Erick: Hello friends. Welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. My name is Erick Cloward and today. Unlike most of my podcast episodes, I have a guest on here. I like to bring on guests from time to time who I think have something interesting to say, who can possibly add some value to my podcast and my, and your lives as well.
And today I'm talking with Dr. Erik Fisher. So I will let Erik go ahead and introduce himself. So you're going to get two Erick's for the price of one today. Although he missed, although he's got his name misspelled, he's missing a letter, but that's okay.
Erik: Well, actually, my parents, uh, they it's, it's Erik with a K the Norwegian way, as they always told me. So they always liked that spelling, but, uh, it's a pleasure to meet you, Erick. And for all your guests, it's an honor to be on the show. Um, I am a psychologist. I've been a psychologist for, uh, three decades.
I have a few books out. That one is the. Art of Managing Everyday Conflict. And the other one is the Art of Empowered Parenting, the manual you wish your kids came with. I also have a podcast called Emotional Algebra with Dr. E. Um, what I do, I talk about the ways that we look at emotions and power and the intersection between hierarchical and equity models of power, as I call them, and then really helping people to see the value of this.
So what I'm looking forward to talking about with Erick and y'all today is really, you To me, the logical side of each emotion. I teach about the concept of emotional specificity as well. And that says that every emotion has a purpose. They're there to teach us things, tell us things, show us things, do things for us, or help us do things for ourselves.
And each emotion has a singular purpose on that. So with that, again, I think we're going to have a great conversation today. And again, it's an honor to be here.
Erick: Thanks for being on the show. So with what you've just described, um, how much, how much of that do you think has been influenced by stoicism or is this just more something you've come through, through your studies? Uh, I know the cognitive behavioral therapy and ACT and some of the others, uh, were based off of stoic philosophy.
So the idea that understanding that it's your thinking around things that causes your emotions. And so if you can understand your thinking, then you're going to be able to manage emotions much better. So.
Erik: Well, you know, I actually look at that in reverse, because if you look at our first language that we are born with, it is emotion. When we don't understand language, we don't understand words, I think we really have budding thoughts. So when I talk about my models of development, and I say what happens when we're born in the world, our first experience is our emotion.
Whether we feel sad or we feel maybe hunger might then result in some sadness or some rejection, abandonment or anger, and then we might feel afraid the next time we're going to eat. So as we have these experiences, then we experience emotions. From our emotions then we produce behavioral output. Then from our behavioral output we receive feedback from the world which gives us a loop of our emotions re rewarded in essence and what I say our hierarchical model as being seen as good or bad, right or wrong, stronger weak and do they help us basically win or lose and that the basis that win or lose is about survival or not and beyond that I say that we are we wish just to thrive beyond just surviving. So I kind of look at a reversal of that and the the value of that whole experience is, as we can understand, which we're often not taught, how emotions do affect thought, and then thought affects emotions, we affect our neurochemistry, we affect our attitudes and beliefs, we affect the ways we respond to the world, our impulse control.
There's so many things that we can do, but teasing all that out for each purpose is again, you know, why I talk about that concept of, of emotional algebra and looking at how all these variables. Interplay and intersect and what are their relationships? Right,
Erick: Kind of like the Stoics. They talk about the idea of impressions and dissent, meaning that first off something happens, then you have an impression about that. An impression is, uh, anything you, uh, Basically anything that you sense, it could be your five senses. It could be your internal sensations as well.
So like if you're nervous about something, you have those butterflies in your stomach and that based upon the impressions that we have, then we have some kind of thinking around that. So it could be, um, You know, it could be as unconscious thinking as well as meeting patterns that we've developed over time that are just automatic but it also means that our conscious thinking around something and those are the things that actually then the emotions come from that combination of those impressions with the thinking that goes around that and And again, sometimes it's that lightning, unconscious thinking that goes with it.
And then we actually have an emotion. So for example, if you do have those butterflies, because you're going to get up in front of a thousand people and sing, one person might feel nervous because their perspective on it, their thinking around it is a Oh my gosh, what if I fail? Whereas somebody who, you know, could be very excited about the exact same situation is because their perspective, their impression is, Oh my gosh, this is so amazing! I get to sing in front of all these people and share my talent and I love music so much, you know, so one is excited. The other one's nervous. It's the same sensation, just a different perspective on that.
Erik: Right. And I think order and effect is, uh, is a definite, uh, issue to, to look at. And that again, I think that's, that's the interesting part of the discussion is how, uh, we often lead to the same outcomes in that. And at the same time aren't, you know, can't always again digest or, or assess what is the order or of the variables in there.
And that's where, again, I think it leads to some good discussions in this.
Erick: Okay, so I know that you have a podcast, um, called Emotional Algebra, and maybe you can kind of run down what you talk about on there, and what do you think are the most important things, and probably I guess the, the hardest things that people are struggling with these days. You know, we talk a lot about emotions, uh, especially with Stoics, but we see that there almost seems to be,
I'm trying to think of the right word for it, uh, Um, there seems to be a lot of, I can feel my emotions and just, you know, kind of dump it all out there and not really have to do anything about that. You know, uh, some people, for example, I mean, self care was very important for a while and for a while that was very helpful.
It was like, Hey, set boundaries for yourself and those kinds of things. And then it became an indulgence after that, rather than being something that was helpful, it was, Oh, I'm practicing self care because I'm doing this and it's, it became almost an excuse.
Erik: Right. Well, and that's, that's exactly why I looked at and developed those ideas of hierarchical versus equity models of power Because hierarchy is all about everybody has a different level of power And the issues that come with hierarchy are what I call the four dichotomies which are good or bad Right or wrong strong or weak and win or lose And in that, you know as I mentioned before we then want to see how do we organize our life?
What is our primary dichotomy? You And as we understand our socialization into hierarchy and basically to me I say we are born into equity Equity is about balance equity is not about equality because I find and believe that when people find equity They don't they're not as interested in equality because they feel they're different gifts strengths weaknesses handicaps knowledge wisdom experience and understanding of are respected. There's a fear based respect and hierarchy and there's a love based respect and equity.
So in that also, the way that we look at our emotions is through that hierarchical lens. Failure, shame, guilt, sadness, inadequacy, unworthy. Those are emotions that are primarily seen as bad and or wrong and or weak. We look at emotions like anger, rage, arrogance, flippancy, defiance, sarcasm, and hatred. Those emotions are seen as bad and wrong, but strong.
