Do you fear the unexpected? Do you stress out when life throws you a curveball? Today I want to talk about how to handle, appreciate, and even look forward to the unexpected events that life brings your way.
“All greatness comes from suffering.”
— Naval Ravikant
Unexpected
Life is full of surprises. When we think that we’ve got things figured out and that things are going our way, something or someone pops up and throws a monkey wrench into our day to day that disrupts our lives and sends us spinning. Things like getting laid off, getting in a car accident, or even a critical diagnosis are all parts of daily life that we think will never happen to us, until they do.
When these things happen to us we may get angry or stressed out, or feel like life is unfair. But the thing is, the unexpected challenges that happen often end up being the best things to happen to us. They might send our lives in a completely different direction. We might meet others who impact our life in a deep way. We could even discover our life’s purpose. The challenge is that it’s hard to see any of this when you’re in the middle of it. It is only through hindsight that we can go back and see the connections of the events that lead us to where we end up.
Lessons
“Life is a storm that will test you unceasingly. Don’t wait for calm waters that may not arrive. Derive purpose from resilience. Learn to sail the raging sea.
— @TheStoicEmperor (twitter)
There are those that think that the universe or god is sending you what you need to learn. That the challenges that happen in your life are happening because you need it. I don’t hold to this idea. Mainly, because it assumes some sort of intelligence that is making choices for what you need to learn in life.
If this were the case, if every struggle that came someone’s way was a lesson for them, it would be given to them in a way that they would have taken the opportunity to learn and grow from it. I have seen time after time in the lives of people I know, and even in my own life, that when hard things come along, the lessons are more often than not just ignored.
For me, I see that the challenges that come up in our lives are opportunities for us to take or reject. It is always our choice how we want to deal with them. The universe is indifferent. We can love the things that come our way, or hate them, but it doesn’t change that the fact that we have these challenges. The only thing that we can control about the unexpected things that happen to us is our attitude about them and how we want to deal with them.
Control
“I’m not a coward I've just never been tested I'd like to think that if I was I would pass Look at the tested and think there but for the grace go I Might be a coward I'm afraid of what I might find out”
— Mighty Mighty Bosstones
The main reason why the unexpected is so uncomfortable is that it feels like a loss of control. Because it was not what we’re were expecting, it’s most likely something that we haven’t prepared for, so it can disrupt our sense of stability and security.
It can be hard to let go of the way things were before the unexpected event occurred. We are comfortable with how things are and find ourselves resisting the changes that we have to make. Unexpected events force us out of our comfort zone.
Often, it can be difficult to adjust to a new situation or circumstance. It can even reach the point where it feels overwhelming and stressful. We may not have the skills we need to navigate some unexpected events. We feel out of our depth and unsure of what to do.
Because we had expectations of how we thought things should be, when unexpected events happen, it can cause us to feel uncertain about the future. We get stuck in the idea that tomorrow will be the same as today.
But nothing in life stays the same. Nothing is certain. Life is change.
Wars, disasters, illness, accidents, losing a job, and breakups are just a few unexpected things that we have no control over. These things are life changing and in the moment, the uncertainty can feel overwhelming.
But this is when we need to remember the only things we can control is our perspective on the events that happen in our lives, and how we want to respond to them. In short, our will. To hate the unexpected is to hate life because in truth, everything that happens is unexpected.
Positives
“The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers.”
—M. Scott Peck
So what are the positive side of unexpected things that happen to us?
They can shake things up and lead to new opportunities or experiences. Often our lives are just going along and we fall into ruts or are stagnating. We may not seek out the things that we need to grow. We may be always seeking comfort or safety. The unexpectedness of life is the thing that gives us a chance to step up to challenges and see what we’re made of. It calls upon us to step out of our comfort zone, to change our perspective, and try new things.
Often times, the unexpected and challenging things that happen to us are the things that help us find our life’s purpose. For me, a great example of courage in the face of the unexpected is Malala Yousafzai. At the age of 15, she survived an assassination attempt from the Taliban because she was advocating for education girls in her region of Afghanistan. Rather than letting her life threatening injuries scare her from her mission, she used what happened to her as a way to draw attention to the treatment of girls in her country. Through this terrible event, she found her life purpose.
Unexpected challenges can help us appreciate the good things in our lives that we may have taken for granted. As humans we get used to the routine of daily life. We get used to things being a certain way. When things get shaken up, we may find appreciation for the things in our lives, or we may even recognize that we just put up with things because that’s just how they have been. When life is shaken up a little, we may reevaluate things and get rid of things that don’t serve us, but we wouldn’t have even noticed that if our life hadn’t been knocked out of balance.
“The path to success will leave you callused, bruised, and very tired. It will also leave you empowered.”
— David Goggins
The unexpected can challenge us to grow and develop new skills or perspectives. If we never had unexpected challenges pop up in out lives, then we would never gain new skills. Without challenges outside of our comfort zones and realms of expertise, we’ll never learn how to deal with anything new. If everything stays the same as it is, we never develop a new perspective on life, and honestly, we’d get bored.
The unexpected can foster resilience and adaptability. Learning to deal with the unexpected helps us to roll with the things that life sends our way. It helps us to develop courage to face things that are uncomfortable or scary. If we’re only dealing with predictable problems then we lose our flexibility and adaptability. Life gets pretty boring if nothing changes.
“Why does he smile when misfortune strikes? He knows it is an opportunity to cultivate virtue. Death, loss, decline. These things come for us all. Facing pain is how we make ready. Adversity sharpens the blade of will. Greet the test gladly. Endure.”
— @TheStoicEmperor (twitter)
The unexpected can provide a sense of adventure and excitement. Life is change. Even when you think things are stable, they are always changing, we just aren’t noticing it. It is dealing with change that makes life interesting. If we never had anything unexpected and everything went according to plan and stayed the same, life would be incredibly boring and we’d fail to grow. We’d stay in our comfort zones and never have anything exciting or interesting happen in our lives.
When you think about it, the best movies and books are about everyday people who have something unexpected or interesting happen to them. We get to see how they try and fail and get up and try again while dealing with the with the twists and turns that happen in their lives. The best jokes are the ones you hear with an unexpected punchline. The best songs are often the ones with unexpected or dissonant notes. If everything was predictable, then it would be extremely boring. There would be no reason to watch or listen or read anything.
Dealing With the Unexpected
“To bear trials with a calm mind robs misfortune of its strength and burden.”
— Seneca
So how do we deal with the unexpected? How can we take steps to manage things in ways that we not only get through them, but thrive because of them?
First and foremost, take a deep breath. Getting yourself into a space where you can look at things rationally and calmly will help you keep your mind open to more options and better decision making. Panicking never helps, and will most likely make things worse. When you panic, you’re driven by fear, and you start catastrophizing everything around you. Keeping calm helps you weigh your options better, and help you choose what is best for you in the long run.
“It does not matter what you bear, but how you bear it.”
— Seneca
Next is acceptance. When we practice amor fati, and we love our fate, then we are able to welcome the unexpected. We accept that life is never going to go exactly like we think it should. We take each unexpected thing that happens, and see what opportunities are being given to us. It may not feel like an opportunity at the time. In fact it may feel like the worst thing that has ever happened. But sitting around bemoaning how things are not as you would like them to be, wastes time in dealing with things are they are.
By practicing acceptance, we also let go of the things that we can’t control. We stop wishing that things were otherwise, and focus on what we can control. We shift our perspective to help us see things in a way that is more advantageous to us. We look for the choices in front of us and take actions to move ourselves in the right direction.
“The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are.
— Marcus Aurelius
Once we’ve gotten ourselves into a more rational and calm mindset, we can prioritize and problem solve. We can look at the most important parts of the problems we’re facing, and focus on what you can do in the moment to deal with the situation. Sometimes the situation is about triage, meaning it’s something that we have to respond to quickly. Sometimes we have time to reflect on the choices we have in front of us. The important thing is to calmly assess our options and begin to take action.
Another important part of dealing with the unexpected is to lean on your support system. Reach out to those you trust for support and perspective. You don’t have to solve everything on your own. Often times when we’re stressed or panicked, having a reassuring friend can be the thing that helps ground you, especially if they are not directly involved. Take advantage of the fact that they have some distance from the problem so they may see things a little more clearly.
Lastly, be kind to yourself. It's okay to feel overwhelmed or upset, so don't be too hard on yourself. Life is going to throw you curveballs, and many of the unexpected things you’ll have to deal with, happen through no fault of your own. Do the best you can, and recognize that you might make mistakes. The goal isn’t perfection, but to make the best choices you can, learn from your mistakes, and try again.
Expect the Unexpected
“This is why we need to envisage every possibility and to strengthen the spirit to deal with the things which may conceivably come about. Rehearse them in your mind: exile, torture, war, shipwreck. Misfortune may snatch you away from your country… If we do not want to be overwhelmed and struck numb by rare events as if they were unprecedented ones; fortune needs envisaging in a thoroughly comprehensive way.”
— Seneca
The last idea that I want to talk about is something that I’ve mentioned many times on my podcast. It’s the practice of premeditatio malorum, which means “premeditated malice”. This is when you take some time to consider the worst things that could happen in a situation so that you can prepare for them. Now, this is not the same thing as catastrophizing, but rather you do this when you are in a good mental space, and you dispassionately consider what you would do if certain things happen. This is what good crisis planners do, which helps them to prepare for as many things as possible.
