Transcript
Erick: Hello friends, my name is Erick Cloward and welcome to the Stoic Coffee Break. The Stoic Coffee Break is a weekly podcast where I take aspects of Stoicism and do my best to break them down to the most important points.
I talk about my thoughts on Stoic philosophy as well as my experiences, both my successes and my failures, and hope that you can learn something from them all within the space of a coffee break. So this week’s episode is an interview with one of my podcast listeners.
So Shawn, how do you pronounce your last name?
Shawn Sarazin: Sarazin
Erick: Okay. Just want to make sure I got that right. Contacted me a couple of weeks ago, telling me about some of the struggles that he’d been through in his life. And it really resonated with me and I wanted to bring him on the show because I thought that his experience could be something that you could really learn a lot from and how to deal with incredible challenges from a stoic perspective.
So let’s go ahead and jump into it. So Shawn, go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself.
Shawn Sarazin: Yeah, I’m a 51. I live in Minnesota, lived here all my life. And what led me to talk to you I’ve been listening to your podcast for a long time and you had an episode in July about. Acceptance was your topic acceptance to anger. I think and what really hit me was just the whole acceptance thing. And what it how it related to me in my life.
My left leg has been a problem for me since I was. in high school. I’ve had wounds that don’t heal and through the years I’ve gone through stages where it’s been healed and then wounds would open up and develop. I’m not diabetic, but there was underlying circulation problems. And in the last three years, as things progressed not in a favorable way my pain got more intense. The wounds weren’t healing and were diseased and we had tried different interventions.
I finally realized I needed to take a divergent path of treatment and after a lot of reflection, like from the end of November till middle of December, I decided to have my leg amputated. That was incredibly difficult time for me, I didn’t consult with family so much. My partner said, I will support you in whatever you decide to do, but it was very clear that I was the one who was going to have to make decision. And, and evaluating my pain levels, which was chronic all day, every day constantly taking ibuprofen and Tylenol to keep things at bay.
I made that decision in the, in the middle of December. The Mayo Clinic is where I was going. I live in Minnesota. I’m fortunate to have that. Really in my backyard. And the, the team at the wound clinic was terrific and understood where I was coming from. They got me immediately hooked up with a prosthetist to start talking about what life is like after an amputation, and they set me up with just a world class. orthopedic surgeon as well.
But I knew my life was going to change dramatically and that I was going to need to accept a new way of living. And in our stoic book, in our readings, we have a lot of stuff from Aurelius and from Seneca about acceptance, but their passages are little passages and you do spend a lot of time thinking about it yourself. I am also a fully qualified member of Alcoholics Anonymous, and I’ve been a member there for 14 years.
One of the stories in our, in our book is called Acceptance Was the Answer and it’s written by a gentleman who, who really makes my disease a reality, pale. Like he was doing pills and drugs and, you know, injecting himself, but he has a very endearing way. And I think it is how he’s self deprecating and why it relates to so many people. It’s probably the most popular story in the back of the book.
But I started reading that every day. In my morning routine, drinking my coffee and doing my readings, I incorporated that not so much to focus on my disease, but to focus on the idea of acceptance and a couple of passages in there that really relate, talk about, you know, acceptance is the answer to all my problems today.
“When I’m disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, or thing or situation, some fact of my life, unacceptable to me. And I can find no serenity until I accept that person place thing or situation as being exactly the way it’s supposed to be at this moment.”
And, you know, that passage just really hit me like, I am going to have to accept that. This is what my life is like. And then I told myself, even as I was reading this. I can read it all, but the acceptance is really going to kick in when I wake up from surgery. That’s when I’m really going to have to start practicing acceptance. But the thing is, when I woke up from surgery on the afternoon of January 17th, I was like, okay, here we are. And I knew things were different. Like, I could feel how swollen my leg was. From the trauma when they, when they cut through your femur, it’s no small feat and your body doesn’t like that.
Erick: Yeah.