So if we look at conflict, what emotions do we often orient ourselves to, but what I call those one or one or more of those seven protective emotions, and that's their purpose from an equity standpoint, hierarchy. Hierarchically, though, it's about winning and using those emotions at all cost.
The other thing we want to look at from almost a stoic side of using logic is I also say we have logical defenses. And those cognitive or logical defenses, rationalization, justification, minimization, denial, projection, projective identification, there are a number of them, but that's where we're using things Thought and logic.
So as we get into the idea of emotional algebra, that's where I'm helping people to see how is your relationship and the relationship. I've talked about politics. I've talked about the NIL and in college sports, uh, and how they started paying players. I talked about rivalries in sports. I talked about things that I think people can grasp onto that.
Then we can really dive into where. Are these the individual's beliefs who are my guests and where are the beliefs coming from? That are also the the viewers so that the viewer can look in and start to explore themselves so if we now take and extend from that hierarchical view of emotion Well, what would be the purpose of failure failure tells me when it's time to learn guilt Let's me know when i've done something to somebody else.
I need to fix Shame lets me know when I've done something to myself I need to fix. Confusion lets me know when I need more information. Stupid, to me, which is a big one, is basically what I say algebraically as failure times x. So what do I mean by that? Well every time we feel failure if we aren't able to learn from that and apply that Then the next time we do the same thing or the next time sometimes even we fail we might feel stupid. Stupid is only trying to say let's look at all those experiences of that feeling of failure and let's see what you can learn from each experience, and or are you doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
Even as we look at the idea of overwhelm as an emotion, a lot of people today are feeling really overwhelmed. Well, overwhelmed never comes first as an emotion. It never comes alone either. So with overwhelm often comes failure, stupid, helpless, helpless over time often leads to hopelessness. Then we have, um, confused and doubt all these emotions that feed overwhelm. So all overwhelm is saying is, let me back up. And let's dissect these experiences that you're feeling overwhelmed with because what I always tell people You know, I was asking him. How do you eat an elephant? You know that answer one bite at a time, you
know So that's how I look at overwhelmed is basically that elephant is sitting on top of them and either they're feeling Buried under the elephant or they're trying to run like heck away from it And I think that emotions are again are telling us to face our life To face our experiences So, even in that, let's, you know, fear, to me, one of the most powerful emotions out there is it's just telling you, you might need to protect yourself. And that's another important piece to see is what are all the derivatives of fear even in that as we, as we look at, to me, the three core emotions that exist are love, fear, and pain and all other emotions are derivatives of those three.
Erick: Yeah. Yeah, I can definitely see that. Uh, one of my favorite things is to kind of look at that wheel of emotions and see where they overlap. And there was one that I, I found that I really liked and it, it basically showed the relation of emotions, but then it showed how your judgment of what that emotion is.
You know, the same sensation, but different feeling. Like we were talking about nervous versus excited. You know, it's the exact same feeling, but it's that nervousness and that excitement. So stoicism talks a lot. Sorry, go ahead.
Erik: Yeah, You brought up an excellent point because I once had somebody years ago who said I've they had experienced a lot of trauma in their life and and they said, I would love to be able to know what it's like to feel excited for something because for so long I grew up and I had whenever I felt that feeling of of trauma or terror, something bad was going to happen. I also thought these are things I should feel excited about it. But my mind, my, my, my being, my belief systems have overlapped so much into whenever I feel this feeling, I have to be ready for something bad to happen that I don't look forward to things because I almost feel afraid to feel that feeling.
Erick: Yeah, I can. I can definitely relate to that. I had a, uh, I. A very distinct, uh, uh, instance. This was, I think, back in high school, I was at a concert up in Park City. Cause I grew up in Salt Lake city and I was up in Park City and I was having a good time and I was really enjoying it. I was with my friends and my brother and we were, you know, and I remember feeling very happy.
And then I, I went to the bathroom and I was thinking about, wow, I'm so happy. This is so good to feel this happy. And then I suddenly had this voice in the back of my head. It said. Are you sure you're happy? Are you just faking it? You know, and it was like, it talked me out of being happy because I was on guard most of the time because my dad was, uh, pretty violent growing up, but not all the time.
It was very random and it was maybe like 20, 30 percent of the time, but you never knew when that 20 or 30 percent was coming. And so always on guard all the time. And so I didn't feel like I was allowed to be happy or excited about something, because I always had to be on guard. And so it was like I talked myself out of being happy, which was a very, And I, I still remember that succinctly because I was like, why is this happening? This, this shouldn't be the case. You know, I, I can be happy and excited. Why, why did I just suddenly shoot, shoot the whole thing down?
Erik: Right, right. Yeah, and that's that's how those belief systems they do to me It's energy and that energy with us It's almost like living because we have many many different thoughts and beliefs and attitudes that are often competing For expression and we can consciously only express one attitude or belief system at a time And it's like to me when i'm working with people we start getting into their deeper stuff There's Sometimes they'll say it's so noisy in here.
I'm like, what's it sound like? It's like I hear the yelling almost literally I hear everybody arguing So that's where then as we bring help them to bring out either one by one As you're able to identify the multitude of times throughout your history that you experience that fear And then you you see it in this one circumstance That's where often what i'm asking people to do Is I say what age do you feel when they experience something in the present? And often they're like, well, what are you talking about? I'll say, well, what age does that feel like? And they often need to stop a sec. And they, they see that there's this overlap.
What is what's called an affect bridge. Affect bridges, meaning the, uh, the connections of emotions through experiences over time. And then when they get to that affect bridge, then we kind of walk across that bridge to find what are the most. Salient experiences. First that I resonate with that emotional constellation and or those series of experiences. And sometimes when we do healing, I do a lot of work with hypnosis and things like that. I do ketamine assisted psychotherapy, um, is helping people to not only heal those experiences, but to define the emotional themes because I also look at emotions as being frequencies. And as we look at emotions from a quantum physics standpoint, and we see that each emotion has a frequency. And then these constellation of emotions are basically complex disruptions of all these frequencies.