Conclusion
The unexpected is there to teach us something we didn’t know we needed. The unexpected gives us opportunities that we wouldn’t have found otherwise. We may find a challenging situation which calls on us to rise above what we thought we were capable of. We may meet someone who changes the course of our lives. Sometimes an unexpected event is the thing that sends our life in a direction that we never could have dreamed of. As much as we want the expected and the routine, the unexpected offers us surprise and joy and pain and anxiety and delight. It’s the spice of life and the thing that makes life interesting.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
Are you a patient person? Do you pay attention in your life or are you just rushing through your day? Today I want to talk about how patience is one of the most important attributes you need to live a full life, and reach your goals.
"A man who is a master of patience is master of everything else."
— Epictetus
Fast
We live in a world of instant gratification. We’re used to getting almost anything we want easily and quickly. When you buy something on amazon, you get it just a day or two. You want to see a movie, listen to that certain song all you have to do is open your phone or your computer. Want a date or to order dinner? There’s an app for that.
But when it comes to personal growth or achieving our goals, often things don’t move that quickly. We may learn something and want to improve ourselves, but we are creatures of habit and changing behaviors and well worn thought patterns is not something we can just decide and change instantly. While I wish it were just as easy opening the menu of an app and choosing a few options, it takes consistency, and to be consistent takes patience.
Patience
“Man conquers the world by conquering himself.”
— Zeno of Citium
Patience is something that needs to be practiced and cultivated. Our world is all about instant gratification and trying to get your attention all day long. They even have a term for it – the attention economy. Your attention is so important that they are willing to do whatever they can to get your attention. The more that apps and advertisements have your attention, the more likely you are to buy whatever it is that they are selling.
Impatience
"Patience is power. Patience is not an absence of action; rather it is 'timing' – it waits on the right time to act, for the right principles and in the right way."
— Fulton J. Sheen
Impatience is a non-acceptance of reality. When we are impatient, we are expressing our frustration with reality for what it is and wishing that it was something else. We are registering out discontent with the now and want it to be something different than what it is.
When we are patient, we have a strong sense of awareness. We are present where we are. We give the now – where we are, what we are doing, and what we want to accomplish our full attention. If you wonder why the quality of your work is not where you want it to be, notice how much attention you pay to what you are doing.
Years ago I decided that I wanted to learn to play the cello. I got myself a nice cello, hired a teacher, practiced a minimal amount of time each day, and dutifully showed up for my lessons each week. While I made some progress, I felt frustrated because I wasn’t progressing as fast as I thought I should. I assumed that because I already knew a lot about music that my previous skills would help me to be proficient in a short amount of time. But after a year, I quit.
Looking back on it years later, I realized that I was too impatient. I had expectations of where I thought I should be after a certain amount of time. When I didn’t hit those expectations, I found excuses about why I wasn’t making the progress I wanted. Excuses like, “I was just too busy to practice like I needed to”, or “Maybe the cello is just not my thing”. In reality, it was simply that I needed the patience to put the time and attention to my practice to get to the level that I wanted to be at.
Procrastination
Patience is not procrastination. Procrastination is about doing anything other than what you are actually trying to accomplish. It’s about distracting yourself from the task at hand, because there is some feeling of discomfort attached to what you are trying to get done. Patience is the opposite of procrastination. Patience is about taking your time with what you are doing so you give it your full and undivided attention. Patience is about sitting with the uncomfortable so that you can accomplish what you set out to do.
Falling Behind
"Patience is a form of wisdom. It demonstrates that we understand and accept the fact that sometimes things must unfold in their own time."
— Jon Kabat-Zinn
One of the reason why many of us struggle with patience is that we feel like we are falling behind. In each culture there are often markers of what means to be successful. We may see others around us making some kinds of achievements and feel like there is something wrong with us when we aren’t as successful as our peers. We may have also created expectations around ourselves and where we should be, and if we’re not there we start to feel like we are failing. We begin to feel stress, which ultimately leads to us not getting things done on time, or at the level that we know we can.
Do it Well
When we choose patience over rushing, then we do whatever it is we are working on better. Whether we are washing dishes, weeding the garden, or coding an application, when we choose to be mindful and give it our attention, the quality will almost always be better. When we take our time to do something well, then we also almost always save time because we aren’t rushing. When we rush we’re prone to do things poorly and make mistakes that slow us down and will often create issues that we will have to fix later.
Focused attention can save us time in the long run.
Patience is Optimism
When we are patient, we are also optimistic. When we choose to put the time and energy into doing whatever we are doing so that it is done right, we have faith that putting focus into our task is worth it. It means that we have decided that our task, whether that’s teaching a child how to play soccer, writing a book, or sweeping the kitchen floor, is worth our time and attention.
Listening is Understanding
“Formulating an opinion is not listening.”
― Rick Rubin, The Creative Act: A Way of Being
Often we don’t have patience when we are reading a book or listening to someone talk. We hurry through the book we are reading. We put the podcast on double speed. When listening to someone we may try to rush ahead and generalize their message, rather than taking the time to really understand the subtleties and nuances. We try to get the information out as fast as we possibly can. But collecting information is not the same as understanding something.
When we rush ahead we miss the subtext, what is hinted at, implied, or said between the lines. We also miss the joy of discovery and play with the material or person we’re listening to. When we seek to understand, we take the time we need. We allow for discovery. We let what we’ve learned sink in. We may even pause to consider what we’ve heard, or go back and reread a paragraph that has something deeper that we may have missed on the first pass.
The internet is full of information, but what is more important than all the information that is out there is we understand what we are consuming in a deeper way. Finding the right book or the key information is good, but unless we internalize it, reflect on it, and understand how to apply it, then it just stays in the realm of knowledge, and never makes its way to wisdom. Wisdom takes patiences.
This is why Socrates asked so many questions. He didn’t just want information, but he wanted to understand the information that he had. Being able to recite all the facts about something does you little good if you do not truly understand what it means and are able to use that information in a wise way.
Attention
“I live my life, I live it slowly. I take my time, I’m in no hurry.”
— Seal
In order for us to pay attention, we need patience. Attention takes times, energy, and effort. But to do anything well, it needs our attention. Good relationships take attention. Raising children takes attention. Creating art, building a business, or developing a new skill, all of these things take attention. Attention is your greatest resource in anything you do.
So often we simply sleepwalk through our lives because we aren’t paying attention. We have a list of things that we need to get done, and we push through those, often on autopilot. We do this all throughout the day with whatever it is we are doing. Going for a run, shopping for groceries, driving the kids to school. We pay so little attention to what we are doing that the day just slips by and the next thing we know we’re brushing our teeth and heading for bed.
Consider how different your life might feel it you gave your life the attention you would give to performing open heart surgery. Rather than mindlessly crossing things off our daily checklist, think of how much more engaged with your life would you be if you gave it focused attention. You would still get all the things done on your checklist, but you would be much more present with each moment. You would have been more immersed in each step of each task. Taking the time to slow down and be present enriches each moment. It gives each moment more weight and focus.
Attention is Love
Growing up, one of the most important people in my life was my grandmother. What I remember most about her is the attention that she gave me when we talked. Whether that was me excitedly telling her all the details of my latest wrestling match or theater performance, or talking about the girls at school, I always felt like what I said mattered to her. I felt like I mattered. She asked questions and never rushed me. I felt loved around her because she didn’t just give me her time, she gave me her attention.
Do you give attention to the people in your life? Are you patient with them? Are you present and attentive with your family and friends or are you too busy scrolling on your phone? Even with the challenging relationship that I had with my father, the things I remember most are not the material things he gave me, but the interesting conversations that we had about things like the cosmos and chaos theory. It was his attention that I wanted.
Thinking Takes Time
"Patience is the companion of wisdom."
— Saint Augustine
Good thinking takes time. When we are rushed or stressed, our ability to think drops dramatically. Our ability to consider and come up with more options is reduced. This is why people in chaotic situations often make terrible decisions. This why soldiers practice in situations that are high stress so that they can slow things down and make good decisions under fire.
Now, most of us don’t need to make decisions under that kind of stress. We usually have time to sit down and think things over. But how often do you take that kind of time? How often do you sit at your desk and just think? Or sit down and write out your thoughts so that you can examine them a bit more rationally? Or maybe go for a walk to consider something? Taking your time to consider something is always a good choice because it allows your mind to consider more options and survey the landscape. You’re often better able to see the whole picture and have a broader view than when you’re rushing into a decision
Practicing Patience
“Patience is bitter, but its fruit is sweet.”
— Aristotle
So how do we get better about practicing patience?
Patience is really about mindfulness. It’s about slowing down and taking your time. When you are doing something, be as mindful as you can be. At first, this will not be easy. If your tendency is to rush, you’ll want to get through something rather than experiencing it. Can you slow down? Can you start to notice details? Can you see how thoroughly you can do something? Can you find ways to do each task well and improve how you do it? I think you’ll be surprised at much pleasure you can get just by trying to do each step just a little better.
Limiting Distractions
The more you can limit distractions, the easier it is to be patient. If you’re in a conversation with someone, try putting your phone on airplane mode so that you can give them your full attention. If you’re working on a project make sure that your workspace is clean and organized and that other projects or distractions are out of the way.
