create like community interaction where we're like, Hey, we're doing a cipher, let's go. And we give like a, uh. Artistic framework for people to create inside and play, but also come up into quality. And it's, uh, beautiful to see the community grow in that regard. And then on the other side, if for my more personal project, uh, you can find me over at Blunter S. Whompson like Hunter S. Thompson, the Blunter S. Whompson for all my drum bass, halftime drum bass, and neuro hop.
You can find me on that name at SoundCloud. Spotify, apple Music, all of the Distros, and also on IEG, Facebook and Threads. And if you wanna like find more like YouTube content, hop over to Road Tripping Records on YouTube. You'll find all of our videos there along with actually, uh, short casts of some of our artists.
Erick: Nice. Well, di it was great catching up with you. Um, and I hope that it does another year doesn't have to go by before we talk or hang out. Some point, so
Derrick: Well, well, hey, uh, keep an eye out for October 'cause I'll be coming through for a DE, so I'll have to link up.
Erick: All right. Sounds good, man.
Derrick: All right. Take care, man. Much love. It was a pleasure.
Erick: Hey friends, thanks for joining me for this interview with Derek Zarkowski. I hope that you enjoyed it. I find Derek to be a very interesting person. He's very easygoing, but uh, obviously he's had a li a lot of life experience and really enjoyed my conversation with him. Also, wanted to put a shout out for my book.
Again, if you haven't purchased it, it is Stoicism 101. You can find out more about that and my website. You can also follow me on all the different social media application, and you can find those on my website as well at Stoic Coffee. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
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