That's where it can become noise. So in that we're helping them to ease those disruptions to return those emotions and that that frequency to its resting state. And in that I say, imagine each emotion is a note on the piano. If you hit that note on the piano, it's going to make a sound. It's going to ping, you know, if, if in, in a, in a non gravitational space, once an object is placed in motion, it remains in motion until acted upon by an equal and opposite force. So basically that emotion is pinging until it is returned to its resting state. So pain based and fear based emotions are returned to their resting state.
In other words, the The damper is able to be pressed on that key on the keyboard with love. So as we learn to love that part of us, love that emotion, not see it as a problem. Instead, see it as part of the solution. Then we start to find the easing of those disruptions. Then we see symptoms subside. I've had people who had medical issues resolved with, with that work.
So it's, it's, it's been, uh, Such a rewarding experience and, uh, such a rewarding career to me to see a lot of these shifts change. So yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that experience.
Erick: So I'm curious, what are the most effective techniques that you've found for people to, to develop that objectivity? Because that's something that took me a long time, even though I'm a very rational person, because of the chaotic childhood that I had growing up, you know, I would just, I would get angry at random things, you know, or things that were very small.
And with my ex wife and my ex partner, we would end up in these huge arguments, oftentimes over very small things. And it wasn't until really this last year or two that I, you know, I haven't been dating anybody. I just kind of took my time and I've just been working through a lot of those things. Um, You know, using that stoic objectivity to try and dig deeper into those types of emotions and understand where they came from and where that fear was coming from.
And really what it came down to for me was that I felt like if my partner or my ex wife was upset with me, annoyed with me, or frustrated or angry with me, that rather than, than them just feeling that emotion about the situation, that it was them not loving me. Because that's how, that was the message I got as a kid, that when my dad was angry, Or annoyed or frustrated or any, any negative emotion with him.
He didn't love me. That was it. And so, you know, we were getting into an argument about something small and it would turn into this huge thing, not because of the thing, but because of this, you know, again, what the Stoics say, it's not the thing that upsets you, but the significance that you attribute to the thing that causes your distress.
And, but I didn't understand what it was until I finally, like, Oh, because I was afraid in these situations. I wasn't mad. I was afraid and I was trying to convince them that they should still love me. And that's what I was arguing for. Like, why don't you love me is really what I was, what the argument was about.
But I didn't understand that myself until quite some time. So I didn't mean to kind of hijack that. But that objectivity was very challenging for me to, to get to. How do you, are there any tools that you have? I know you mentioned ketamine before, and I've done that twice in my life. And I remember one time I had this acceptance of the universe is happening exactly the way that it's supposed to happen, that everything is doing what it should be doing and is in its place.
And there was a sense of peacefulness that I, you know, when I heard they started using it for therapy, I was like, absolutely. It allows you to step away from that. But non drug treatments, what do you, what are tools that you have and what are ways that you recommend people do that?
Erik: You know, I find the first step is that education, that first step for me, you know, I've had people who after one session, like I had a guy come in yesterday. You know, a lot of anxiety and things going on. Um, and he left like, this is great. You know, he says, I feel like I can see a way out. And that's because as we start to understand, Get the hierarchical nature of our culture, the how to move, why we're moving to equity, that each emotion has a purpose and a reason for being there that often people in life feel like a pinball bouncing off the bumpers and or then they want to be the bumper to other people in life.
And that's where the whole idea of control, as I know, Stoics talk a lot about control, but to me, Control is an illusion based in fear, and I know I've, I heard you talk about that that what you saw or what what Stoics talk about the only things you control, we don't even we don't control our emotions. That's we can't control them because they again, like I said, almost have an energy and life of their own. We compete with them. We might manage them. We might bury them. But even as we bury them again, every action creates an equal and opposite reaction. So those emotions that are trying to fight their way up.
What I loved about your story was your, your introspection and going in and finding the triggers. You, you basically explored your emotional algebra, which was great. So as we start to again, look at those first more logical steps of why do we feel what we feel and what those purposes are. That's why I, I believe that's why I'm looking so forward to this discussion because I would say I talk about stoic emotions. You
know that as we see these emotions and their purpose it's that's where we find That there is no waste because through doing Ketamine work and that's why I say ketamine assisted psychotherapy There are a lot of people who have some good experiences with ketamine. There are some people who don't Don't have good experience.
They can have really scary experiences. It can actually almost retraumatized them.
So I really feel like people need assistance in the process. It's important of assistance after the process to integrate what's coming up and I truly believe that this universe is is happening for us that this this human existence is emotion school and as we learn again the purpose and logic of each emotion or as might say the stoic reasoning behind each emotion.
Maybe look at it that way. Then we find the ability to. Manage the experiences because we're not so interested in control. So what helps people a lot is changing their assessment of what control is. And really they have none and letting go. Finding faith. And I believe that faith is the gap between fear and control. and absolute truth. And that's where we're finding our way to our truth. And, and stoicism to me was really about seeking and finding truth at at the expense of emotion, I would say. And that's, that's with all due respect. So I wonder, what are your thoughts on that comment?
Erick: Well, yeah, and that's, again, that's the whole problem with the perception of Stoicism. Um, my last podcast was about Stoicism versus Broicism. So Broicism is kind of what's being propagated out there. And that's that idea that you can control your emotions and all you have to do is clamp down on it and you're fine.
And the Stoics, what they talk about in the dichotomy of control is the only thing that you really control are the way that you perceive things, the choices you make, and the actions you take. That's it. So you, you have these sensations come up. What you can control is your judgment about what that sensation was.
And that's why I use that nervousness versus excited as kind of like a very, very simple example of that. If your perspective is, oh my gosh, I'm so excited out here that you have the exact same sensation. It's your judgment about that sensation that causes the issue. And so stoics are not about denying emotions at all.
It's about managering your emotions by managing your thinking and being objective and taking that. Being able to step back from the heat of that emotion and look at it objectively saying, okay, what's really underneath all of this? What's the, what's the trigger that's going on? And that's that objectivity is where you really have the strength and the power.
And what happens is that over time, somebody who was a true stoic was more like a Zen master, meaning things would happen where other people would be losing their shit and running around like a chicken with their head cut off. And the Zen master is just like, Okay. You know, they're like, what's wrong with you?