For example, when I write a podcast episode, I will often take my laptop out of my office and sit on my front deck to write. Because I can only use the screen on my laptop rather than the large monitors in my office, it is harder to get distracted with other web pages or apps.
Discomfort
"Patience is the ability to idle your motor when you feel like stripping your gears."
— Barbara Johnson
I often talk on this podcast about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable. This is one of the most important skills that you can develop. When you choose to face discomfort head on, you are able to learn to relax when things are challenging. You are able to do what needs to be done even if it is not what you might consider fun or enjoyable. It is about taking control of yourself, and your emotions and pressing forward even when you don’t feel like it.
Being patient can feel uncomfortable. Whether that’s working on a project, creating a piece of art, or trying to make changes in our lives, we want to get things done fast. We fixate on the end goal, and miss out on enjoying the process. When we are patient, we are able to bring mindfulness to the process, and be present rather than just running on autopilot.
When you are working on a project or reading a book, set aside an amount of time where you are only allowed to work on the particular task or nothing at all. By forcing yourself to confront the uncomfortable feelings, you’ll start to develop the capacity to just sit with them. You’ll be able to be okay with with how you feel and not reach for distractions to alleviate the discomfort.
Observations on Boredom
One of the most interesting things that I’ve noticed when I really pay attention to a task that I consider boring like washing dishes or doing yard work is that I will often have random ideas or inspirations that pop up that have nothing to do with what I’m doing. By giving my focus to the task, it seems to take my full conscious attention, which allows my unconscious to work through something else, and give me answers in other areas where I felt stuck.
Conclusion
Time is the most precious resource we have. By learning to slow down and be patient with the time you have, you use it wisely. As I get older, I feel the weight of having less time ahead of me than I have behind me. I want my time to last as long as possible, and I want to use the remaining time I have on this planet to accomplish what I want. I’ve found that the more patient and mindful that I am in my everyday tasks, the days seem to slow down and last longer. And while patience is not about productivity, by practicing patience and attention we actually end up being more productive. Patience helps us to do everything we do at a higher level, and helps us be more present and really experience everything in our lives more fully.
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Do you live in fear? Are there things in your life that you are afraid to try? Today I want to talk about why courage is the foundational virtue of stoicism, and how to develop a courageous mind.
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something else is more important than fear."
— Franklin D. Roosevelt
Courage
One of the four virtues of Stoicism is courage. For me, this is the most important virtue. There are a lot of things in this world that cause us fear or anxiety. Most of these things are not things that can actually physically harm us, but still trigger the same physiological response in our body. Courage enables you to face and overcome adversity, which is a prerequisite for living virtuously. It takes courage to practice the three other virtues of wisdom, temperance, and justice because these virtues require you to reign in your ignorance, control your desires, and act against injustice in the world. Without courage, it would be difficult or even impossible to practice these other virtues consistently.
But first, let’s define courage. According to the dictionary, courage is:
“The state or quality of mind or spirit that enables one to face danger, fear, or vicissitudes with self-possession, confidence, and resolution; bravery.”
When we dig a little deeper we find that courage comes from the Latin word “cor”, which means heart. In one of its earliest forms, courage meant to “speak one’s mind by telling all one’s heart”. Over time it has changed to its current definition, but I really like the idea that courage in our words and our actions is about what is really in our hearts.
So now that we’ve established a basic definition of courage, let’s talk about why I consider courage to be the foundational virtue, meaning it helps us to live the other 3 virtues.
Wisdom
“To make good decisions, you need wisdom. To gain wisdom, you need experience. You get experience by making bad decisions.”
There are many facets of courage, and if you ever want to read an interesting dialogue on courage, I recommend Plato’s Laches in which Socrates and several other discuss the nature of courage. Within that dialogue they talk about how courage is not just enduring something, but is also about doing so wisely, which I thought was great because it helps to show how the virtues are interconnected.
To gain wisdom in our lives we need to be willing to step up and make choices. If we stand back and don’t take any actions in our lives and we aren’t willing to take risks, then we never gain experience. It is through trying and failing that we learn, and accumulate wisdom in our lives. It takes courage to step up and be willing to fail.
Justice
The universe is not fair in the way that most people think it should be, and justice is not something that is built into the world. This is why justice is one of the 4 virtues. Justice is something that we need to advocate for. It is through our courage that we stand up for fairness, rationality, and the equal application of the law to all that we are able to get closer to having a more just society.
Temperance
It takes courage to moderate ourselves. Whether that is moderating our emotions, how much we eat or drink, or our other desires, it takes courage to reign in the darker parts of ourselves. Courage is the core of self-discipline. It is the thing that helps us make better choices for ourselves.
Courage itself is a moderating virtue. Courage helps us to balance fear, not eliminate it. Fear is a useful emotion, but like all emotions it needs to be managed. If we have too little fear, then we’re likely to be overconfident and reckless. Whereas if we have too much fear, then we are paralyzed and are unable to take action.
The Courageous Mind
“The tranquility that comes when you stop caring what they say. Or think, or do. Only what you do.”
— Marcus Aurelius
"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear – not absence of fear."
— Mark Twain
Next I want to talk about the idea of the “courageous mind”. The courageous mind is one that is able to act according to reason and wisdom, rather than giving in to fear, anger, or other emotions. When you cultivate a courageous mind, then you are able to see and manage the emotions that may arise when you are in challenging or stressful situations. Cultivating the ability to be dispassionate at important moments can help you to make choices that are not only beneficial, but also avoid ones that you may regret later.
The courageous mind is one that is able to remain calm and objective in difficult situations. A courageous mind is one that is able to see the big picture and act accordingly. In this way, courage is not just about being physically brave, but also about being mentally and emotionally brave.
Responsibility
When we develop a courageous mind, we step up and take responsibility for our own actions, rather than blaming others or making excuses. This type of courage is often called "moral courage." It takes moral courage to admit when you are wrong, to apologize when you have made a mistake, and to change your behavior when necessary.
Growing up, it was often hard for me to take responsibility for things because if I made a mistake and it upset my father, there was a good chance that I could get a beating. I got pretty good at coming up with excuses or placing the blame on someone or something else. Once I was out of that environment I started to make active choices to take more responsibility for my actions and my choices.
Integrity
When we develop a courageous mind, we live a life of integrity. This means that we act according to your principles and values, even in the face of persecution. Often, because we are afraid of the opinions of others, we may find it challenging to step up and do what we feel is right. When we have developed courage, we don’t let the opinions of others hold us back when it matters.
Honesty
A courageous mind enables you to be honest with yourself and others, even when it's difficult. One of the hardest things about self improvement is learning to be honest with yourself. Our egos would rather hold on to the self deceptions that we have. We like to think that we are smarter, kinder, or more selfless than we really are. The more honest we are with ourselves, the faster we can make progress because we are actually being aware of our shortcomings and failures, and we can address them head on.
Self-Discipline
“Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.”
— Thucydides
Courage is at the core of self-discipline. Courage is what is needed for us to get ourselves to do the things that we want. It takes courage to get up and exercise when we don’t feel like it. It takes courage to limit the amount we drink or cut down on the desserts we like. Courage is what we need to step up and take control of our desires, and not let them control the us.
Boundaries
“Keep company only with people who uplift you.”
— Epictetus
One of the areas where courage is needed the most is when it comes to boundaries. When you change the dynamic in a relationship by setting boundaries, others may not like it and may get upset with you because they want to keep things as they are. Learning how to set and enforce healthy boundaries is something that takes a lot of courage because the other person may put a lot of pressure on you to keep things the same. Sometimes it can even mean the end of a relationship.
This is an area that I’ve struggled with a lot in the past. Often, I would try to set boundaries with others, only to let things slide when the other person would get upset with me. My people pleaser behavior would want to resolve the tension. I would also think that maybe I was doing something wrong because they were upset with me.
When you set a boundary with someone, and you hold to your principles, it can feel scary. It can cause a lot of anxiety. It takes courage to hold to your principles, and the confidence that comes from holding to your principles can help you stand your ground while being polite but firm.
Resilience
“He who does not prevent a feeling of fear is not brave; but he who overcomes fear, is.”
— Seneca
“Don’t let your fears paralyze you into becoming a lesser version of yourself. Eliminate fear by confronting what you’re afraid of.”
— David Goggins
So how do we get better about being more courageous in our lives?
One important thing to keep in mind is that having courage is not the same as having no fear. If you aren’t afraid of something, then you don’t really need courage to step up and do it. When you have courage, you are willing to do what needs to be done in the face of fear.
When we allow fear to control our lives, then we end up living less of a life. We avoid things that are scary, or uncomfortable. We don’t take risks that would benefit us in the long run and help us to live our best lives. We often end up regretting the opportunities we didn’t take.
Developing a courageous mind is something that needs to be practiced. It takes consistently stepping outside your comfort zone and exercising your will. It means that you need to consciously make choices and take actions in spite of fear and anxiety. The more you practice facing up to and pushing through your fear, the easier it becomes. It is courage that helps us to step up, feel the fear, work through the discomfort, and do it anyway.
When we have the courage to face our fears we don’t have to take them all on at once. We can start small and work our way up to bigger challenges. You can step into things that are uncomfortable and get used to them. The more we face our fears, the more resilient we become, and the easier it will be to bounce back from adversity.