Shawn Sarazin: But I felt that peace of like, here we are, now it’s time to get going and focused on my recovery. I didn’t keep reading it. It, it really was ingrained in my head, but I had a new way of looking at it. Things and accepting. And I, as I’ve gone through these recent months and now I have a prosthetic, I am able to walk and walking with the assistance of a walker still. But you know, last week when I was home, I was able to walk around my neighborhood. And I’ve lived in this house for 10 and a half months. I’ve never done that.
The pain was too intense for me to do that. And it’s so freeing and wonderful. And I really think about this acceptance and the, and meditating on that so intently for 30 days and what that did for me to get me through. I recently had my job taken away as part of a reduction in force. I heard very clearly as my boss was reading his statement, Your position is being eliminated and that was like a neon sign. It was like, I am not being eliminated. My position is, but this acceptance practice and meditation to really help me with that.
It was like, I was in shock. Don’t get me wrong.
Erick: Yeah.
Shawn Sarazin: I sat with that for a, for a day, but then it was like, okay, this is the situation. Let’s get moving. Let’s start looking for a job. I don’t have to sit here and wallow on things. This is my situation.
Erick: Wow. And that’s, yeah. And so when you, when you sent me that and kind of explained some of the things, obviously it was much shorter than what you explain now. My first reaction was a mixture of, Oh my God, that must have been so incredibly challenging to make that decision. Because, you know, here you have a limb, but it’s just not working for you and it’s, but it’s, it’s still a part of you and knowing that your life would be forever changed in a completely just in a, in a completely dynamic, not dynamic, what’s the word I’m thinking of a dramatic way that there would just, you know, and it’s, it’s kind of like, there’s no coming back.
You know, it’s like once that’s gone, it’s gone. And so I’m sure that all those thoughts probably went through your head at that point.
Shawn Sarazin: There was a lot of that. It was going to change how I navigated my house. Simple tasks like taking a shower was going to forever be changed. I love to cook and, and people in our home would be able to eat if I wasn’t cooking, but they’re not cooks. So learning to adapt and work in the kitchen was different. And, and here’s a part two. I, I, I went to therapy.
That’s been part of my toolkit along with stoicism and my AA program. Having to, and we spent an hour one day talking about needing to accept help from others. Like there’s another thing of acceptance. I’m kind of fiercely independent. I think you are as well. And we, we pride ourselves on getting along. And so having to ask for help and accept help sometimes, because I couldn’t get initially like a cup of coffee. I needed someone to bring that to me in the morning, but then I found a way. Running a little relay race through our place and take a few steps with my walker, set the coffee cup on a table, take a few more steps, move it down. I finally made it work.
But early on, right accepting help from my partner or from my kids and understanding like people are happy to help and, and kick in. So that was another big thing for acceptance for me in those early months people brought meals to us people at work sent over snacks and books and, and I, I was like, oh my gosh. Realizing how blessed I was, but accepting it and, and it really made me focus, I guess, too, on my gratitude. I’m so grateful for everything right now.
And then people at the hospital or at the, the PT people learning to walk is no easy task and I’m blessed through insurance and my doctors. I have a, a Ottobock C leg. And it has a microprocessor knee in it. But it’s not just as simple as putting this leg on and starting to walk. And the therapist team were terrific, but I needed to accept their help. And their guidance they’ve done this a thousand times. I’m doing it for the first time. So being open to listen to ideas, to try new things to trust that this leg is going to hold me up. But that was a whole hour, right? Leaning back and forth and trying different tactics. But being open to accept that help as well. And now I look at where I’m at, you know I’m just so blessed. So,
Erick: That’s incredible. So has, has the chronic pain then pretty much dissipated?
Shawn Sarazin: I haven’t taken a Tylenol in months. Probably since,
Erick: Nice.
Shawn Sarazin: I think probably March, it was, you know, when I stopped taking Tylenol and Ibuprofen. I can stand in my kitchen now on two feet. I can’t walk around completely yet, but I can stand in one place and have a conversation with people and I’m not in pain. I’m so mindful of that.