You don't, you have an emotional response. And there's some, you know, the Zen master, the Stoic master is like, Oh, I still feel the emotion, but I don't let it run me. And because I recognize that emotions there, then rather than running around and feeling, you know, just. You know, reacting like everybody else is and losing control of myself, I can keep control of myself because I understand this emotion and I understand what it's trying to tell me.
And so we can partner together. We can work together. When that fear comes up, I know to be cautious. If I can look at that fear and go, Oh, this isn't something that can actually harm me. And they look at emotions as things that, that, are like clouds. They just, they come through and then they disappear. You know, you, how you feel this morning isn't necessarily how you're going to feel this afternoon.
So don't let that be the thing that governs everything you do, but it can be a partner. It can be something that signals those things, because if you're feeling fear, if you're feeling distress, if you're feeling anxiety, like you said, there's signals and there are things that should be integrated into you, not ignored.
And so there's that misperception that Stoics ignore it. It's that they are actually really good at integrating it so that it doesn't overwhelm them.
Erik: Mhm. And I think in that that's that maybe something that hasn't been communicated because I'm listening to some different stoic speakers and reading some of the things that I've read on it and is It seems like it's often presented as a very simplistic approach And I would wonder how many people who might be viewing almost feel like i'm failing at this I'm not doing it right because I can't do this.
I can't eliminate this motion This belief system keeps coming back and I would I would want to maybe ask you about the aspirational pursuit of stoicism for many people versus this dichotomy of i'm i'm able to become a stoic like that You And, or do you see it as almost the rainbow or progression on the journey?
Erick: Oh, it's a very long progression because when I started studying Stoicism about nine years ago, um, me and my ex partner still got into arguments. That's why we're no longer together is because even though I was practicing Stoicism and I could apply it in so many parts of my life, there were still so many triggers that I hadn't been able to uncover and to really deal with in a very healthy way up until that point.
And she basically just got to the point where she was fed up and, and that was it. And, uh, you know, and I don't, I, I'm not angry about that because I understand that and I felt powerless to my emotions at that time because I felt like here I know all of these things and yet I'm not behaving in a way that I'm proud of and I'm not sure how to change that and so stoicism is about, like I said, it's about understanding what you can control.
It's not that stamping out of emotions because that's not what it's there. It's about understanding that you're thinking around these emotions and that oftentimes the negative emotions are caused by errors in your thinking. So, you know, it's when anxiety happens, oftentimes it's worrying about things that might happen in the future, but you treat them as if they're going to happen in the future, that catastrophizing.
And so you're giving yourself anxiety. because you've made a judgment about what the future is going to be like that may never happen and probably won't happen the way that you think it will happen. So you're just causing your own distress. And that's a misjudgment. That's an error in your thinking. And that's what the Stoics wanted you to do is get that objectivity, find those errors in your thinking, figure out, figure out why those emotions are there.
Because if the emotion is proper, you know, again, if you're feeling fear and it's a, and it's a situation where you should feel fear, that's not an. Even though you might consider it a negative emotion, it's not an inappropriate emotion for that case,
Erik: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm
Erick: Then the other thing is also understanding that when, just because you have an emotion doesn't mean that it can actually hurt you. And oftentimes we feel overwhelmed by our emotions because we're afraid of them and we feel like they can hurt us. It's like one of my favorite life coaches said, she, she used the term that an emotion is just a vibration in your body. It can't actually hurt you.
Erik: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's great. Great guidance. And that's where again, to find the positive purpose of everything, even in your saying that the in your experience of that everything in the universe is as it should be, then our journey through every experience Serves purpose our our journey through every feeling emotion Deaths loss tragedies traumas serves a purpose and that's why I say this existence here is emotion school And learning as we learn to to bring together Emotions with logic and with with with the ability to reason with them not have power over them But have power with them even as I look at anxiety, you know, you we've talked a lot about anxiety I look at the core emotion to a lot of Psychological diagnoses.
I look at the core emotion of anxiety is helplessness There are other secondary and tertiary emotions to that But helplessness to me is the core and helplessness is saying help me That's all that says is I need help and where we don't feel we have help Yes, we're going to feel afraid of the next moment and the next moment and the next moment and what's the future going to bring? the core emotion to depression is hopelessness and I call um relationally I call helplessness and hopelessness cousins because helplessness is a fear based emotion Hopelessness is a pain based emotion. The more I feel helpless, the more likely I am to feel hopeless. Guilt
and shame, yeah, and guilt and shame I call the brothers, because guilt lets us know when we've done something to somebody else that we need to fix, and shame lets us know when we've done something to ourself we need to fix. I might feel guilt when And I'm always going to feel shame However, I may feel shame And not necessarily feel guilt because I can dishonor myself in a behavior without Dishonoring or even a thought without dishonoring anybody else In our hierarchical culture though Why do why do people? Deny things they feel guilt and shame about because it's used as a weapon guilt, shame, failure, stupid, embarrassment, humiliation.
Those are all pain based emotions They're often used as weapons starting in our family just as you talked about with your dad what your core experience was was likely? Shame and then guilt. Shame, the biggest sin we commit to ourself is believing we're not lovable. And then what are the reverberations of that throughout our soul, throughout our being, throughout our perceptions of life. Then in order to be lovable, I've hierarchically given my power to be loved.
To other people and if I don't feel that they can love me then how can I love me and that is a very rational logical conversation with those emotions in between those emotions. So, you know in at the beginning, you know earlier when you asked me the question that kind of led us on this great discussion, is I would want to help you we're first starting through logically making the connections of, “What age do you feel when you started to feel that feeling of feeling unloved?”
It was probably just an emotional that affect bridge. You felt that reverberation inside of and when you felt fear, then what came up your protective emotions, anger, maybe rage. Arrogance could have I don't need you defiance. You can't make me do this sarcasm. Oh, yeah, you think you're so great hatred hatred Pushes us away from things that we feel have caused us pain are causing us pain and or could cause us pain That's all hatred is about but how can we?
Sort through these emotions when It's when at that point protective emotions are only about survival So the fact that you got to your underlying fear And saw all that and saw that it was about not feeling loved and the fear of not feeling loved That was great work that you did on your own. So again, a lot of people have a hard time getting there on their own and or can't sort that through. So that's where again definitely I think that This marriage kind of between, like I said, emo emotional algebra, potentially is a derivative of stoicism even
Erick: Yeah, absolutely. I think they're Yeah, there's so many concepts that are overlapping. So yeah, I, I, I definitely agree with that. And that's part of why I really, part of why I do this podcast is because I am working through all of those things. I recognized that, you know, like we said, we talked about before I recognized those things that had caused me so much pain before. And so the podcast for me has been a way to work through. I work through all of those. I joke around and call this my public therapy because,
Erik: Yeah.