Self-Compassion
Another key component to developing courage is self-compassion. When we make mistakes or fall short, the best thing we can do is to treat ourselves kindly. Beating yourself up makes it more likely that you will be less willing to try again. When you treat yourself with compassion, then you’re giving yourself a safe space to try, fail, and try again.
Mindfulness
“Fear is the basis of all suffering. Both desire and anger are manifestations of fear. Fear itself is a creation of your mind. It does not exist independently. Since it is a fabrication, you don’t have to fight it. Just understand it. Understanding is the key to freedom.“
— @TheAncientSage (twitter)
Practicing mindfulness helps us to be more aware of our thoughts and emotions. If we are unaware of what we are feeling, then we tend to led by our emotions rather than our principles or rational thinking. The more we are aware of our thoughts and emotions, the easier it will be to stay calm and rational in the face of fear.
One area of fear that I have is when I fly on an airplane. I know that it is an irrational and visceral fear, but it grips me every time I fly. This last week I flew out to Salt Lake City to visit with friends and family. It was a challenge for me because even though I know that I’m more likely to die driving to the airport than I am in the plane, it still spikes my anxiety. The flight to Salt Lake was so rough that they didn’t even serve drinks. I sat in my seat and did my best to get my body to relax while I listened to music and talked with my neighbor. I have to say, even though it still spiked my anxiety a bit, it was better than the last time I flew. I think that was a results of my mindfulness practices over the years. I hope that it will be even better the next time I fly.
Optimism
“Why does he smile when misfortune strikes? He knows it is an opportunity to cultivate virtue. Death, loss, decline. These things come for us all. Facing pain is how we make ready. Adversity sharpens the blade of will. Greet the test gladly. Endure.”
— @TheStoicEmperor (twitter)
Courage is also closely linked to optimism. If you believe that good things are possible, then you’re more likely to take risks and go after the things you want. You’ll be willing to face discomfort and fear because you believe that you’ll be able to push through and achieve your goals. You’ll be more willing to practice self-discipline because you believe that your efforts will pay off. You’ll also be less likely to self sabotage because you’ll be less focused on all the things that could go wrong and more focused on the things that you can do right.
Conclusion
There’s a lot in this world that is challenging, uncomfortable, or scary. It’s easy to fall into a place of negativity and complacency. Developing a courageous mind is a lifelong endeavor and needs to be practiced daily. Cultivating courage is like strengthening a muscle. It is something that needs to be done consciously and mindfully in order to keep fear and anxiety from hijacking our minds. It is something that is necessary for developing and improving our self-discipline. Lastly, courage helps you become more optimistic because you believe that your efforts will be worth it, and you will be able to make the progress you want.
Here’s the transcript for this episode. I tried to fix as many trancription errors as possible. 🙂
[00:00:09] Erick: Hello, friends. My name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take an aspect of stoicism and do my best to break it down to its most important points. I talk about my experiences, my successes and my failures and I hope that you can learn something from them and make your life just a little bit better. So this week's episode is an interview that I did with Hannah Gabber. Now, Hannah is the host of a podcast called Jewish and she contacted me because she really liked my episode about askers and guessers. So she comes from an ask culture and I come from a guest culture. And so we sat down, I had a conversation about that. We talked about my life about how I left the church and fell into stoicism and kind of, it's a wide range of conversation. It was a lot of fun. Hannah is really smart. She's very funny and I recommend that you give her a podcast to listen again and that one is called Jewish and I will have a link to it in the show notes I will also have a link to the Askers and Guessers episode, which was episode 181. So you can go back and listen to that and kind of refresh your brain on what it is to live in a ask culture or a guest culture. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it with Hannah.
Erick: Asking doesn't need to be a bludgeon. There doesn't need to be a cudgel that you use against people. And that's what a lot of people have a hard time with directness. They think that it's using it as a weapon because you can be direct and you can still be kind. But some people are just going to be offended no matter what because it is a direct question. But if you can ask any question with a bit of compassion and a bit of kindness wrapped around it and let them know just saying, hey, you know, the reason why I'm asking this is because this is something I really need to understand about us. Otherwise it's going to cause a lot of problems going forward.
[00:02:07] Hannah: Meet Erick Cloward. He's the host of one of my absolute favorite podcasts and very important part of my morning ritual. The stoic coffee break. I discovered the show during the depths of COVID when all of us were searching for something to look towards. I didn't realize it at the time, but he'd been recording for a while and I wasn't that far through his back catalog before I came across his sign off episode. So I finished all the episodes that were available to me and then I unsubscribed, but there really wasn't anything out there like it. So after gosh, probably over a year I decided, forget it. I'll just start from the beginning and listen to all of the episodes again. I went back to the show and there were all these new episodes, I began gobbling up the back catalog and I eventually came across an episode about asking versus guessing cultures. Erick has talked a lot on the show about being raised in Utah and growing up in the Mormon church and his less than always happy family history. But in his short form show, we don't really get to hear a ton about his actual journey out of those places and into the places of exploration and philosophy that he tries to inhabit. Now, when I heard the asking versus guessing cultures episode, just light bulbs going off in all directions. I saw reflections of myself in it. I saw reflections of people I've known over the years of interactions that I maybe didn't really understand in any case. Uh I got cheeky and stalked him on the internet till I found his email. And I reached out and said, hey, I'm nobody. But do you want to come on my show? And in characteristic uh stoic generosity, he was like uh sure. So I present to you Erick Cloward of the Stoic Coffee Break, which I will link in the show notes. Did you find that a lot of people came across the stoic coffee break during the pandemic? Yeah. Um, because you started it before that.
[00:04:05] Erick: Yeah, I started it back in 2018. Uh Actually January 4th 2018, I remember because I, I had made a new year resolution. I was going to start a podcast and I had tried starting one before and it was about music soundtracks because I just, I love music soundtracks, you know. Um, and I, I made an episode or two but it just, it, I didn't like it. It was, didn't sound good. I was just, I sounded terrible in my voice and all the things I was super hyper critical about it. But then I realized that it was going to probably cost quite a bit to actually license the music to be able to play it or because I didn't know anything about, you know, is this commentary covered under fair use or any of those kind of things. So I was just like, I don't want to deal with all that. But yeah, my ex partner made me promise that I would do at least 100 episodes before I quit my podcast.
Hannah: Oh, I love that.
Erick: And because she's just like, you know, I know you when things get tough, you,
[00:05:00] Hannah: the tough get going. Yeah.
[00:05:02] Erick: So I was like, ok, I'll make you that promise. The whole thing was for me, it was like, I don't care if it's good. I just care if I actually do it. And so I just kept putting it out. Um, and then I think after I had like, about six or seven episodes, you know, and they're only like, three or four minutes long, the first, you know, the first chunk of them. Um, I had like 42 listens and I was like, holy crap. That's kind of a lot like 42 people to listen to me. Who are these people?
[00:05:28] Hannah: 42 strangers out there that care what I have to say.
[00:05:31] Erick: Exactly. And then I hit, I hit like 100 then I hit 1000 then I hit 5000 and then it was 10,000. I'm just like, holy crap. I just, it was like, this is just so weird and I actually have a screenshot of like, when it hit 10,000, I actually got it right on 10,000. I was like, yeah, it was just like, no way. Holy crap. That is such a crazy thing!
[00:05:52] Hannah: that's such a crazy feeling. And I'm not gonna lie when I got my, my little email saying, you know, congratulations, you've hit 1000 listens. I was like, that's kind of a milestone, you know, it feels kind of exciting and then I actually just surpassed 2000 listens. So up we go, I guess. I found your podcast mid pandemic. So it was already 2020. And so I'm going through your back catalog. Of course, you were doing it every single day and I cannot imagine what a workload that was once a week is a lot.
[00:06:21] Erick: Um, I mean, I was really burnt out. I was really working a lot on it. I also had a full time job. I had a partner. I had teenagers. So basically, once I hit 137 I changed it to a full time or to a weekly podcast so that I could do more with it. So the 137 like I said, they were generally about five minutes. And then from that point on, uh they've been about 10 to 15 minutes on average, even then I took another break. Um I took some time off and then, um me and my partner had a big blowout at a music festival. Uh that may which it, I mean, it was really good. It, it taught me a really important lesson and I recognized some things and I was like, huh, you know what this is super important. I need to take this lesson that I've learned and share it with other people. So, um so then I was like, ok, you know what I need to get back and making episodes and I joke around to call them my public therapy because usually what you hear on there is something I'm struggling with and going, “How do I get past this thing? Because you know, this is, this is really challenging for me.”
[00:07:31] Hannah: You've talked a lot on the pot about how you were raised Mormon. And did you find at first when you started looking into stoicism, was there a clash? Was it like there were tenets that I know that you had already left and maybe you can take us through that journey. When, when did you start questioning your guessing culture? Because I know that that's a big theme you talked about in the episode that triggered me to reach out to you, growing up in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You talked in that episode about how like one doesn't ask, one guesses, and one leaves it alone. But you had to ask at some point, some pretty fundamental questions to get yourself up and out of that life. And how did that happen for you?
[00:08:18] Erick: At one point. So when I was 17, I almost left the church. Around that time I remember I got another a once in a lifetime thing that had happened to me. I did a lot of theater work with the University of Utah Theater School for Youth, which is one of the premier youth theater programs in the United States. And we got invited to Soviet Russia for an International Youth Theater Festival.
Hannah: What year was this?