Erick: It must be. Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. So for the, over the past couple of years, I’ve had different points where I pinched nerves in my upper back. So once on the left side, once on the right side, and then 3 weeks ago on the left side again, and having that chronic shooting pain down your arm. And in my upper shoulder to the point where even just, you know, reaching over, lifting up a cup hurts, you know, and it’s not to say that I completely understand your pain, but I can understand that chronic pain.
And luckily for me, knowing that, you know, going to PT. And once it would heal over, it would be fine, you know, I at least had that looking forward and I’m sure in your situation having that chronic pain with no, no real end in sight, I’m sure that probably weighed in your decision to go ahead and get that
Shawn Sarazin: Yeah. It was understanding in the way I rational or thought through it. I say rationalized, but I deserve,
Erick: Facing reality.
Shawn Sarazin: I deserve better. Like we all, we all do. And we, we tough through things. We, you know, I, I was optimistic early on when we were doing interventions a few years ago, that things would get better. And it just didn’t. And, and so accepting like this is that situation here, here we come with acceptance again.
But I did not have to accept that as a way of living. And really the wounds were so diseased and my body was spending so much energy. Trying to heal my leg and try to get back to normal. I was so run down all the time, three days after surgery, still just in the hospital room, I had the realization like, wow, I don’t feel run down. And visitors who came in commented like, you don’t look as ashen or, you know, you look more full of life. So that, you know, that was, you know, we like to hear some of these comments and I, I don’t accept those as well or didn’t then this meditation though has really gotten me through giving me a whole different look on things.
So the things I can accept and so we, we’ve changed our, our way, I’m adapting to the leg, I’m getting around we have a two story home, I can go up the stairs now walking not trying to hop on one leg, which I did for a while, or pushing myself up on my butt, and it’s just so liberating to be able to do that but yes, I, I don’t have the chronic pain, I don’t have that run down feeling, I have a terrific amount of energy, and Welcome every opportunity of the day.
Erick: Excellent. So do you, I know this is, I guess, kind of a weird way to phrase this. Do you find that well, I guess, have you chatted with other people who are in the same situation? Is there like a support group that
Shawn Sarazin: I just recently joined some Facebook groups for above the knee amputees. And then the manufacturer of the prosthetic has some groups. So I’ve been going on there and just realizing how blessed I am. And then, yes, how can I help others? That’s what I really need to do now is be, how can I share my experience? Take inspiration from others who have been through it before me. I, I could switch out the bottom, I suppose, for one of those blade runner legs, but I am not a runner. So as, you know, as the Paralympics are coming up I will watch and I’ll be interested. But that’s just not a, a, path I will go down, but that’s fine.
Erick: So do you find that and I know this is about comparison, but do you find that you’re kind of ahead of the curve as far as that acceptance than some of the other people
Shawn Sarazin: I might be. I had time to prepare for it. My orthopedic surgeon told me that so many of the patients that they see when they do an amputation, it’s most of the time due to a car accident, a fall from a ladder, or some industrial accident.
Erick: Hmm.
Shawn Sarazin: a lot of those patients just wake up having had that performed in an effort to save their life. So I was in a unique position. Does everybody, you know, other people do have to make the choice, you know, cancer patients or, you know, diabetics who, who suffer some of this. I think my intensity certainly helped me get to a point. Where I was at I think some people are, they’re struggling with that aspect, right? That their life has changed.
So, and some people are not as deeply sensitive a person as I am. Some people are ready or can just get up and get going. I think with the life I have led and how I developed early on in my life. Um, you know, it took me down a path of substance abuse and alcohol. That was my only drug of choice as it were. I didn’t get into anything else. I, I got to that point where I had to do that.
Erick: Mm hmm.
Shawn Sarazin: I don’t have that level of sensitivity. Maybe they can just get up and be like, okay, this is what I have to go with. But I needed a different path. And I knew. With the program that I’ve been on I’ve been sober for a long time, but really got into the stoicism and established a morning routine, probably in 2018 and I think that’s when I became acquainted with your podcast and the work you were doing. I knew I needed to do something different. So
Erick: Nice. Nice. Yeah. I think this is probably one of the most I guess pure examples of recognizing and accepting your fate, you know, amor fati, that rather than looking at this as an awful thing, you know, it’s just, it is what it is and that ability to embrace it and to actually make that choice.