Erick: you know, I, I put a lot of stuff out there and, you know, and I don't, and I don't really, I try not to sugarcoat things because I want things to be honest. I want them to be true.
And that's, you know, and people ask me like, Oh, are you making lots of money on the podcast? I'm like, no, I don't on the podcast itself. And like, then why do you do it? I'm like, because this has been my way to work through all of this shit that I've been through in my life. And if I've been through that kind of shit, I know plenty of other people have.
And so by sharing this. You know, by not sharing this, I would be doing a disservice to, you know, to people out there. And by willing my willingness to work through this stuff and by writing it down and journaling and meditating and doing all of this work in order to get there, you know, it's a lesson I've learned.
And because one of the things that I've learned to be pretty good at is to take these difficult ideas and explain them in a way that is much more accessible. When I was in tech, I kind of would do the same thing. I was a software developer for 25 years and a CTO. Part of the reason why I was so successful in my career was because I could take very difficult technical things and explain them to non technical people in a way that actually made sense to them.
And so oftentimes, I would be at trade shows and I'd hand people my card and it would say CTO on it. And they're like, wait, you're a tech guy? You're not the sales guy? Cause I actually had a conversation with you and I understood what you got, what you were talking about. This is great. And so it kind of took that same skill and put that into the podcast.
Um,
Erik: Yeah, I definitely think that we're, we're, yeah, I definitely think we're kindred, kindred spirits in that, in that whole situation, because I, I do the same. I want to help simplify a lot of these concepts for people that seem so difficult, because it's just never been teased out in the way. It's like I pulled out, I have a rubber band ball in my office, and I pulled it out and said, This is the way that you see your emotions, and this is the way that you're your kid sees their emotions, and you have another big rubber band ball, and that's the way you guys see your relationship, because it's all you don't know where one begins in the other ends, and it all just seems like it's all crammed together.
So if we pull one rubber band off at a time again, that idea of eat the elephant one bite at a time, then then We're going to make a lot more sense of things and then be able to not feel so overwhelmed and it changes the the perspective of emotions and that's that seems to be what you're helping really people to do with this and I applaud your courage. Um, to put yourself out there. A lot of people, I think really misunderstood. I think a lot of men misunderstand stoicism is, you know, when you say I have to be stoic, I have to not feel and you're, you're, you're right. I love, I love this discussion because you're even helping to take me deeper into that truer interpretation of stoicism rather than being non emotional.
No, no, it's seeing the logic. It is seeing the logic to me with emotion and the value of life experience.
Erick: Yeah, and if you look at a lot of the ancient philosophers, like Socrates loved other people. He was a very generous person. He was always curious about humanity. That's the way that, why he always asked all these questions. It wasn't to show, look how right I am. It was to say,
Erik: Mhm.
Erick: I'm trying to understand the world. The world and humanity, so I'm going to ask all of these questions so that we can understand this together. Um, Marcus Aurelius talks very much about being affectionate and being compassionate and kindness and loving those around you with all of your heart. I mean, over and over he's exhorting these things.
And one of the things that I point out to people all the time about meditations is that it's not about his conquests or his successes. It's all about his emotional and internal struggles.
Erik: Mhm.
Erick: That's what the whole thing is about. It's not like we won this war and I did this thing and look at how great I am.
It was like, you know, golly, you know what, I, I failed today and this is what I failed at today and I'm trying and you can do better, Marcus, you know, you can do this and it's all about digging into those emotions. And
Erik: Yeah.
Erick: I think one of the, one of the things I realized this was after I got divorced about 20 years ago was that, I
recognized that my definition of masculinity was really messed up because I had kind of shied away from some, you know, I wasn't really sure what it meant to be masculine because my dad had been so violent. But in my mind, I recognize that I, you know, equated that with, with, uh, violence. And so I didn't have a lot of close guy friends.
I had plenty of close girlfriends of that, because I was kind of afraid of men because of my dad. And it was, it took me quite a big time to kind of re reestablish what that was. And there was somewhere I was going to go with this and I totally forgot where it was, but, um, Hmm.
Yeah, I lost the thread..
Erik: So the fear, the fear, the fear of masculinity, what did it have to do with that, that fear of masculinity in a ways and how it guided your behavior? You said that you realized that after your first marriage ended that, uh, you realized that, uh, that your masculinity was, uh, your view of it, your beliefs were kind of a little bit distorted.
Erick: Yeah, because like I said, my dad had been so violent so randomly and it, you know, so there was a fear around or trying to figure out what that meant to be masculine and I think that a lot of young men now are really struggling with that. And I think it's unfortunate because, you know, we see this almost divide of You know, people who go, who think that that toxic, tough masculinity is the only way to be a man and that anybody who's not like that is, is a wuss and you know, is, is effeminate and it's like, there's almost this and it's like, no, there's a balance in the middle of, I mean, masculinity is about being strong.
And part of that strength is, is being able to handle your emotions because if you can't handle your emotions, you are not a strong person.
Erik: Well, the perfect, I mean, cause we are seeing this concept of hyper masculinity. Just look around at our culture right now. Look around at how, how our political cultures changed and you see this hyper masculinity. And to me, it takes more courage. And I've said this to people for years to show sadness and tears and to express fears and feed things people feel guilt and shame about than it does just to hide it.
You know, when I was, when I was uh, when I was eight, my brother died, and that was my, you know, primal wound, I'd say, as Freud would have said. My dad cried for like 30 seconds. I remember we're watching the three stooges together. That's indelible in my mind Because my brother loved that show and and I think it reminded my dad of that and this was just days after And he started crying and I saw the tears come and he said i'm, sorry And he apologized for crying.
So what I internalized that was is that it is bad and wrong to cry. And then what did I do after that? I buried all my tears. What happened? In my early 20s when I say the dark days of my soul were, you know, that's when I got my therapy. I had buried all the sadness. I was not someone who liked to show anger, rage, or hatred because I saw the damage that it caused to others.