Erick: This was 1990 So I was, yeah. So it was still communist and everything at the time. They still had guards on the streets and all that stuff. Yeah. It was pretty wild. But it was, but it was also kind of the peristroyka thing. So, things were opening up just a little bit. And I remember going over there and at that time I, I kind of like, well, I'm not going to be part of the church or whatever. And, um, and I just remember on that trip feeling a bit, feeling a bit in a strange place because I was tired of how I’d been living in Utah, but here I was in this completely foreign culture. And so I felt like I was much more myself at that point and I didn't fit in with the other kids who two of them I actually went to high school with and they came along with or they were part of the troupe. Um And we were in choir and show choir together. So we spent a lot of time together, but they had their little clique with some of the others, with these two other girls. And I was just like, so it was just kind of me and I was like, well, I'm gonna go hang out with these Russian people because they seem really fun. And they were just like, who's this cool American who's talking to us? And they just thought I was like the…
[00:09:53] Hannah: coolest thing if you were, those were the days.
[00:09:55] Erick:. And so, and so I, you know, I, it was really fun and I hung out with them. I hung out with some of the Germans, um, because I had taken some German in high school so I could talk with them a little bit. Even though they spoke really good, they spoke much better English than I did German at the time. Um, but when I came back, I got sucked back into the church because, you know, when you live in Salt Lake, it's your culture, there's not really a lot you can do about that. Um, ended up going on a mission a year later and which actually was probably one of the best things for me. I went to Austria and so I speak fluent German. I lived in a culture that was very, very different than what I've been brought up with. It was a socialist democracy and we've been told that, you know, good old conservative, you know, capitalist democracy is the only way. And I was just like,
Hannah: Especially in the nineties.
Erick: Yeah. And I'm just like, wait a second, these people are a lot happier than most of the Mormons that I know back home. Why I, yeah, I'm not, I'm not buying this. And so for me that was kind of the beginning of the end. Um But the….
[00:10:53] Hannah: funny thing that really backfired on them,
[00:10:56] Erick: It did in a way. But there were a couple of other things that set it up. Um, number one was, believe it or not. Uh, two things happened. There was the first Iraq war in 1990 and our TV broke. So, and my dad, so my dad was like, you know, for whatever reason, didn't buy us a new TV. You know, even though we had, you know, there was no reason not to, but for whatever reason just didn't. So we're like, well crap, America's at war. Oh, my gosh, we're in a war. Oh, my gosh. So we had to listen to the radio and the best news on the radio was NPR. So I'm listening to NPR and I'm going, ok, these people are telling me the truth, this is what's going on. And so I just kind of got used to going there for the news and when I got back from my mission again, that, that habit kind of came because I'm like, you know, here I was a little more internationally schooled at this point because I've been in two years in Austria. So I was much more aware of the wider world than I had been. And so I wanted to keep up with what was going on in the world. And so that was my news source and then I would find, ok, this is what I heard on NPR but then I read in the local papers, this, you know, this other take on something and be like that doesn't, that doesn't quite jive, I don't, their opinion is incredibly biased and they're, they're discounting a lot of these other facts of things and kind of twisting things around. And I noticed that over time and then I would go check out as, you know, the internet was starting to come up right at this time because it was the early nineties. So I go check other news sources and find out NPR was pretty much as neutral as they come. I mean, they were really on, they were very much very high integrity about it. Let's just lay out the facts. And if we're gonna say our opinion, say this is our opinion on this thing rather than just taking their opinion as fact. And so over time, especially climate change was a big thing for me. So I, I was a big Al Gore supporter even though I was Mormon in which, you know, you're basically default Republican at that point.
[00:12:51] Hannah: Were you allowed to tell anyone or was it like, don't bring it up?
[00:12:53] Erick: I didn't really talk too much about politics with, with that. Um I ended up going to a fairly liberal school for my last two years of college and it had been a Presbyterian School before, and then it reorganized and was a non denominational school. It's called Westminster College. And I found that even though I was still on the conservative side because I was Mormon. I was much more, I found that my viewpoints much more aligned with most of the liberal people that I found there, which was quite a bit, it was kind of like a liberal haven because it was a liberal arts, small, liberal arts college. And so I, it was a really good thing for me. Um, and then I did the whole Mormon thing. I, I got married, you know, way too fast. Somebody I didn't know very well. Um, we ended up getting, we were married for 7.5 years, had two kids and she was a good person. Luckily I didn't marry somebody who was an awful person. And so our divorce was pretty amicable and we, and, uh, you know, my kids grew up to be good kids. So I, I always joke around and I'm like my job was to get you to 18.
[00:13:56] Hannah: You're on your own now, buddy.
[00:13:58] Erick: Got you 18 alive. So, um, but my kids are, my kids are good people and I'm very, I, I, I'm just super happy with who they are and, you know, I'm just, just one of those things and they were pretty good kids all the way growing up, um, and just good people and I worked really hard to be a pretty good parent because my dad wasn't. And so I knew what not to do. And so the bar was kind of low of being a good parent basically just don't do what my dad did and I'd probably be all right.
[00:14:28] Hannah: You talk about that a lot in the podcast too. Yeah. Was, was questioning your dad one of those things that would, like, set him off. What was that like?
[00:14:35] Erick: Yeah. Um, it was kind of like living with an alcoholic but there wasn't a bottle, you know, if I'd had a bottle, it would have been easier to come home and know dad's in a shitty mood, you know, keep cool.
[00:14:47] Hannah: You could have explained it away and just
[00:14:50] Erick: avoid it, somehow avoided it because at least I could
[00:14:53] Hannah: have had a flag. I see.
[00:14:54] Erick: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Some kind of signal of like, stay away from dad tonight. But, and it was hard because there, when he wasn't in one of his moods, he was funny, kind, generous, smart. He was very intelligent, very curious about a lot of things. Um, but, you know, living a double life, you know, because I've mentioned it before so he was bisexual and was having sex with men on the side. Yeah. And so that's why, I mean, yeah. So it's like, well, like
[00:15:27] Hannah: what a tortured way to live, especially in such a dogmatic community.
[00:15:32] Erick: And he, he believed in the church, but then he also had this other life and the two conflicted pretty strongly. So. Yeah. So I recognized that. Um,
[00:15:43] Hannah: well, and it sounds like that was one of your big motivations to get away from that, that was that sense of inner conflict too.
[00:15:51] Erick: Well, it was inter conflict because I had, I had never felt like I was ever good enough. So there was always this feeling that no matter how I live, no matter how I tried, I was just never good enough. And so the whole time I was married, I was on and off with the church. So there were a couple of times where I didn't go for a whole year, then I'd finally go back and I give it a try. But then realized that I never felt like I really fit in or belonged or, and it's the whole thing of, of what a lot of religions do, which is, if you can't live like this, it's because your faith isn't strong enough. You. Exactly. And it's kind of like, you know, it's the whole thing, like with the, the secret, you know, you didn't manifest it because your faith wasn't strong enough o manifest it..
[00:16:35] Hannah: You must not have done it. Right. It's like the system is rigged. Right. The whole thing is rigged because if you do it, you can't really ever do it. Right. But then when you do it wrong, it's because of you. It's not because it's an undoable thing.
[00:16:49] Erick: Yeah. And so for me, I never felt like I, I was good enough for the church. And so we reached a point, um, kind of last year of our marriage where she said, you know, hey, I'm not going to be going to church anymore. It just doesn't work for me. I'm, I'm out and you can go if you want. And so I think I went for another couple of weeks and it was just like, you know what, I'd rather be out cycling. So I'd rather be out on my bike and it was just like I made that decision and I felt physically lighter. Like I was, I actually seriously looked around from him just like, am I floating off the ground here? This is a weird feeling. And I always tell people, I'm like, you know, those big statues out on Easter Island and they're like, yeah, I'm like, imagine feeling like you had one of those on your shoulders and you just brushed it off how light you would feel and they're just like, whoa. And I'm like, yeah, it's a heavy load just to get off your shoulders because you realize that this whole belief system that made you feel like you were a terrible person, your whole life that you were unworthy and you could never live up to these standards. You realized it was just all bullshit. And so you didn't have to live the standards anymore.
[00:17:56] Hannah: Tell me where you came up with the concept of the asking versus the guessing culture and like, how would you define each of those?