Like I said, I, I, yeah. After you had sent me that thing, I thought about what would I do if I were in that situation? How would I handle that? Would I be able to be as resilient as that? I mean, I would hope so, but I’ve never been tested that way, but You know, I think you reach a point in your life like you did, where you’re just like, okay, what are my options and, you know, options continue suffering like this or take dramatic action and, you know, hope for the best at that point.
And so I think that, yeah, that’s something to be applauded. And do you, do you feel like you’re missing out because of it? Or is it, is it strictly, you know, you see it as purely
Shawn Sarazin: It’s just upside right now. There’s so much I’m able to do. I, I had a way to get in a pool before when I had all my bandages on and my leg to keep those dry, there was a, there’s a large orange rubber sock I had that I could put on over that. Now I can just go and get in the pool or a hot tub. You know, I have to take my leg off. That’s another step. And I have to think about how I’m going to get in and out of this thing. That’s trivial at the end of the day, right?
There’s so much I can enjoy. The, the freedom of, of moving around the house, cooking meals, being out at the grill in the back working on that and not being in pain and in not leaning anymore. I was on just 1 leg for about 6 months, 7 months.
Erick: Hmm.
Shawn Sarazin: and I learned to make it work, but there’s a whole new freedom in this for me. So we’re going to go to the Minnesota State Fair next week. The girls and I, gone the last three years, but it has been a challenge. You know, we get around, we’d get something, then we got to find a place to sit down. And we were there for four or five hours and I was just, Burned out, exhausted, and in pain the rest of the day and the rest of the day was come home and lay in bed with my legs up to try to recover. Now it’s like,
Erick: So you’re going to have some deep fried Snickers
Shawn Sarazin: Oh, I’ve re-imagined my life without sugar this year. But yes, that day is going to be a day to eat whatever I want. And a deep fried Snickers is a delightful treat. I know some people think that sounds gross, but until you try it, It’s really something else, but we’re gonna, we’re gonna tour that fair in a way that we haven’t in the last three years. So, I’m really excited for that.
Erick: Nice. Nice. So, another question for you, and this is something that I ask when I have people come on who have faced incredible challenges like this, do you think that the challenges that you’ve faced in your life? Have been overall a net positive to help you become the person that you are today, meaning if you didn’t have this challenge or the challenges that you faced with, you know, alcoholism, the, the, the chronic, you know, I guess, disease that was part of your leg and now having choosing amputation, do you, how do you feel that those have contributed to your character and would you have become the same person without those challenges?
Shawn Sarazin: There’s no way I would be the same person. In addiction, we’re, we’re isolated. We’re pushing ourselves away from people. And this isn’t Shawn’s original thought. This is. Thoughts from others, but the opposite of addiction is not just being sober and stop drinking. It’s being connected to people in the world around you. That has contributed so much to my life.
Then jumping into stoicism when I did being part of. Ryan Holiday’s community for a while reading the daily Stoic making that a practice having therapy as well the people I surround myself with, I have some wonderful friends in, in, in all of this journey, people who have supported me and been there to love me and help me. Even when I didn’t want to accept help all the time, they were still there. I would not be the same person if I had not seen these challenges and embrace them the way I did. You mentioned resilient a few minutes ago, and I’ve been thinking about that in the last three weeks. If you would have called me resilient a year ago, I would have laughed at you.
And, and shrugged off that label. Not thinking I was, and I am, I embrace that now as well. Like I really realize I am someone who’s resilient. I’ve come through a lot and now I have an obligation to help others. Giving back is going to what be something that helps propel me even further. I think so.
Erick: Yeah. Well, it kind of reminds me of a quote from Seneca where it’s like, you know, I pity those who have never been tested because they have never struggled to find out their own strength, you know, and because I think a lot of us, when we have trials in our lives and we have things that, that don’t work out the way that we want that make life hard.