And I grew up being bullied. So then I had to bury that. So by the time I got my therapy, because I did not want to be here anymore. And I felt that I couldn't navigate this world. And I was a perfectionistic. perfectionist, and I felt nothing but failure, which I wasn't understanding. That was telling me it was time to learn.
It was time to change. I felt stupid. I felt unlovable. I felt like a disappointment from compared to what my brother would have been. All these things that I had to sort through. It took me years to sort through those things. I had a couple rounds of therapy. But in that, Even when the anger started to come out and remember in one of my therapy sessions, I started punching my leg because I started talking about how angry I felt that my dad left. And then the therapist I was working with said, you can't do that in here. And I just went, what? And that's why I was there to get to all the emotions. And even my emotions scared my therapist and it wasn't that I was yelling or screaming or threatening them It was just letting that intensity start to come out and that's again where when I started to learn through my own journey. That rage protects me when I feel in fear of my life or my integrity feels threatened.
Hate, anger, protects me when I feel threatened. Arrogance protects me with the shield of false pride. Flippancy protects me with the shield of non feeling. And I looked at everything in this universe every emotion has a positive purpose, it was just it was really a game changer. And one thing I wanted to bring back about what you're doing with the podcast is I am I do read a lot of zen, um, have a zen koan cards that I just let people pick.
I'm like, okay pick a card today to see what comes up. And one of my favorite cards is says make medicine from suffering. And that to me is exactly what you're doing. You've taken your suffering and you've begun to heal yourself. And when we heal ourself and we cease to be the patient, as it says, and we become the doctor, we realize that we're surrounded by a hospital full of people who are sick, who need healing and that what we're trying to heal from is what they say is the sickness of separateness. So again, that again, you brought together Zen with Stoicism and those great Zen teachers and the great Stoics. Again, more of a marriage of philosophies halfway around the world from each other.
Erick: I joke around that Stoicism, that Stoicism is Greco Roman Buddhism.
Erik: mmhm,
Erick: They are the same thing, just different language and different ideas surround it. But I did remember what it was I was going back to, um, earlier, that, uh, in trying to uncover some of that masculinity and understand that feeling, what I recognize is that most men have about three or four emotions.
They have, um, they can be happy, reasonably happy, and it's usually not a great, glorious joyousness. It's just happy. Okay, or neutral. Angry, and then occasionally sad, but not that deep grieving sadness that needs to come out in certain situations. Like when you lose your brother, they're afraid of grief.
They're afraid that that emotion is going to swallow them up. And so they, they have a hard time in doing that. And so by only having those, those three or four emotions like that, it robs life of so many things. And I kind of, I went from being a very emotional child in and you know, to kind of reaching that point where that was really kind of how I noticed that I was feeling.
And I'm like, I don't like this. And so, you know, I, after I got divorced, it was like, I wanted, I want to change back to how I was when I was a kid. I want to open up some of these emotions and become that, um, And I did a lot of work with that and really grew in those few years. And then I had a longer term relationship that unfortunately ended a few years ago.
But in that one, it was that I hadn't really dealt with a lot of the trauma and some of those deeper things, even though I had gone to therapy, it's just, I, hadn't been able to uncover those things because I didn't think that they really affected me as much as they had. And it took the stoicism and that objectivity to really get to that point where I could go, now I understand what these things are.
I can dig deep and I can go and I'm not afraid of those emotions anymore. And I'm not afraid of looking at those things and admitting that.
Erik: hmm.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Erick: not
Erik: Well, I want I want to comment about your for your emotions that the limit of emotions is, like I said, if each emotion is seen from a frequency standpoint as a different color or a different note, how can you paint a painting a rich painting that tells a wonderful story with four colors? How can you write a song in a symphony? With four notes you can't and that's where I think yes, so many people and and women also you see their bandwidth of emotions limiting too, especially as they feel like in order to live in this world almost They've many women have moved towards being similar to men because they think that is was going to help them in the work environment to be able to be good leaders.
We've shifted our culture, our our corporate structures more from more vertical to horizontal over times. And as we see really women stepping up to become leaders And the the the power of their leadership through the more full spectrum of emotion. And more of that love based respect versus the fear based respect we're gonna we're seeing better outcomes overall. So men men began to rule you thousands of years ago through wanting to look strong and express their strength over and then that evoked fear and then the idea of good and right almost became subjugated to strength so win became about strong.
That's why we fight wars. We fight wars to look strong and if we're strong and we win the war do we define the good and the right of culture? Whether it's political and or an actual war and or war in our family your dad defined what was good and right in your culture. Through his anger and rage and expression of strength, which then altered your ability to feel like you could learn in a balanced world, the value of all your emotions.
Instead, you basically, like you said, learn four. And one of the primary ones that you held onto was that disruption of fear. Does that make sense?
Erick: Exactly the, what do you mean by the disruption of fear?
Erik: Well, again, if every, if every emotion is a fixed frequency, it's a key in the keyboard. Then when that emotion gets put in motion, it is a disruption of that emotion. Our goal should not be to rid ourselves of our emotions. Our goal should be to seek understanding and, and what put those emotions in motion. And that's what I find that kind of that interesting play on words between motion and movement and emotion,
is that this movement of this feeling, this, that gives us a perspective or has its purpose in the world. So when, like I said, when I'm helping people, whether it's through talk therapy through just the educational stuff through hypnosis through ketamine. Um, the goal is that they understand the role that those emotions played in their life and they carry those with them not from a place of continuing to be in that disruption or making that noise inside their head, but they've returned it to its resting state.
So then what happens is when I have a new experience and that emotion's been resolved, then it gets, it gets pinged only from the, the, the amplitude or volume of that frequency is only as loud as the experience. It's not carrying the amplitude of all those past experiences with it. So if I add a disruption to a frequency that that's already at a 10 And this to me is why people have their issues of panic. And they have their issues of post traumatic stress and they have those issues of such deep depression. It's because all those emotions that and you know this in terms of frequencies and amplitude, all those emotions that are continuing to resonate inside You've just added to the amplitude and it overwhelms the ability for our cognitive and emotional defenses to insulate our conscious mind. And our conscious mind has been taught to be logical. Our conscious mind in essence has been taught to be stoic and how can we be stoic from this standpoint that you're expressing? Which is understanding emotion and why life is here if I see all these emotions as bad and or wrong and or weak and then I look outside myself and I see the outside world as bad and wrong and weak and I listened to your discussion before we talked.