[00:18:02] Erick: Um It wasn't me who came up with it. It was the… Yeah, it was on meta filter. Um So I, I stumbled on this. Uh I can't even remember how I found this, but um I think I saw a link towards it and then, you know, somebody mentioned it and so I searched for it, found it on this thing called meta filter, which some kind of Q and A thing, I guess, like for, you know, Quora type of thing. And so they kind of came up with that definition of it. And I was just like, as soon as I saw it, I recognized it and I'm like, oh my gosh. Yes, absolutely. 100% understand this. This makes perfect sense to me. And so I just took it and expanded upon it from my own experience. And it's definitely one that I've gotten a lot of people who are like, oh my gosh, you know, I'm a guesser and my, my wife is a guess my friend, Ben from high school actually sent me a note and he's like, ok, so I'm a guesser and my wife is a guesser and we both figured that out. And so we've, we've been able to work together to, to be a little bit more askers in our relationship, which is great. But how do we help our kids be not guessers? And, and so we're talking a bit about that and, and chatting about it and luckily, first and foremost is he doesn't live in Utah anymore. So that helps right there. So he's in California. And so that made a big difference. And I just said really, it's just about the more honest you can be with your wife about everything and anything. It's an example thing for them that it allows them to be open and honest about those kind of things. And one of the things that I appreciate about my ex partner was that she helped me be a much better parent because she was not a guesser, she was an asker, she helped me be such a better parent for that because she, when the kids were, you know, early teens, she would bring up things about sex, try to embarrass the crap out of them by asking them questions about things um to the point where it was no longer taboo. And so they could then ask us anything they wanted to about sex and it was just fine and they reached a point where they would try and embarrass us with saying things about sex and we just like, oh, you guys are so cute. It's like if we told you what you can't embarrass me. Yeah, it's like, yeah, good one, good one guys but not gonna happen. But because of that, it's really comes down to just being an example of that. And the thing is, is that asking doesn't need to be a bludgeon. It doesn't need to be a cudgel that you use against people and that's what a lot of people have a hard time with directness. They think that it's using it as a weapon because you can be direct and you can still be kind and presentation has a bit to do with it. But some people are just going to be offended no matter what, because it is a direct question. But if you can ask any question with a B with a bit of compassion and a bit of kindness wrapped around it and let them know just saying, hey, you know, the reason why I'm asking this is because this is something I really need to understand about us. Otherwise it's going to cause a lot of problems going forward rather than just going, why, you know, why don't you just tell me, you know, there's a very big difference between those two.
[00:21:09] Hannah: I mean, I have found that to be effective in ending interactions.
[00:21:16] Erick: Ending but not connecting…
[00:21:17] Hannah: yeah, that's definitely a skill I had to learn. I think it's really interesting because if I were to guess, I would say that when you read that you immediately connected with the guesser profile. But when I heard your episode, I immediately connected with the asker profile and like I said, it just immediately put so many past experiences into, into perspective for me and it explained immediately for me so much of the discomfort that I must have been causing people without realizing it. And then in turn, of course, that explains some of the reactions that have mystified me like my whole life
[00:21:50] Erick: Yeah. And what it does is for me, I look at this as a and stoicism in general as a kind of a a meta lens you can view the world through. So it's kind of like honestly to me, stoicism is kind of like Neo in The Matrix where he's going along, he's fighting Agent Smith, he's doing all this stuff and suddenly he like he has that moment where bing, he sees the code behind everything and he goes, oh yeah, this is how it all operates. This makes sense. That person is feeling uncomfortable because they're a guesser and I'm an asker and I just ask him this thing which makes them OK. Now I get that and then you can start to piece all of these things together because you have that ability to not just see the situation for what it appears to be, but for what it really is. And that's what for me, stoicism and philosophy is all about. It's that ability to not just to see what's behind the, what's on the surface, but what's behind the facade.
[00:22:50] Hannah: So, you know, being raised in the Mormon church, you say it, you told me it is based on the Bible, right? The Old Testament and New Testament as we know it theoretically. So I'm very curious because in Judaism, it's just so funny because it, it has become, I'm not sure how to say this. It's almost like an apocryphal truth that sometimes people just don't even question or say anything about, I guess in some ways you could even think about it, like, as a positive stereotype that Judaism is seen as just like about asking questions, right? So often you don't even look into, like, why do people say that? Is it just a cultural thing? Is it like uh Jews are so nosy? And it's like, well, yes, but which came first the chicken or the egg. So I of course looked into it. But a lot of the what we would call like the mid rush, which is the commentary on the scripture um or just general commentary, rabbinical commentary is about how in the very first, the very first person who became a Jew, which is, of course, Abraham, his very first thing that he did was to question God. The very first thing that he did was, you know, try to argue for the saving of, of Sodom and Gomorrah. The very first thing that he did was to push back and say, why have you know, well, let me find this quote right here. Shall the judge of earth not do justice? Says Abraham. And then of course, Moses says, why have you brought trouble on these people to God? Like these are the prophets are saying it directly to God being like, just please don't you know why are you doing this? So it's taken as a Jewish value that you always have the right to question and, and perhaps even more deeply than that, you always have the right to question why. And you know, we see this again carried out in our, one of our most important traditions, which is the Pesa Seder, the meal. The four questions is a really important part of the Seder because that's where from the perspective of someone who knows nothing at all and is perfectly innocent. That's the the um simple child, right? Is what they called it when I was growing up. And then you have the wise child who asks the complicated question where it's like we know the basics. But what about this part? And then you have the wicked child who, which I don't think they call it that anymore. I think it's gotten a little gentler in the language. But when I was growing up, it was still a wicked child. And that child was definitely like, why should I care? You know, which, by the way, a lot of people have that attitude. So let's address that too. And then there's the child who doesn't know how to ask for whatever reason. And we must also formulate an answer for that person. And so that's generally taken as a metaphor for like how we should interact with one another when sharing, when sharing anything, we should be cognizant of all of these different ways of approaching the world or the topic at hand and be able to explain whatever it is that we're talking about or the thing that we're doing or the food that we're eating, you know, whatever it is we're trying to share, we should be able to look at it from all of these perspectives and to address them. And I'm really curious then as a biblical religion, how did Mormonism, at least growing up in your specific experience of that culture as being anti questioning? How did it address this type of, you know, existing narrative in the book? Or was it just glossed over? Was it rewritten? How was it, how was it addressed?
[00:26:29] Erick: Um Basically, they have their own kind of interpretations of most things. And so most times in Sunday school, when questions were asked, it was, it was really less about a rigorous interrogation of the idea and much more about trying to twist things around to fit the narrative that they've already put out. And so as long as they kind of fell within what they taught, you know, the leaders of the church and what was in the Sunday school manuals and so on, then it was acceptable. But if you stepped out of those and said, well and try to be contrarian and say no, actually, I think it's a complete opposite of that or I think it's something completely different over here, it was just kind of like people would be like, um, anyway, back on topic over here, you know, there was just very much this whole, there was very little honest, intellectual inquiry on things and it was much more about finding ways to use what was taught to basically almost cherry picking what you see to, to fit the church line. And we see that in a lot of modern Christianity, they'll pull the things they want out of the Bible to fit their world view to fit their political, you know, viewpoint of things. They don't actually look at it and go well, what did God really want from this? What did God really mean from this? You know what in trying to tease out the meaning of things? It was almost the exact opposite. It was saying, see, here's a place where God tells us this thing and, you know, in the, again, cherry picking all of the evidence of things. What I think we miss out on that is there's a great quote from this guy named Ward Farnsworth and he's a uh a dean at a law school down in Texas. And he's written a number of books on stoicism. He has one called the Socratic Method, a handbook. And in that book, it's fantastic because he talks about the importance of questions and he said, asking questions is about applying pressure, applying pressure is good because it makes you think it, it puts pressure on you to grow, it puts pressure on you to come up with something deeper than what is really there. But giving your opinion is the exact opposite. It's release of pressure. Most people talk in opinions because talking in opinions is much easier. They just tell you what they think about it rather than actually questioning what they think about it. And in Judaism, at least from what I've seen and, and my friends who are Jewish that I've talked to about that and even a good friend of mine who wasn't Jewish, but spent a lot of time, you know, talking to Jews and he um he had a phd in Slavic languages and literature. And so he was just like, he's like, he's like in Judaism, like the first thing is you question God, you know, you watch Fiddler on the Roof. Yeah. He was like, you watch Fiddler on the Roof. Tevya is going, you know, why, why all the time? He's like looking up to God going. I, I don't get this. Why are you doing this to me? You know, I don't understand. And so it's never a and whereas a and so I think that I think that Christian culture is very much a guest culture. It's very much about this is what God wants you to do and they lay it out and you, you, you fill yourself with that culture and anything that, that, that pushes against that is something to be avoided, not something to go, “Wait a second, this is a question…” So my ex partner, uh her dad was a pastor in just a, a fairly mainstream uh uh Christian church. Um But she even talked about that how she went on some of the, the youth retreats where they go and do missionary work and, you know, they go and try and talk to people about this stuff. And she was like, it's, it's almost like you are kind of brainwashed into this, this, this culture, this hypnotic way of thinking about things and then where you're not really supposed to question you're just supposed to do and it's, it's, you know, you, you put on this facade of how you're supposed to fit in with all of these things, even if you disagree with it because you're not really supposed to question those things. And asking those hard questions.
[00:30:28] Hannah: Also you need your social circle, right? Like you can't, we're, we're social animals, we need each other. And if that's the air you breathe, I don't know that you would even know that there was any other way to go about it. That was one of the questions that I had for you is if you're growing up in a culture or a version of a religion or a version of a culture that really impresses upon you that not just to like do the quote unquote right thing and like be good at the religion, for example. But even for you to retain your social connections, how do you even get to where you understand, to where you imagine a different way? You know, I, I really liked, especially in this episode. I felt like you really treated the guessing culture as you call it with a lot of compassion. Um I'm sure obviously you having grown up that way, as you describe it, you kind of know what that like psychology is about, what that lived experience is about what that pressure must feel like.
[00:31:28] Erick: There was always a joke within the church. I don't know if they have it in like Jewish circles. But there was always, you know, the people who, who tried to live it as best, they could almost to a, to a fault, you know, they, they call Peter Priesthoods. And then we had Molly Mormons.