We look at those things when we could complain about them. We’re like, ah, if only this would happen, or if only it would happen this way without recognizing that those challenges are the thing that helped you to develop the strength to become that better person. That if you didn’t have those challenges, you’d probably just be, you know, you wouldn’t be the person you are.
You wouldn’t be, you wouldn’t have that strength otherwise. You know, it’s like they talk about these people who, you know, come from generational wealth, who never have to work and never have to really struggle with anything are some of the most miserable people that you can find. It’s like, there’s no challenge in their life because they have had everything given to them.
And without those challenges, we never know what, we never know what. We can do, we never know where our edges are. We never know how to push through those things and develop the characteristics and the strengths that we actually want. So I find that I’ve, that’s something I’ve been meditating on a lot lately.
It’s, you know, as I’ve been switching careers and moving into things that are uncomfortable for me, you know, reaching out to people and, and, you know, talking about my coaching program and, and trying to get people on board. That’s a whole new skill for me. And it’s scary and it’s hard and it’s like, ah, but, you know, You know, because I’m used to just getting a job and sitting behind a desk and, you know, working away because I was a software developer for 25 years and the CTO, so I never had to worry about those things.
And so it’s, it’s challenged me to face a lot of my own insecurities and, you know, develop skills that I didn’t have before of, you know, reaching out to strangers and saying, Hey, this is what I’m working on. Would this be something that, that might be something helpful for you? And not having that fear of rejection and taking it personally, you know, that’s, that’s been a hard thing because I’m, you know, I was a bit of a people pleaser.
And so it’s like, I don’t want people to not like me. And so if I ask them and they say, no, that’s them rejecting me. And now it’s just like, you know, Hey, this is something I think could be really helpful for you. What do you think? Okay. Yeah, it would be helpful for you. Or no, not, not your cup of tea.
Totally cool. It was so great chatting with you and, you know, and just relaxing and recognizing that. That I’ve had to overcome a lot of my own doubts and insecurities that way. And it’s obviously not the same type of struggle that you’ve been going through, but everybody has their own battles and everybody needs different things that are going to help them push through.
The other day I was talking to I did a podcast episode, which will be coming out soon with a guy who is a Vet, not a Vietnam vet an Iraq vet. And he was only a month into his tour when his Humvee that he was driving went over a roadside bump. Yeah. And he ended up getting burned about 40 percent of his body.
And, you know, he was, he was handsome and he was a bit vain. He’s like, I used to have this gorgeous hair and everything. And you know, he’s got scars on his face and everything. And in chatting with him and talking through that, you know, I said, would you have become the person today? That you were comfortable, happy with who you are, you’ve developed a lot of these skills and these strains if that thing hadn’t happened to you, and he’s just like, possibly, but it would have taken so much longer, you know, and he’s like, so, yeah, can I say it’s the best thing that ever happened to me?
It’s like, no, but it was definitely one of the best things to happen to me because. It turned me into who I am today.
Shawn Sarazin: I 100 percent relate with that. So all of these things have happened to make me be where I am to give me this outlook. I’ve strengthened relationships with my kids and my partner and people around me through all this. And they were, they were great before and supportive of me through things. But I, I think it’s so much different Now, because of this and because of, you know, taking this action and having this decision, so don’t..
Erick: For me, I find it interesting what the difference between, you know, the people, I’m sure there’s plenty of other people who face similar issues and stuff like that. What do you think is kind of the, well, I guess you’ve, you’ve said this multiple times you know, kind of the defining characteristic. What is it about you that made it so that you can work through this and choose that versus other people who would would have not taken that. You know, it’s kind of like, what is, how is it that you were able to swim while others sink?