I went to the one you talked about. Um, are you an optimist or pessimist? And you talked about your idea of pessimism and that you felt that you were more pessimistic, which to me, yeah, what's the, what are the emotions that go into pessimism? Fear, doubt, mistrust. Potential betrayal, hopelessness, helplessness, overwhelmed, maybe anger could be in there. So we start to see this constellation of emotion that feeds this perception, this belief system, because I believe that the pessimist is one aspect of you. It's a belief system in you that resonates with the outside world because you also have a very optimistic part of you too, and I heard you talk about optimism as well and that you think that the world has a lot of potential and we do have potential.
When we realize that yes, we are responsible for the ways that we perceive the world and we can shift that and we stop falling into that idea of learned helplessness, which is to me, just a variation of hopelessness. And we say, wait a second, I have the power to open this cage. I can step out of this cage. Well, what happens if I do? That's okay because pain is a perception like you said it's a perception of a thought of something that could happen. So what is fear trying to do at a deeper level? Any fear based emotion is saying I don't want you to experience pain. Some say you've already experienced enough pain.
That's not experience anymore. So don't do this. So pain all fear is trying to do is to help us and if we look at its progression from logic You To concern that says hey, dude there's something you might want to work on here because logic says hey, you have this and this and this to do. Okay. Then concern says Uh, you might need to do this and this and this to do or something could happen to do Worry says holy crap, dude.
You've got this and this to do or bad things are going to happen and you know, look ahead I think that that sky might be starting to fall then you get to to fear, you know, that's more full blown. It says Oh my gosh, what are you gonna do you take that progression all the way to petrified? And when you get to petrified, you are in that place of don't move or you're going to die.
Well, what is the death pain? I actually had a discussion with somebody. I said, so what happens if you die? What are you going to feel? He's like, well, I don't know. I said, well, if you cease to exist and you believe in that, are you going to feel pain? No. If you do graduate from this life and you move on to something else and everybody says it's this place of, of, of heaven and joy and peace, are you going to, is that going to hurt?
No. I said, so what do you really feel afraid of? Leaving people behind. Are you going to have any control over how those people respond after you leave this earth? No. So after that talk, he's like, Wow. I get it because it was the logic of…The logic of the way he saw the death that then evoke those emotions that created that disruption, the amplitude of those frequencies. So in that, I even talked to people about their defenses through talking about the technology that, that created, um, noise canceling headphones. Because that's a noise cancelling, that's understanding frequencies. And we understand the frequencies and you can measure those frequencies. Again, more emotional algebra here.
But when you can, because that's what went into noise cancelling headphones was physics and algebra and calculus and all that math. When you understand that frequency and you put a phase shift in an equally, equal opposite, you know, of the same frequency, in other words, a phase shifted frequency, you are matching the height that the amplitude of that frequency at its peak, it cancels it out.
But why don't our defenses work and why do noise cancelling headphones only cancel to a certain amplitude? Because the drivers of that noise cancelling headphones aren't as loud. Our emotional defenses and cognitive defenses cannot be as loud as the amplitude of the emotions that we are constantly experiencing inside that we're trying to deflect and hide inside.
Erick: I think it's like, when I talk about that, you know, I look at emotions very much like waves. And it's like, so the idea is to become a surfer rather than fearing the big waves, learn how to ride the big waves because they're still going to come. And, uh, kind of two thoughts on some of the things you said there were, you know, about looking at life as an emotional experience and we're here to learn those things.
I mean that, and that's what the Stoics, they have a term called Amor Fati, meaning to love your fate. And that is that you love everything that happens to you. One, because it's going to happen. So it's reality. So that's the first thing is that if you can love it. Then great. If you want to hate it, sure.
You can hate it, but the universe is going to be like, I don't care if you hate it, it's going to happen anyway. So that you can look at everything with a sense of awe, a sense of love and trying to, at the very minimum, just accept it rather than fight against it. Um, It, it can be very helpful because you never know when the worst thing that happens to you can be the absolute best thing that ever happened in your life.
And there've been plenty of people that I've talked to who are like, yeah, this horrible thing happened to me, you know, 10 years ago. And I said, yeah, but if that horrible thing hadn't happened to you, would you be the person you are today? And are you happy with who you are? And they pause and think about it like, no, I don't think I would have become who I am today.
And I really like who I am today. And I said, so that horrible thing wasn't so horrible, was it? And they're like, it's got a good point there.
Erik: hmm.
Erick: So for me, a big shift that happened a couple of years ago, and it's episode 218 of my podcast, I sat down and I wrote down everything I didn't like about myself because I was like, Why is it that I need this validation from other people?
And you mentioned that earlier validation to feel okay with me as being me. Sorry for the noise. I've got construction going on here, but, um, but
Erik: We all got construction on going in here, right?
Erick: well, they're doing
Erik: are all around. See, life just happened for us, not to us. It perfectly elucidated what we're talking about in real life experience.
Erick: Yeah.
But that validation that I felt like I needed to be okay with me. So I sat down and I wrote down everything I didn't like about myself. And it was so that I wasn't afraid of it anymore because I was looking at it head on. And I looked at it and I was like, that's it? That's all that's on the list?
There's nothing on here that's so scary. And it was, it was a scary exercise. I'm like, Oh, I'm going to hate doing this. This is awful. Why am I doing this? Then I got done with the list and I was like, there's nothing on here that's really all that bad. And I can accept every single one of these things.
I don't have to love it. I don't have to even like it. But I can just accept it. One, because like I said, with Amor Fati, it's, it's reality. It is something I don't like about myself and it's okay. And I want, when I walk people through that exercise, sometimes at first they're terrified to do that because they're like, Oh, I don't want to do that.
That, Oh, Oh no, no, no. I can't look at all of those things. Cause at least it's going to be terrible. And then when they actually do the list, I'm like, are those things that terrible? And they're like, Oh, they're really not. But our, our, again, it's our perception that, Oh, if I look at all the awful things about me, I'm just going to find piles of shit and it's going to be terrible.