[00:31:45] Hannah: We don't, we do not have that. I think maybe Jews are just like, so we're so like, but I mean, now that I was going to say we're so argumentative and then I was going to say contrarian and then I was like, actually all of those are assignations of a qualitative assessment to the questioning. I think, I think you could really, really take that perspective. And one of the things that really struck me was how you remarked upon how people who are in a guessing culture feel that being asked directly is basically conflict and they're super conflict diverse. And that really resonated with me because I'm obviously like a very direct person. I always have been, I would not say that I have not always been a little bit, you know, drawn to conflict or whatever, but especially now, like in life, I certainly feel that just asking directly and getting to the point is how to avoid conflict because it means I know what we're dealing with. I don't need, and I've said this to people that I've dated, I've said it to friends during arguments or whatever. I don't need you to feel any certain kind of way or think any specific thing. I just need to know how you feel. Then we can operate. Now, we know what the data is and we can make some informed decisions. But my experience, so I lived in the South for 10 years. I would say that a lot of cultures in that part of the country, I would say a lot of perhaps more conservative cultures are guessing cultures rather than asking cultures. And so like living in the South for 10 years, I would call that a guessing culture. And it always, it seemed like any time that I spoke in my characteristically direct way, being raised in a culture that just does that it was taken as a conflict and it caused conflict. And I honestly never understood the directness and the openness and the honesty as a source of someone feeling attacked. And you, you really helped me understand that quite a bit. But yeah, I never understood why people would feel attacked by the directness. What do you think? It feels like such a fear based way of being? I mean, what do you think that fear is about?
[00:34:02] Erick: Um the fear is about being different, being homogeneous, meaning fitting in with the culture was far more important than having truth, having understanding, being authentic. It was about fitting in. It was about, you know, I mean, think of middle school, I mean, it really, it's, it's a very good…
[00:34:24] Hannah: Oh god, my stomach. Ok.
[00:34:25] Erick: Yeah, it's a very middle school mentality where fitting in is more important than being, who you truly are standing out is, is one of the worst things that can happen to you when you're in middle school. I mean, unless, unless it's like being a star athlete or something like that,
[00:34:42] Hannah: Unless you're the cool kid who stands out in the way everyone wants to be cool.
[00:34:45] Erick: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But standing out in your weird sort of way and not being like everybody else. Oh. Wow. Those shoes. Wow. Wow. Those are a statement. You know, those type of things, you know, where you don't want to be noticed for being different, you want to be noticed because you're cool, you want to be noticed because you fit in. Those are the things that, that, in a guess culture. It's much more about fitting in than it is about just being yourself and being honest. And so if you call somebody out by being direct. You're basically, you're ruffling their feathers, you're going well. But I don't understand you're saying this. But I, that doesn't make sense to me. And they just kind of look at you like, well, it's just the way it's, it's done and they can't necessarily explain it because they don't want to have to explain it because, you know, like you said, it is very fear based.
[00:35:38] Hannah: Is it like, what if I'm wrong? Is it like, I don't want to be the one to explain it because then what if I'm wrong? What if I give my explanation? And that's not really why everybody else is doing this at all. Do you think it's something like that?
[00:35:48] Erick: I think a lot of them don't know. A lot of them just don't know why it's done that way. It's just done that way. That's the way it's always been done. So we just continue to do it that way. And so when somebody comes up and says, you know, that's a really stupid way to do that and everybody freaks out and everybody's like, oh my gosh, why are you doing this?
[00:36:04] Hannah: Yeah. It's an interesting thing because when you, when you re enacted it just then it gave me all these flashbacks to people and it made me and I always felt really guilty because it sort of made me like, I could feel their panic, you know what I mean? It's like a little bit of like a panic. I'm like, what, why am I, why am I the one don't ask me? I don't know. And I wonder like, one of the other things that you hit on that really resonated is that, that point of being honest. And I think like, it's, it gets a little complex but it really does come down to if you're not saying what you really feel want or need, not only are you not being honest about your feelings, you're also denying the other person the opportunity to not just share that with you, but provide you joy. So it's like if I say to you, hey, do you want to go out to eat here tonight? And it's like, sure that sounds good. But you really hate that place. You're denying me the opportunity of going somewhere you really would like with you or even coming up with something and being like, I present you with an option that you would like. I love you. This is a gesture of happiness and that is so sad. It just makes me so sad.
[00:37:10] Erick: Well, I mean, and to kind of take a slightly less PG turn. I mean, think about it when it comes to sex, for example, if you don't tell your partner what you like, how are they going to give you what you like? But yet how, I mean, when I was married, I didn't know how to talk to my ex-wife about those things because sex had been so shamed based and so filled with shame about having sex and all of this stuff because you're not supposed to have sex before you're married. And it was just this whole raft of guilt and shame that was piled on top of that, that being able to talk with her about those things was not really even possible. So, after I got divorced and then I wasn't, you know, married and I wasn't in the church anymore. It was like, ok, I'm going to change how I do those things. And so, you know, with my partners, I was very open like I like this. What do you like? And, you know, even then some of them, they were like, I had issues talking about it and because
[00:38:08] Hannah: It’s a weird culture we’re in man…
[00:38:09] Erick: and the funny thing was, is that the guessing culture actually was helpful in some ways because I was much more attuned to body language. I was much more attuned to reading things and the reading their emotions about things. And so I could actually please them fairly well because I was much more in tune that way. So it did end up helping me in a bit of a way. But there's no, no, but my, the ones that usually work the best were like, you know, after we enjoyed each other be like, ok,
[00:38:34] Hannah: what worked? Which is so fun by the way, like the post game is like, super fun. I'm very curious how you, was it a, was it a long road to getting comfortable with that kind of thing or was it more like that was always what you wanted and you couldn't do it? And that was the uncomfortable part until you changed your basically cultural surroundings, your internal culture? Like, do you still struggle with being comfortable with some of that stuff?
[00:39:05] Erick: Um As far as like sex goes, that was, it was a bit of both. It was a little bit of like, it took me some to, to change things and one of those things is because you'll laugh at this. But um there was always this implicit thing that women don't like sex. That was, that was in a
[00:39:22] Hannah: I’m sorry, that is so fucking rude. OK. Go ahead. Yeah.
[00:39:25] Erick: OK. But then it occurred to me and this is going to probably, you know, if you have any Mormon listeners probably going to offend them. But they may find this hilarious too.
[00:39:32] Hannah: They're probably offended by now, they're already offended.
[00:39:34] Erick: But what I figured out one time is I was sitting there thinking about this and I'm just like, wait a second, these are basically the most leaders of the church are the stuffy old windbag white guys. And the reason why they don't think that women like sex is because their wives probably don't like sex with sex with them because they suck at it because they're so self absorbed.
[00:39:55] Hannah: Oh my God, that's very perceptive. Yeah, once again, we return to the like, maybe you should be asking yourself some questions.
Erick: Exactly.
Hannah: OK. So in the episode, in your sign off in your fake sign off episode, that scared me that from 2019, that episode was about self advocacy. And the there's such a tie in there to me between these two things because the not saying what you need or not advocating for yourself is similar. I think in the way of like, not, not questioning, not asking or just not communicating directly because it's inherently dishonest. Like you said, it's fundamentally dishonest not to say what you want and then behave as though you're happy when you're not or not speak up when you're unhappy. And like I said, give the other person who cares about you an opportunity to bring you joy, but it's also giving, not only is it giving away your ability to be happy or be made happy by the other person, it also makes that person responsible for your feelings without them knowing it. And that's not fair. And so it's like, oh, I couldn't have known that I was stamping all over something that really mattered to you because because as a people pleaser or you didn't say anything but you've been resenting me this whole time. And it's been my experience that that usually leads to a blow up and those can be incredibly unfixable. They can really damage relationships. You said that you were a recovering people pleaser, I'm sure this is all tied together to growing up in that culture. Is that an experience that you've had? And how did you get to the other side of it?
[00:41:41] Erick: Oh, I wouldn't say that I'm on the other side of it and I still struggle with that a lot because my natural default is to in, in any conversation where they, where it feels like the other person is angry, annoyed, frustrated, whatever my brain immediately goes to, oh shit. What's the right answer? Like not, what is the, what is the actual answer? What is the honest answer? It's like what is the answer that is going to diffuse this situation? And that comes from one with my dad. I always had to figure out what it was he wanted to hear. So I didn't get beat up and two with the church is “What kind of excuse can I, can I come up, can I come up with so that I don't get in trouble with the bishop?” And so those two things compounding, make it very, very challenging to just be honest about something when somebody is frustrated, annoyed, disappointed with me. And it doesn't even, they don't even have to be angry, just they're frustrated and annoyed with me. So my ex partner, that was one of our biggest challenges and, and one of the things that kind of doomed us was that she would feel frustrated and annoyed about something which she has the right to feel and I would immediately try and change how she felt about it because my default reaction was terror. Oh, my God, she's mad. She's frustrated with me. And because in my past that meant that I was either going to be a, in trouble with the church or be in trouble with my dad and possibly get. beat up.
[00:43:10] Hannah: And that was an existential threat like that was a legitimate danger.