Shawn Sarazin: I don’t know how to answer that. I think it’s the sum of all this learning and journey that I’ve been on and the the Marcus quote, you know, understanding there’s an obstacle in the way. The only way to go. I could not go around it. You know, this was one I had to go through. The impediment to action advances action that that advanced me. I know that if I didn’t have all this all these tools in my tool kit. Whether it’s the podcast or the books or people sharing their experience, I probably could have gotten there. I don’t know that I would be as content or wonderful as I feel today without all that stuff. So,
Erick: Nice. Yeah. Like I said, when I, when I heard that story, I was just like, wow. And I really, you know, took a few minutes and just thought about what would I do in that situation. And I’m so glad to see that it’s, it’s. It was the right choice. And, you know, again, like you said, just being full of life again, because your body isn’t fighting off something that, that is just draining all your energy. So it’s kind of like you’ve been, in a way, you know, kind of quote the Christian thing, you’ve been born again, my friend.
All right. Well, is there. I appreciate your time on this. Is there anything else that you would like to share with my audience before we before we sign off on this?
Shawn Sarazin: Just the understanding we are all stronger than we think and we will get through things. We I didn’t think this was something I would have to take on. Or would but I’ve come through it. I can’t imagine, you know, I look forward to listening to this episode with your, with your other guests. I can’t imagine something like that. But in the same way, other people can’t imagine my situation, right? So we are stronger than we think. We will come through it except help from others. That was another big thing for me, being willing to open and accept that. So there’s a lot of great lessons through all this. I should probably collate them a little bit better. So,
Erick: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I really appreciate it. So, and like I said, I just, I, you know, I appreciate your courage in that and your willingness to share that, that experience. And I can imagine that just, just being willing from the beginning to just accept this. You know, accept that that’s your life afterwards, probably just sped the whole process along because I’m sure plenty of people are going through that, even if they’ve made the same choices, you know, might get stuck in that, that feeling of the unfairness of it, that it shouldn’t be this way. And rather than focusing on the unfairness of it, just recognizing. This is what is and how can I make the best of this situation?
Shawn Sarazin: absolutely. I should have been on my legs sooner than I was on my prosthetic. But I developed an abscess, which led to a wound and a tunnel. And I had to wait for that to completely heal. Before I could get into my prosthetic. That was another element. And just as you were saying, there’s nothing I can do about this. This is out of my hands.
Erick: You just have to accept it for what it is. Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for being on my podcast and talking about this. This is, for me, this is a, I really appreciate real life examples of this where, you know, I can talk with people about You know, here’s, here’s how this stuff works that the stoics weren’t, you know, imagining things or, or, you know, having these crazy ideas that weren’t applicable, but that these are real life.
Principles that you can, if you just apply them and they can be applied in so many situations that they can help you through things that otherwise. You know, other people may not, may not have come through this. They may have fallen into a depression. Now they didn’t have their leg anymore. Or whereas for you, you saw it as I’m getting a whole new life back.
And, and, you know, just, this is, this is your life from now on and appreciating it for what it is. And so I’m so grateful that you are willing to share your story with me. So thanks for
Shawn Sarazin: Thanks for all the work you’re doing, Erick. This is a, I’ve been listening for a long time. Can tell you’ve put the work into it. It’s helped me. I know it’s helping others. So thank you for having me.
Erick: No, well, thank you for saying that. So I appreciate it. When, when people reach out to me, let me know how this has helped them. And mostly it’s just me talking about things I’m struggling with and trying to, you know, this is how I do it. And hopefully you can learn something from it because, you know, I found a place in my life where.
I’m a lot happier and I’ve learned to manage my mind in a way that that keeps me from too much anxiety, too much stress and just accept the things that happen as they come. And luckily, I hope, you know, I hope that I never have to deal with anything as, as difficult as you’ve had to. But if I do, I would hope that I would be able to be up to the challenge like you have been.
So thanks for being a great
Shawn Sarazin: Thanks, Erick.
Erick: Thank you. So that’s another episode of the Stoic Coffee Break. Thanks again for listening. And as always, be kind to yourself and be kind to others. And if you aren’t following me on social media, I would really appreciate it if you would. You can reach me on Instagram and threads at stoic.coffee and on LinkedIn, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, all the other ones at StoicCoffee, all one word. Thanks again for listening.
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