And
Erik: Well, and there's a couple get there's a couple great things there I always say that what a shit become It becomes compost. What do we do with compost? We plant what becomes our future in it. So one of the first video, I have, you know, some of my shorts that are part of the first post I want to do. I, uh, during COVID I was doing segments called the daily dose of sunshine for AccuWeather just to bring some sunshine to people.
People's life during what felt like a dark time. And I did a quick two minute thing on compost and I have a compost pile in my backyard and what really the value of compost is and what went into it and what it became. And that's how I see life. As long as we keep things buried in darkness, they can't breathe.
They can't get the oxygen it needs to transform the, so that the bacteria can do what they do to transform what we feel are the. The crap on our life to good stuff. And then what do we do? We cultivate our gardens with it, you know So one thing I also I love our conversation because we're touching on things each of us They're saying as you talked about you see life as a wave.
There's also a zen koan that says the wave and the sea are one And sometimes in life people feel like the wave and they feel like they're going to be crashed upon the shores of life. And the wave potentially could, they fear destruction. The other side is they can see that everything, each wave has the power of the sea behind it. So it is all about perspective and as we shift that perspective to realize where the whole sea. You know, then that's where we find our power. So we are all part of one great sea of living sea of being. The problem is is we're we're we're the the different molecules in the ocean are fighting each other versus working together to see what we can create.
It's the same thing as you can be polished up by life or ground down by it. And a real quick aside is we have a, we have a, a, a lot of, that we're building a house on in Cabo San Lucas, Mexico. And a quarter mile is this rock formation. And on this rock formation, when you look to the side, there's this rock that sits out that looks almost like an Aztec, um, King or something that's got it's it's it's just the head.
But I call the four rock formation the old man in the sea. And I talked about with with people I show them that picture and I say imagine if that rock felt afraid, terrified of what the sea would do to it. And it fought the sea and it fought the the erosion and the winds and the rains and all the things that over thousands of years shaped it. And it said, no, I will not change. I will resist change. And it remained what it was. It never would have become this amazing to me to me. It is inspirational to me It shows me the magic of what can happen when sea and sky and earth and time all work together. And that is exactly what you're talking about.
Is that amor fati, right? That was is that what it was called is and what you're what you're also what you're also elucidating is that idea, if when you people when you have people do that that exercise you said they felt terrified. Terror says this is going to feel painful. This is going to stink because I’m gonna unearth all of this crappy stuff in my life. So the terror is saying don't do that to avoid pain. They have to have a leap of faith. To do that that will then guide them to find their truth. So remember what I said, I believe faith was was the gap or the space that isn't empty. It's got a light there, but the gap and space between fear and truth and we find that when we reach truth. We're okay. And that that to me is again what you have helped me learn. To see so much deeper into and to stoicism today that has been, you know, your gift to me and I've thoroughly enjoyed, you know, this discussion.
It's been a great discussion. We both are able to really this is collaboration. This is what we're here to do. This is why you're doing your podcast. This is why I do mine. This is why you're moving to coaching. Because what you're doing is making a difference and you're helping people to see Yes, the logic of their emotions the purpose of their experiences that there is value in everything. There is no waste because even the waste becomes what tomorrow will grow from.
Erick: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of reminds me, I think it was Rumi who said, how will your gem be polished if you fear every rub?
Erik: Exactly exactly. There's your greco roman buddhism, right? Is
Erick: He was a Sufi
Erik: he was You're
right, he was That,
Erick: so yeah, but, uh, I love pulling from all kinds of different traditions. I find there's so much wisdom out there. And so I, I cherry pick the wisdom that from everywhere because I think that nobody has a monopoly on good ideas and we should pull all of these things in together and that through that we can actually help bring a more enlightened approach to the world.
And to me stoicism is just, you know, it's, it's what worked for me. And, you know, for other people it's Buddhism. For some people it's religion and, but I just found that the rationality worked very well with the way that I view the world. And it was just a way for me to rationally look at my emotions and take a lot of that fear out of it and be able to manage things in a much better way.
So, but yeah. And it's, it's very similar to what, to, you know, a lot of, like you said, your emotional algebra. And so I really appreciate, uh, you coming on here today and discussing that. And if. Uh, before we go, I want you, why don't you go ahead and tell my audience where they can find more about you.
Erik: Yeah, well, you know what you said just when you said that when we pull, I pull a lot of good ideas, what you perfectly express there is equity that everybody has different gifts, strengths, weaknesses, handicaps, wisdom, experience, knowledge and understanding. And when we pull that all together, that is where we find balance.
That is how we find true greatness in us all. That we all have greatness in us. And that to me is the purpose of our journey, the purpose of our place here. So, um, You can find, I have a, my website, which I need to get fixed now, I'm aware of, um, is drepresents.com, drepresents.com. My podcast is on, uh, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube.
It's on video on YouTube and Spotify. It's also on Apple. Um, I also have a YouTube channel. I have, uh, I'm now doing shorts. I call them your empower minutes. Uh, so emotional algebra, Dr. D, Dr. E, your empowerment is those are starting up on tick tock, Instagram, uh, YouTube, you know, all those, all those tick tock, all those different platforms, so little by little I'm getting out there.
My ultimate goals are to. Speak and teach around the world. Um, I used to do workshop community building workshops in Haiti and actually my most recent guest that that's going to air tomorrow. At midnight, um, actually, uh, it was one of the Contacts a great friend a brother. I call him from Haiti Uh one of a very wise soul very wise being who really could be considered a Haitian stoic .You know in the way you hear him approach life um But uh, yeah, that's going to be the next episode and I want to take that community building idea because to me if you help the adults and young adults understand how they've been broken and are breaking by their culture. You can then help kids grow up in the world that's meant to be, because kids come here with equity and they're socialized into hierarchy. So as I can hopefully take that model, continue to teach to others, have them teach others, and then take it to different pockets of the world. Uh, then hopefully we can bring all this together in that form of equity and help people understand the value and purpose of emotions and the value and purpose of working together in this world, having power with rather than power over.
Erick: Yeah. There's a lot to unpack in this episode. I really appreciate you taking the time. So this has been a very fun and enlightening conversation. So,
Erik: Absolutely. I enjoyed it greatly too. thank you
Erick: So that's the end of this week's Stoic Coffee Break. As always, be kind to yourself, be kind to others, and thanks for listening.
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