[00:43:14] Erick: Yeah, exactly. And so those are my default reactions and it's been a lot of work to try and change those things and incredibly, incredibly challenging to do because it's so hard wired and from when I was a little kid and so it, it takes so much work just to go, I don't need to control their mood. It's not my job. They can be mad as hell as they want me. That's their problem to deal with. And it's going to be ok and it's so hard to, and, you know, it's going to be ok if I say what I honestly think about things and that's incredibly hard. And I feel for people who are in situations like that because that's the, that's the environment I grew up in. And so that's how I was trained if you will. And it's almost like a hardwired system and so becoming aware of that and learning how to take that beat and just be like, “The right answer here is the honest answer. Even if the other person doesn't like it, it's ok because it's the truth.”
[00:44:16] Hannah: There can be no other answer. This is what it is. Yeah. That's really freeing and it's really, but it's, it is also really scary even for, for, for me. Right? Because like at the end of the day, like, even people who are raised in a culture that values that type of, I mean, Jews are often characterized as being brash or rude, which is like, I don't know if you've been to Israel but like not incorrect. But anyway, but that's not Jews, that's Israelis. I would like to say by the way, there is a difference in any case, the being characterized that way. Again, it comes from this really directness. But even for someone like me who's raised in that, like, I still don't want to hurt people that I care about. Like I would love it if the answer that I think you want was the answer. I've just learned personally over my life that like, I can't be anything else. I can't do anything else. I could, you know the the one word that used to haunt me so much, especially as a young woman. Um a young single woman was like, why can't I just be demure? It's never gonna happen. I'm never gonna be a quiet like leaning against the wall being mysterious like there's no mysterious is the last thing I'm ever gonna be. You're always gonna know exactly what I'm thinking about and, and I, I wanted that for myself so badly and I do understand that impulse. I think it's really, really human in the same way that it's like you would stay inside these guessing cultures, even if, like, maybe not necessarily, even if you did know that there was another way because again, the thing that keeps you there is those social is that social netting and you lose everything if you lose that and and nobody really wants to just be alone out in the world. And if you don't know that there's another way to be. And by the way, a whole group of people doing it and enjoying it, how can you know that it's safe? And that also goes back to another point that you raised. I think you were very honest about it now too. And you brought it up in the episode too of like, it's also inherently manipulative to not just say it to not just ask it to not just say, you know what when you did X, it made me feel Y or if I ask you when I did X, did it make you feel Y to skirt the answer or not give the answer. If you want to look at it from the perspective of for example, someone who may have experienced some like narcissistic emotional abuse where it's all about trying to control the situation. It could even be seen as that at the very, very least, even if, what you're trying to do is make somebody feel better, quote unquote. It's still trying to manipulate someone else's feelings and that inherently digs away at their human dignity at their right to have their own lived experience at their right to feel however they want to feel.
[00:47:01] Erick: Yeah, it's ultimately about trying to manipulate the other person
[00:47:04] Hannah: for your own comfort in a lot of ways too.
[00:47:07] Erick: And it's that whole social cohesion of trying to fit in and trying not to, not to uh to rock the boat. I mean, my brother went to his mission on to Japan and they have a saying there it's like the tallest nail gets the hammer. So, and yeah, and then I heard that I went, oh, I see.
[00:47:27] Hannah: So it's just humans. We're the worst.
[00:47:31] Erick: Well, it's just people, people and especially people with a, who have subjected a population or a group to a type of culture because it affords them power. They don't, they want to keep that in play. And that's so you said, you know, it comes from a place of fear and it's because the people in charge have enforced these norms to keep people in fear in order to keep control over them. I mean, that's really what it comes down to
[00:48:00] Hannah: Whether that's a state or a church or a. Yeah, I see. I see what you're saying. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Erick: If one person down there gets this idea, they could spread to a couple of other people and pretty soon you have hundreds or thousands of people with this idea. And so they want to crack down on that and the way to do that is through that kind of social pressure. And so, you know, it's really very much about control and it's really hard to get people to see that because it's, it's kind of like telling a fish about water, you know, that David Foster Wallace, he has a whole essay on that where he talks about, it starts off with the joke is like, you know, older goldfish is swimming along down the stream and he sees two other goldfish and he goes, “Hey, boys, how's the water?” And then one of the goldfish turns the other and says, “What, what's water?” Yeah.
[00:48:49] Hannah: Oh, I love that. That's, that's, that's huge perspective
[00:48:53] Erick: And it's really hard for us to see the everyday assumptions that we make in our lives because we are so close to them. And because we just assume this is the way it is. And that's why traveling, I think, and living in other cultures, especially cultures that are vastly different than your own is one of the best things you can do for yourself.
[00:49:11] Hannah: Amen. So how's it going now? I mean, would you say that you, as you say, you wouldn't say you're on the other side of it. Ok. How do you deal with setting and communicating your boundaries these days? And would you say what has been the outcome or improvement if, if that is the right word in your life of learning to be more of an asker than a guesser and less of a people pleaser. How's that going?
[00:49:42] Erick: I think overall, I think overall pretty good, it's still, I don't have any close romantic relationships right now. And I think that's where it springs up the most. Um, especially because the women I'm attracted to are generally much more, uh, much more intelligent. So they are stronger willed. So my last partner was very strong willed. Had a good understanding of people asked lots of questions. My ex-wife always asked lots of questions, which was challenging because my dad would use questions as a, as a cudgel. He would ask questions to try and get you in line and you had to figure out what was the right answer to that question.
Hannah: It was a, it was a trap.
Erick: It was a trap, yeah. And so which made it really hard for both my ex-wife and my partner and that they would do the same thing but not meaning to try and trap me. But they were trying to ask me questions. And I would be like, oh, and I'd be squirming in my seat and lash out because of that. So it's one of the things that I, I have, I know that I have to work on and continue to work on because the type of women I'm attracted to are the intelligent askers. They are the ones and it's funny they're mostly introverts. Not that they have to be, but generally fairly strong willed and intelligent and they're askers and maybe it's because that's what I need. And so even though it's hard, I still go, ok, I'm gonna do this, even though this is going to be challenging, we are going to have conflict. You know, I put myself in that situation because I think there's that part of me which knows that I will grow from that and I will learn from that. And I mean, I cycle now and it's kind of the same thing, like, you know, I'll go out for a 20-30 mile ride and people are just like, wow, how do you do that? And I'm like, I get on my bike, like, can I peddle.
I just keep going.
[00:51:25] Hannah: Just keep going. Just keep swimming.And they're like, what is water?
[00:51:29] Erick: It's like, and it's hard, but it's, I know that I'm not going to grow in the ways that I want to if I don't push myself like that. And so I think in, you know, my romantic relationships kind of the same way, like I don't want somebody who just is a pushover who doesn't challenge me, who doesn't think who doesn't have those kind of things because I'm not interested in that. I want somebody who's going to be, you know, and going to make me grow.
[00:51:53] Hannah: Would you say that your ability to be in meaningful relationships, whether it's friendships or otherwise has been improved by becoming more of a asker and less of a people pleaser.
[00:52:03] Erick: Oh, absolutely. I'm much more clear about what I want and aside from my ex partner, just because we've, we built up so many of those patterns that when we get around each other, sometimes we push each other's buttons way too easy. I mean, we all know that, you know, it's like good intentions of like, no, no, no, I'm, I'm better than that. I can be better than that. But then we get around each other and
[00:52:27] Hannah: you're doing it before you even notice you're just,..
[00:52:30] Erick: It's like, yeah, it's like your siblings, you know, how to push those buttons really easy. Um But because I'm much more aware of that now going into any kind of relationships I can, you know, I can step up and be like, ok, you know, I'll ask for one, I'll be very clear about this and just be like, you know, this doesn't work for me, whatever it is you're doing here and just being ok with that, but also just being incredibly honest up to the point that they're comfortable. Um
[00:52:57] Hannah: and also accepting that whatever their response is, is going to be their response. I mean, one of the most important things that I ever learned was like, we're not choosing between consequence, no consequence. We're choosing always between consequences.
[00:53:12] Erick: It's like which one are we choosing that there's going to be or not be?
[00:53:16] Hannah: Am I choosing to say this thing that might hurt you? But at least then we know what we're dealing with and we might be able to talk and get past it or am I choosing to never say this thing and end up in a place where it's unresolvable because I'm so far down this, this tunnel of resentment, you don't even know how to unpack all this. You didn't even know this was happening.
[00:53:35] Erick: Yeah. Yeah. And the whole thing is as well is that, that, that's also a filter. You know, you throw it out there and if somebody can't handle that, that's a pretty clear sign that they aren't your person or they aren't somebody that you want to be with
Hannah: Worked for me.
Erick: I mean, I've had, I've had that where there's some people where it's just like, you know, this is who I am and if you can't handle this and this isn't what you want. Fine. That's great. Yeah, I'm not for everybody but I'm especially for me. Somebody once said.
[00:54:04] Hannah: Oh, nice. I like it. Well, on that note, this was amazing. Thank you so much for this. Thanks for listening to Jew Ish. If you like what you hear, please give us a follow and don't forget to tell a friend who might be a little Jew curious. It really is the best way to help people find us. Also, make sure you check out the show notes for a glossary of terms you might have heard in this week's episode. Jew-ish is a Say More production.
[00:54:39] Erick: So that's the end of this week's episode. I hope that you enjoyed the conversation that I had with Hannah and as always be kind to yourself, be kind to others. and thanks for listening.
Lastly if you know of someone that would benefit from or appreciate this podcast, please share it. Word of mouth is the best way to help this podcast grow. Thanks again for listening.
